Talk:2007 Greek forest fires

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2007 Greek forest fires received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

removal of 'global warming' reference, identified as original research

Teo64x (I should note that the reference was not mine) although global warming surely didn't cause the fires (we modern greeks are mostly responsible for the chaos). I wouldn't say that the weather,the enviromental conditions aren't a factor,at least concerning the scale of the events. IMO it's surely a Paragon, it's ηλιου φαεινοτερον, that it is a preview of things to come. ερημοποιηση της λεκανης της μεσογειου,you know? Thanatos|talk 17:33, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But to some extent the weather does play a factor. Look at how hot it has been during the summer in Greece. It was hot (40 Celcius and above) and dry (no rain during June, July, and August) the entire summer. Some mention of the hotness and dryness should be mentioned in the article. ^{El Greco (talk · contribs)} 18:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The fires themselves were the result of arson, while the fact that they spread so quickly was because of strong winds, lack of good communication between fire-fighting forces and the fact that forests were not properly separated, so that fire wouldn't spread. I'm not denying the climate changes, but none of the above reasons is linked to the global warming. For this reason, adding any information other than what was said in the media should be considered original research. That, unless there are sources that clearly link global warming and the spreading of these fires. This is all I have to say on this matter. I'm not going to be involved in an edit war... If you want to mention global warming, go on, I just pointed out why I think we shouldn't. Teo64x 18:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

dear Teo64x

could you please explain to me how can we strictly mathematically correlate with absolute certainty, global warming to the raging fires? or drinking too much beer to frequent visits to the bathroom? :-) Yes an absolute a strict causal link,a 1-1 or not mapping of the former to the latter is somewhat impossible , at the present a bit irrelevant,perhaps misleading or wrong. And anyway correlation is not causation. After all most of the fires were caused by arsoning ,negligence or stupidity. After all we the modern Greeks,we the neohellenes, are famous for our organisational skills. :-) After all ... So what?

Mathematical austerity ,a strict and precise proof isn't the point here. Common sense is. I'm not saying that science is wrong or inadequate but that the system is too complex if you get what I mean. Strictly sticking to wiki rules about original research is a little bit too much here.

If you disapprove mentioning of global warming and weather conditions reflecting on the use of the latter by the goverment and the politicians in general as an excuse then I must note that it surely isn't one. To hell with them,they're useless,totally incompetent. (To hell with us also since WE elect them and since WE built houses on scorched earth etc...)

But IMO not mentioning climate change for these reasons equals to supporting stupid politicians and pseudo-financial interests. Recall that scientists had warned the public long before the summer that due to climate change any fire (whatever would it be it's cause,man or nature) would be a grave danger due to the predicted extreme weather conditions. And that they were totally ignored,the men in charge assuring us that Alles war in Ordnung, and we the demos resting assure drinking frappe by the beach.

Remember that most of the Balkans,Italy,etc have been ravaged by fire this summer. Were all those fires caused by arsoning? And what were the effects,the scale of the arson-caused fires of the past? Recall also that many of the fires,not to mention of the major ones, were caused by negligence and not by arsoning, and that they spreaded and expanded over huge areas due to the weather etc.

Try to think of the fires in Greece abstractly ,both as one of the causes and of the effects of the anthropogenic shift of the subtropical zone towards the north. Think of what would happen if it had rained normally during the past year. If the three heat waves hadn't passed through Greece. Think of what will happen at automn,at winter after the rains. Or next year when we'll probably run out of water etc etc...

Try not to see the tree and miss the forest.

Anyway I wrote the above as fuel, as food for thought of things to come. I think we have a disagreement on semantics, I believe that in essence we all agree.

P.S.I'm not going to reinsert the global warming reference,let the consensus decide.

Thanatos|talk 20:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I'm pretty much convinced,too, that Global Warming and the subsequent Climate Change has a lot to do with the fires (that our climate is shifting from a mediterannean one to something more desertish, hence the fires). But that's just my opinion, and Teo64x is correct in pointing out that if we include this now, it's Original Research. Don't rush, Wikipedia is not on fire. If the hypothesis you (the one with the creepy username) and I make holds any water, then it will eventually surface in the press and then we can include it. But let's not make a blog out of Wikipedia, eh? --Michalis Famelis (talk) 22:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I ,the one with the creepy username :-),am pretty tired to have any objections.ciao

Thanatos|talk 05:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How long as Greece been supressing naturally occuring forest fires in its history? We are having the same problem here in the Western states of the US where naturally occuring fires have been prevented for so long, that when the forest does burn, it burns hot enough to sterilize the ground. The result of preventing forest fires results is unnatural tree growth that obsorbs more water. In New Mexico alone we have 40 million acres of forest that did not exist a century ago, and which has diminished the Rio Grande substantially. This lack of water results in droughts, which naturally attempts to right the wrongs of human intervention by making fires inevitable. So before you start leaping to conclusions about global warming, find out what the history of fire supression is in Greece. Science does not have to complicated when you apply Greek logic. Jcchat66 15:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Greek logic,hilarious!!!!!!

