Talk:1119 papal election

Pontius preferred by Pope Gelasius?

The statement in the article concerning the Chronica of Gaufredus, Prior Vosiensis coenobii, reads as follows: "The account of Gaufrid, prior of Vigois, relates that Gelasius II had preferred Pontius and predicted his election; Pontius was a far more conciliatory candidate...." What Geoffroy du Breuil actually wrote was: "Contingit praeterea romanum Antistitem Cluniaco venire mori, ac sepeliri; qui ab abbate visitatus aciem oculorum prolixius in illum deflexit, vel defixit: dixitque et Abbas: 'Quid me aspicis?' Aeger respondit: 'Quia video in papatu moriturum. Et tunc animus Pontii gliscere coepit de Praesulatu sperans se papam futurum iri. Sed fefellit eum dubia spes. Verumtamen in papatu mortuus est, non ut Praesul romanus, imo captivus et peregrinus. Tumulato Pontifice Cluniaco, Archiepiscopum de Vienna qui erat frater Comitis illius eiusdem urbis, summum Pontificem statim Cardinales elegerunt. Poncius his contradicere voluit, sed non valuit. Reatum Praesul indulsit Abbati. Rogatus deinde urbem propriam redit."

('It happened besides that the bishop of Rome came to die and be buried at Cluny; visited by the abbot, he noticed that the pope's eyes were sharply fixed on him, and the abbot said: Wny are you looking at me? And the sick man replied, 'Because I see you will die in the papacy.' And then the spirit of Pontius began to glow over the papacy, expecting that he was going to be pope. But an unreliable fate deceived him. In truth, he died in the papal territory, not as pope, but in fact as a stranger and prisoner. Once the pope was buried t Cluny, the cardinals immediately elected as pope the archbishop of Vienne, who was the brother of the count of the same city. Pontius wanted to oppose him, but did not have the strength. The pope pardoned the abbot's crime. Having been asked, the pope returned to his own city (Vienne)."

Note, first of all, that nowhere does Pope Gelasius endorse Pontius for the papacy, or even prefer him. Note also that the suggestion is immediately dismissed by the author, Gaufredus.

Gaufredus (Geoffroy de Breuil) published his chronicle in 1181, sixty years after the events.

This belonged to a familiar quasi-historical meme: that of the ambitious person being given a prophecy, which he wrongly interprets in his own favor; e.g. Croesus and Apollo: "If you cross the Halys River, you will destroy a mighty empire [his own, not King Cyrus']. When Pyrrhus of Epirus received the prophecy, "aio te, Aeacida, Romanos vincere posse, he understands: “I believe that you, descendent of Aeacus, can defeat the Romans”; it turned out that the Romans defeated him.

Philippe Labbé (1657). Nova Bibliotheca manuscriptorum librorum (in Latin). Vol. Tomus secundus. Paris: Sebastien Cramoisy. p. 301.

--Vicedomino (talk) 04:23, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Pontius disliked

At the Council of Reims in October 1119, less than 9 months after the election, held in the presence of Calixtus II and Louis VI of France, the archbishop of Lyon strongly criticized Pontius for his aggressive activities against neighboring prelates. The monastery of Cluny was defended by Cardinal Giovanni da Crema, which only raised a tumult from other bishops and participants. J.D. Mansi (ed.), Sacrorum Conciliorum nova et amplissima collectio, editio novissima, Tomus XXI (in Latin) (Venice: A. Zatta 1776), pp. 242-244.

--Vicedomino (talk) 20:03, 29 August 2021 (UTC)