Talk:2022 Kharkiv counteroffensive/Archive 1

Archive 1

Second Battle of Kharkov in the 1940s

Resolved

This counteroffensive bears a very significant resemblance to German movements during the Second Battle of Kharkov, although I couldn't find any sources drawing the comparison. I think the similarities are worth some brief coverage in the article. 2603:7080:1E39:6663:B846:30D3:F26D:8321 (talk) 18:00, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree, the near encirclement at izyum yesterday was along a front almost exactly identical to the offensive AnAustralianHistoryBuff (talk) 02:46, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Please find some reliable sources which say this, otherwise it's original research which we can't use. Jr8825 • Talk 02:53, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah they both have one going from modern day Bakalia area. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:57, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

User:AnAustralianHistoryBuff and User:Jr8825, the source below makes this comparison. https://www.politico.eu/article/liberated-ukrainians-embrace-troops-kharkiv-ukraine-russia-war/ Mawer10 (talk) 15:39, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for finding this. "The move to impose a stranglehold around Izyum, a town with a pre-war population of 46,000, has rekindled memories of a major encounter fought in almost exactly the same territory in World War II." It seems reasonable to mention in this article that the Second World War battle happened in the same area. Jr8825 • Talk 15:47, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

User:Jr8825, looks great like this. Mawer10 (talk) 20:47, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

That's actually the quote straight from the article! We'd need to put it in our own words first. Jr8825 • Talk 21:15, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Jr8825, how about that: “The move to dominate the surroundings of Izium was similar to a war fought there during World War II in which the Germans launched a major blow in the Second Battle of Kharkov against the Soviet Army.” Mawer10 (talk) 23:14, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

I've now added a mention to the "Counteroffensive" summary section. Thanks for your help. Jr8825 • Talk 23:33, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Units

UAF: -92nd OMBR

-80th AirAssault Brigade

-3rd Tank Brigade

-25th Airborne Brigade

-Azov SSO 'Kraken'

All proven by: https://militaryland.net/maps/deployment-map/ 92nd OMBR is proven by pictures too.

RAF: -Elements of the 3rd Corps

Proof:https://twitter.com/ControlCompli8/status/1568652373547171840/photo/1 "O" in an upside down triangle has been the symbol of the 3rd Corps since they've been deployed. Shhssh (talk) 22:01, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

first guards tank army (Russian) was stationed in Izyum and partook in this battle

source:https: https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1569550041194405890 AnAustralianHistoryBuff (talk) 07:38, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Not "opportunistic"

Seems that the Kharkiv operation was planned as the main offensive by the Ukrainian govt and that the Kherson "offensive" was merely a diversionary tactic. Ukrainian officials and military leaders have confirmed that Kharkiv was the main push to begin with.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/10/ukraines-publicised-southern-offensive-was-disinformation-campaign DojoIrl (talk) 00:38, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I've removed the "opportunistic" quotes but haven't yet added coverage of the misinformation campaign. Jr8825 • Talk 02:52, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Which in turn is opportunistic in the event that Russia DID move soldiers instead of bringing new ones luckily it turned in Ukraine's favour Dawsongfg (talk) 00:56, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Added section "prelude" to discuss this earlier today. Unburnable (talk) 22:42, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

outcome

I doubt the offensive will continue once izyum and the north is mopped up. if attacks do continue it should really then be added to a new page. I think that once this battle is over (if the current situation continues) the result sections should call this a decisive ukrainian victory because lets face it the russians have effectively been routed and the initiative of the war has completely shifted. AnAustralianHistoryBuff (talk) 06:41, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

a) We need sourcing which supports that, otherwise is WP:OR.

b) Any descriptive word alongside 'victory' is against WP:MILMOS#INFOBOX. Melmann 10:05, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

First wait until the goodwill gesture is completed. We will then decide what to call it. Super Ψ Dro 12:00, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, any further counterattacks by Ukraine in the area should be called the Luhansk counteroffensive. 2603:7080:1E39:6663:88CD:3143:40DE:A3B0 (talk) 13:06, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

When they become notable enough yes. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:54, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Called the 2022 Ukrainian Dombas counteroffensive. Mawer10 (talk) 14:16, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

"Fredericus 2.0" name

Only one source has used this unofficial naming "Fredericus 2.0", yet it somehow found its way on the article. Also, "Operation Fredericus" is a name Nazis Germany gave to its operation in WWII. Given the propaganda context by Russia on calling Ukraine a Nazi state, I wouldn't put "Fredericus 2.0" in the article until it's visible that this name is used by multiple reliable sources (official Ukrainian state and military sources, since they are the ones conducting the counteroffensive) that have decided to call it that. Идеологист (talk) 20:17, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah it kinda pushes towards the POV of "Ukraine is Nazis" etc Dawsongfg (talk) 00:58, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Removed. Jr8825 • Talk 01:07, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

"counter offensive"

I'm just thinking does this really count as a count as a counter offensive? a counter offensive is generally an offensive that occurs soon after an enemy offensive to retake lost territory or a defensive position an example is the latter half of the Battle of Cambrai (1917), where the germans went of the offensive and recaptured the territory that the British had taken. But this offensive wasn't really in response to anything, the Russians took this land months ago, calling this a counter offensive seems like calling the Nivelle offensive a french counter offensive (at least to me). surely this operation which has clearly been planned for months and does not have any relation to Russian actions recently in the region, shouldn't it just be an offensive? AnAustralianHistoryBuff (talk) 01:47, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Agree should just be "offensive". Volunteer Marek 02:04, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes it's a counteroffensive. Sure it's not necessarily defensive etc but more reliable sources appear to call it one. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:26, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Maybe it’s technically not a counteroffensive in military terms, meaning a response to an offensive that takes advantage of tempo (it does seem to be an operation by multiple units, as opposed to a counterattack). But many sources appear to be calling this a counteroffensive, in more informal terms. I think use of the term still fulfils the layperson’s dictionary definition, as an offensive in response to a previous offensive.

A survey of media references to this operation might be helpful. —Michael Z. 14:15, 14 September 2022 (UTC)