(oh I forgot Aristotle was texan, and logike (logic) is new-mexican in etymology)
Dude you're great!

In New Mexico alone we have 40 million acres of forest that did not exist a century ago, and which has diminished the Rio Grande substantially. This lack of water results in droughts, which naturally attempts to right the wrongs of human intervention by making fires inevitable
So go ahead and burn them down!!!

How long as Greece been supressing naturally occuring forest fires in its history?
how much area of greece was covered in the past by forests and how much is it now?
please enlighten me you knowitall!
ie in the last 10-20 years of about every 10m2 of forest area burnt only 1m2 has been reforested.
And for some obscure reason water reserves haven't risen.
but I must err because you from the other side of the globe obviously know better.

furthermore please show me that the following are the same for both areas :
terrestrial morphology,local climate,local flora and fauna,climate model predictions,agriculture,population,population density,population distribution,reforestation (or deforestation) policies,urbanism,...,et cetera et cetera

And anyway you're forgetting that a century ago the anthropogenic impact on the enviroment hadn't yet set us on the threshold of enviromental disaster.

P.S.If I were in bona fide I would say that you're confusing the natural cycle in some forests' life which includes a burning phase with total enviromental destruction.
But I'm not and by the bolded phrase I'm guessing that you're a climate-change-global-warming denier.
Thanatos|talk 19:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanatos666, I merely asked questions. I did not imply that I knew the answer. I have never been the Greece and do not know its forest history. It may not be applicable to Greece at all, that should be obvious since any increase in water from lack of forests would go into the sea quickly, and not through one main river like New Mexico where it would be noticeable. That is why I am asking the question, not arrogantly assuming I have the answers.

Now as for your comments, you make no sense at all. You quoted: "oh I forgot Aristotle was texan, and logike (logic) is new-mexican in etymology)
Dude you're great!" What is all this about??? You sound bitter about something. Jcchat66 16:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Science does not have to complicated when you apply Greek logic.
what is all this about??? You sound bitter about something.
sarcastic not bitter
...which naturally attempts to right the wrongs of human intervention by making fires inevitable...
sounds pretty much like global warming denying to me.
and even if in new mexico forests there is a natural negative feedback tendency to return
to the equilibrium point,forests in general must be protected cause Earth
lies before a grave future.
That is why I am asking the question, not arrogantly assuming I have the answers.
We are having the same problem here in the Western states of the US where naturally
occuring fires have been prevented for so long,
for how long?is it a fact that it's an manmade prevention? sources please.
and if indeed it is,if you had studied any history you would know that since Greece has been
inhabited and therefore exploited by humans continuously for millenia and millenia,
forests (and ergo nature in general) have been retreating step by step for ages.
and please show me whence it follows that problems here and there are the same.
CU Thanatos|talk 20:49, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, there it is then, "global warming denial." No, I do not deny global warming, that is a far more complicated issue. This is possibly a simplier one. But since global warming has taken on a fanatically religious character (end of the world, everyone must repent, the proof is all around you, blah blah blah) those people that use such statements are usually too narrow-minded and puritan to look at any other possibility. I am quite sure the globe is getting warmer ... but that is not the reason for our forest fires in New Mexico. And perhaps not for Greece. But no wonder you sound so bitter, Thanatos666, an appropriate name for such darkness. Jcchat66 00:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

!yawn! ,ok ok ok whatever you say...Thanatos|talk 08:18, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Global warming indeed. Whoever made the money on this must be a poker player. It is immoral not to fool the wealth out of an idiot. Just let God....global warming that is, take the blame. --Stat-ist-ikk (talk) 10:18, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalisation

Why was this page moved from 2007 Greek forest fires to 2007 Greek Forest Fires? The fires are not a proper noun, so no capitalisation is required. Please compare with the titles used in Category:2007 natural disasters.--Damac 18:32, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

