Talk:Święciany massacre

Categories removal

@Cukrakalnis what's the reasoning behind removal of categories Category:Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany and Category:World War II crimes in Poland? The massacre was pepetrated by Lithuanian collaborationist units on a territory of Polish state. Marcelus (talk) 15:54, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Like I said in the edit ([1]): WP:CATSPECIFIC. Specifically, articles should rarely be placed in both a given category and any of its sub- or parent (super-) categories..

I removed the Category:Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany from this article, because it is a parent category of Category:Generalbezirk Litauen.

I removed the Category:World War II crimes in Poland because Švenčionys is now Lithuania and there was no Polish state there after 18 September 1939. Cukrakalnis (talk) 15:59, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

1. But why Generalbezirk Litauen is parent to Category:Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany? Generalbezirk wasn't Lithuanian collaborationist entity, but part of civilian occupation regime of Nazi Germany in the east. It doesn't make sense.

2. This is a fringe theory, according to the legitimate Polish government and the Western Allies it was part of the occupied Polish state. The claim that "there was no Polish state there since September 18, 1939" is a repeat of the Soviet interpretation. An absolutely scandalous statement.

Category:World War II crimes in Poland contains crimes comitted on territory of Poland in 1939 borders; Please restore this parent category immediately, on this and related pages Marcelus (talk) 16:13, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

1. Because the Lithuanian collaboration that did happen, happened within the context of Generalbezirk Litauen

2. What? The Polish state objectively collapsed during the Invasion of Poland. Few if any of the things that characterize a state could be attributed to Poland from mid-September 1939 to basically the end of World War II. No more control over borders, no monopoly of violence by the Polish state, etc. That's a fact, not a fringe theory or Soviet propaganda. AFAIK the Western Allies never said that it was part of the occupied Polish state, otherwise the Tehran Conference would not have decided what it did, where the Western Allies obviously had a 'flexible' view towards Poland.

Category:World War II crimes in Poland is about Poland within modern borders, because in other categories the countries are within their modern borders - e.g. Greece, Romania or Belarus - and not Soviet Union, Kingdom of Hungary, etc. Plus, Category:World War II crimes in Belarus exists and covers the territory that was briefly Polish during the interwar (e.g. Naliboki massacre). It would be problematic to have a duplication of categories regarding what country the event happened in. Cukrakalnis (talk) 17:06, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

1. Absolutely not true, Lithuanian collaborationist units were active in Belarus, Latvia, Ukraine and Poland.

2. There is nothing wrong in including one event into two such categories; for example this one can be include in both Category:World War II crimes in Poland and Category:World War II crimes in Lithuania or similar. Let me repeat again: Category:World War II crimes in Poland contains all crimes comitted on a territory of Poland within 1939 border.

If you insist on removing this category from this and similar articles, I will have to report it to WP:FTN. Marcelus (talk) 17:27, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

1. You didn't understand what I mean. The Lithuanian collaborators were organized within and by the Generalbezirk Litauen, which is why I said that it was "within the context of".

2. Either a crime is committed in one country or another. Two countries do not exist simultaneously on the same territory, because that's contradictory to the current definitions of what a state is. Let me repeat again: Category:World War II crimes in Poland contains all crimes comitted on a territory of Poland within 1939 border. Where is that written? From what I gather, such categories about locations are about countries in the modern sense, unless it is in the category's name, like Independent State of Croatia, etc.

Fringe theory of what? You're the one arguing for adding a category clearly concerning things about things "in Poland" to an article about a location in Lithuania. You should also be aware that WP:THREATENing is not conducive to cooperation and frequently yields the opposite. Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:16, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

1. Generalbezirk Litauen isn't part of Lithuanian collaboration, it's a German entity, that has nothing to do with Lithuanian collaboration, it wasn't Lithuanian Vichy

2. It's not WP:THREATEN; I'm just informing you what actions will I take in case you won't stop pushing fringe theory that Poland stopped existing on 18 September and that all events that happened on its territory weren't happening in Poland. That's a step I'm going to make soon. Marcelus (talk) 18:26, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

1. The Lithuanian Auxiliary Police, Lithuanian Security Police, etc., were subordinated to Generalbezirk Litauen. The Generalbezirk itself is clearly part of Lithuanian collaboration. Saying otherwise is nonsensical.

2. I never said that Poland (as a nation, culture, etc.) stopped existing on September 18. I only said that:

• Švenčionys was no longer part of the Polish state after the first Soviet occupation of that town on 18 September 1939. Unless you can somehow prove that the Polish government still was the controller of that territory after Soviet troops had occupied those territories.
• The Polish state collapsed following the invasion of Poland.
• Poland, in the sense of a Polish state (the context of the sentence obviously indicates that this is what I meant), did not exist until basically the end of WWII after the collapse of 1939.

None of the statements I said are fringe. Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:57, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

1. Putting aside everything else, Generalbezirk Litauen was created only on 25 July, 1941, and the collaboration started earlier.

2. You said: The Polish state objectively collapsed during the Invasion of Poland. Few if any of the things that characterize a state could be attributed to Poland from mid-September 1939 to basically the end of World War II; just because country doesn't have a temporary control of its territory it doesn't mean it collapsed. Poland was occupied by foreign powers. You are pushing your own POV. Marcelus (talk) 19:20, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

The Polish state was obviously destroyed during the invasion of Poland by outside forces (Germany and USSR) and thus collapsed in September 1939. Multiple WP:RS say that. Your WP:POV-PUSH to rewrite history to say that the Polish state was not destroyed is ludicrous. Occupation is the way that the Polish state was destroyed. Controlling territory and being the sole to exercise power/violence over it is precisely one of the key attributes of a state. Cukrakalnis (talk) 20:50, 21 March 2023 (UTC)