Talk:Établissement public à caractère scientifique, culturel et professionnel

Education Low‑importance

	Education portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Education, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of education and education-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EducationWikipedia:WikiProject EducationTemplate:WikiProject Educationeducation articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

France Low‑importance

	France portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject France, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of France on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FranceWikipedia:WikiProject FranceTemplate:WikiProject FranceFrance articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Higher education

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Higher education, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of higher education, universities, and colleges on Wikipedia. Please visit the project page to join the discussion, and see the project's article guideline for useful advice.Higher educationWikipedia:WikiProject Higher educationTemplate:WikiProject Higher educationHigher education articles

Culture

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Culture, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of culture on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CultureWikipedia:WikiProject CultureTemplate:WikiProject Cultureculture articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Science Low‑importance

	Science portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Science, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Science on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ScienceWikipedia:WikiProject ScienceTemplate:WikiProject Sciencescience articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Basic questions

Some questions:

Why is "Public universities and higher education institutes" presented as the proper translation of "Établissement public à caractère scientifique, culturel et professionnel"?
Why the box to the right entitled "French Science"? Where do EPCSPs fit in this box?
Under the heading "Different types of EPCSP" there are two subheadings: "Universities" and "Autonoumous higher education institutes". So what is the status of the other headings: "Écoles Normales Supérieures", "French institutes abroad", and "Grands établissements"? Are these EPCSPs as well?
Why "The 80 universities and institutes of technology"? There are 81 public universities and three institutes of technology.
How do we justify the statement "EPCSP have full scientific autonomy to organise their research area, their curricula and degrees, up to and including doctoral degrees."? Universities typcially are severely handicapped in their ability to organize their scientific research, and depend upon outside institutions such as the CNRS. Universities also often do not have their own doctoral schools, but participate in doctoral schools that are run jointly with other institutions such as grandes écoles. This does not qualify as autonomy.
How can we justify saying that these institutions all "have the broadest legal, administrative and financial autonomy in the French education system"? Many universities don't even own their own buildings! There are many institutions of higher education and research in France that have much greater autonomy than the public universities.

-- MyPOV (talk) 04:24, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I also support the questions from User:MyPOV. I support the view that the definition and stated properties of an EPCSP are dubious and need amendments in the text. Note that I have corrected immediately the 80 into 81 and have added EPCSP in the box "French Science".

Cabotin (talk) 11:31, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This reorganization by Cabotin already makes things much clearer. A number of the questions I raised above persist, and perhaps someone can address them. I would add the following:

Do we have references to support the full list of Grands établissements? The full question is in the talk section of that article.
Isn't the notion of EPSCP broader than just scientific or educational? That is, scientifique is just one of the three categories in the title. So how are we justified in saying that all of these institutions as somehow related to "French Science" (as indicated by the box on the right)? According to the Grands établissements article, for instance, the Comédie-Française is a grand établissement. We would be equally justified in placing a "French Arts" box on this page.
How can we justify a box at the bottom of the page entitled "Public universities and higher education institutes in France" that includes institutions such as the Muséum national d'histoire naturelle and the Palais de la Découverte, but not the Ecole polytechnique or any number of other grandes écoles?

-- MyPOV (talk) 17:23, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bottom box

I would suggest 2 things:

Rename the box into "Établissement public à caractère scientifique, culturel et professionnel" - since it seems to be the analogue of the fr:Modèle:Palette Établissements publics à caractère scientifique, culturel et professionnel.
Create an own page for the box - to enable interwiki to the French and Russian (ru:Шаблон:EPSCP (Франция)) versions. --Max Shakhray (talk) 01:16, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]