International assistance

I think adding a section on firefighting equipment and personnel from other countries sent to help would be a good idea. I don’t have much time right now, but if someone could, it would enhance the article. – Zntrip 05:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just moved the international help part into a separate section. I'd appreciate it if somebody could clean the list up. Teo64x 07:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

the section should be expanded to also show countries who have offered assistance, but is not yet in action. for instance canada has offered 5 water bombers. source: [1] ...Patrick (talk, cntrb.) 00:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't see the U.S. in the list. Does this mean the American government hasn't offered assistance? --Procrastinatrix 17:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The bit about Macedonia states that their offer was "ignored" -- a bit odd to me as it seems they need all the help they can get, especially from so close by. Anyone know of a source on this? --Johnnydc 04:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here are the sources, but the paragraph keeps getting removed by the crybaby Gayreeks. They must be ashamed of their behavior. On August 29, 2007 the FOCUS News Agency reported that the Republic of Macedonia has responded to Greece’s appeal for help in coping with the fires in the country, but Athens ignored Macedonia’s offer. Greece has answered with silence to the helping hand lent by Macedonia, Utrinski Vesnik reported. The head of the Crisis Management Center Pande Lazarevski contacted Greek services after their request for sending firefighters, offering 26 firefighters and 3 vehicles. The Macedonian Protection and Rescue Directorate has in its turn offered a 60-membered team. The crews were placed at some stations near the border with Greece and were ready to enter the country and act immediately after receiving a call from Greece. However, such request was not received by August 28, 2007 when the crews were told to return home^[1]^[2]^[3]

If you want to add this information to the article, please do so objectively and concisely. – Zntrip 17:01, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

'crybaby Gayreeks' ,how polite,how smart! esti men oyn Hellas kai he Makedonia. Thanatos|talk 21:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

greece denied fyrom and "help" due to it beeing rediculous(like giving a gum to a starving "macedonian").(i can insult you too u know) Anyway greece didnt only deny help from fyrom but other countries too due to the nature of help offered (50 firefighters with civilian vehicles trying to cross the border without request? get real), also fyrom wasnt really able to give any help they had their own problems to solve(with greek firefighters btw)

References

^ "Macedonia offers help to Greece in fighting raging fires". FOCUS News Agency Bulgaria. 2007-08-27. Retrieved 2007-08-27.
^ "Greece ignores the help offered by Macedonia in coping with fires damages". FOCUS News Agency Bulgaria. 2007-08-28. Retrieved 2007-08-28.
^ "Greece causes political fire with Macedonian firefighters". FOCUS News Agency Bulgaria. 2007-08-29. Retrieved 2007-08-29.

Fahrenheit in the lead

I am aware that the reference #2 states the heatwaves' temperature in Fahrenheit, but as this article deals with a European event, maybe it would be logical to state the temperature in Celcius, and either a) quote another source, or b) leave the Fahrenheit figure as supplemental? What do others think? --Gimlei ^{(talk to me)} 10:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your suggestion. Teo64x 10:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You can go ahead and add the celcius equilvilant to it. The source gave it as fahrenheit. ^{El Greco (talk · contribs)} 12:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, that was probably the best idea. Cheers for help! --Gimlei ^{(talk to me)} 12:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Olympia

Someone needs to go through and sort out the section about Olympia as it is a conflicted mash-up right now. Some new sources may be needed. Rmhermen 20:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed it somewhat now, but I'll be looking for more sources and information to add. I also made it its own section under August 2007. ^{El Greco (talk · contribs)} 20:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Area burnt

Someone should add the area burnt by the most recent fires (sq. km/hectares/acres, whatever). Rmhermen 20:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please use the units correctly.

1 stremma = 1,000 m²

1 acre = 4,047 m²

1 hectare = 10,000 m² (= 2.471 acres = 10 stremmata)

1 km² = 1,000,000 m² (= 100 hectares = 247.1 acres = 1000 stremmata)

Aftermath of Parnitha: 56,000 stremmata = 13,800 acres = 5,600 hectares = 56 km².

I have already updated the main article, fixing the misuse of area units, concerning the forest area destroyed in the June 2007 Parnitha wildfire.

August 22 image: convergence zone?

I have a certain amount of experience in analysing satellite imagery, both professionally in remote sensing & more recently as a glider pilot. The August 22 image looks to me like a classic convergence zone of cumulus clouds in the centre of the Peloponnese—not a series of forest fires forming a perfect north-south line! If the intention was simply to show the situation before the fires started, I think some readers may get the wrong impression: perhaps an explanatory caption should be added. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 17:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the clouds can be mistaken for forest fires, at least personally (and without your kind of experience) it never crossed my mind to interpret the clouds as fire smoke. Anyway, for the shake of clarity, I added a bit to the caption. By the way, it's nice to find out about different kinds of clouds! :-) --Michalis Famelis (talk) 21:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So the intention was to show a "before" picture of Greece without any fires, was it? Thanks for editing the caption; but it's still confusing, since it says NASA image of the fires, taken on 22 August, before the fires! The words of the fires need to be deleted to make sense.

And why not mention the (potentially confusing) clouds, while you're at it? After all, it would be perfectly possible to find a cloud-free image of the Peloponnese from some other date. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 22:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Polydoras

It surely can't be right to have the entire phrase Minister for Public Order, Vyron Polydoras twice in the Alleged arson section—unless you're assuming a very short attention span on the part of your readers. Of course, I'm sure he'll be flattered to see his title repeated in full. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 21:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's his title. Kostas Karamanlis has Prime Minister infront of his name all throughout the article. It's like if he was a Doctor. Would you not put doctor (Dr.) in front of his name? ^{El Greco (talk · contribs)} 21:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I would. But British usage is clearly different from Greek usage as regards repeating people's titles. Dr: yes; President: no; Lord: yes; Minister of Public Order: no; Prime Minister: no. A British article would say "Prime Minister Karamanlis" once, & thereafter simply call him "[Mr] Karamanlis". It's a cultural thing, I suppose. See, for example, this Guardian article.

American usage is probably closer to Greek usage. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 22:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but rereading this section of the article a week later my reaction is still the same. It sounds a bit like the speech of someone who's gone slightly senile: "The Minister for Public Order, Vyron Polydoras, stated ... A statement by Vyron Polydoras (by the way, did I mention that he's the Minister for Public Order?) read ...". Thank goodness there isn't a third mention of his name in this short section! --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 09:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

PS Please see WP:NAMES#Subsequent_uses_of_names, which suggests that the second mention should be simply Polydoras. Greek usage is irrelevant in the English Wikipedia. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is that better? ^{El Greco (talk · contribs)} 00:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it reads much better now! Thanks for your efforts. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 20:48, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cause of the fires..

It worries me that in our modern society which is so much more complex than never before some people outperfoming Sherlock Holmes have solved the murder from their keyboard, even without having a suspect!...

For those that don't know there is a serious political stake in the discussion of the cause since greece is in election period. Many greek politicians dont have the courage to even say something that implies accountability for their actions.And that could be for example that there is a possibility of a power-lines mulfunction due to overload of the system because of huge demand for power in a heat-wave period.Or that maybe the powerproducing plants near the center of two great fires may have a relation..Or that our model of economy is pollution-friendly and the intense heat waves is the nature's feedback.. Sure i dont exclude arson but let us be reason. Chomwitt 16:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Update?

Are the fires out now? No new information seems to have been added since August 27, and Aug 26 about the fires themselves. Iorek85 00:05, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're right but unfortunately as usually the media coverage has been substansially lessened and it's harder to report what's going on since we rely on the media. And some people have to work to make a living so they can't spend all day reporting on the web.:-) The death toll for the time being has also stopped so... With respect to the fires the focus is now on compensations and recovering although the annihilation isn't over. Elections and football gain media coverage day by day. Anyway I added a piece mentioning the continuing path of the fire in Arcadia. Thanatos|talk 09:21, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

September 1 Fire

I saw on the news about a fire that broke out near Mount Vermio due to a lightning, between Seli and 3-5 Pigadia. Anyone heard anything more about it? Plus the last 3 hours helicopters that throw water have been passing above my house.Sergiogr 13:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

about the beginning of the fires

I know that there are many different points of view concerning the causes that started the fires. One thing is certain though. The pattern of those fires has nothing in common with the pattern we were accustomed so far. We witnessed more than 150 fires in less than 3 days. This can t be a coincidence. Everything indicate man-made forest fires. As such there should no doubt, whatsoever, about the cause which apparently is a series of arsons. And there should also be no further doubt that the whole pattern indicates a highly trained team and a well organised operation Nonetheless who are the persons behind those attacks is the question still to be answered. Were those fires caused by some cruel business people to create new land for some form of property development? Were they caused by political extremists, as it was initially implied even by the international mass media, to manupilate the outcome of the forecoming national elections of Greece on the 16th of Sep 2007? Or simply Greece was just another victim of terrorism and particularly of a new form of eco - terrorism? And if so was it a Balkanian, Anatolian, or some other extremist group that caused the Greek Holocaust of the 21st century and sinked the whole Greek nation in mourning along with the rest of the civilised world ? Time only will tell as the investigations will hopefully start to produce some results.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Italiotis (talk • contribs) 23:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Date format

I think the date format used in the article should be the one used commonly in Greece, eg Day-Month, instead of Month-Day. While the software can change the display of dates on the fly (when they are linked), some users may wish to utilise the raw or wikitext version of the article. Furthermore, certain units such as C and F degrees should be linked I think. NerdyNSK 23:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You don't wikilink partial dates. ^{El Greco (talk · contribs)} 00:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know Wikipedia is also an almanac and that's why I wikilink all dates, to enable browsing the almanac part of Wikipedia. Are you aware of any policy or settled community-wide discussion that considers partial date wikilinks harmful? If so, could you please point this to me? NerdyNSK 00:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See here: WP:MOSNUM#Calendars & WP:MOS ^{El Greco (talk · contribs)} 01:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I transfer the discussion there then. NerdyNSK 03:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]