Talk:Écoles gratuites de dessin

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This article was nominated for merging with École nationale supérieure des arts décoratifs on October 2016. The result of the discussion was no consensus to merge.

What should be here?

I originally set this up as a redirect to the École nationale supérieure des arts décoratifs. Then I realised that I was out of my depth, so I have removed the redirect.

It seems that there are or were several Écoles Gratuite de Dessin, and only one of them, the École royale gratuite de dessin founded in 1766 by Jean-Jacques Bachelier was the originator of the École nationale supérieure des arts décoratifs.

Can someone please help out and write an appropriate stub or a redirect here?

Perhaps there should be a redirect from École royale gratuite de dessin to École nationale supérieure des arts décoratifs. Verbcatcher (talk) 14:24, 22 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Contested deletion

This article should not be speedy deleted as having no substantive content, because... I have added a small stub to the article, and it is a potentially useful article or redirect. -- Verbcatcher (talk) 17:36, 22 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Merge

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

No consensus to merge. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 08:49, 21 May 2018 (UTC) (non-admin closure)[reply]

This article was initially created as a redirect to École nationale supérieure des arts décoratifs (ENSAD). As I explained above, there were several Écoles Gratuite de Dessin (free drawing schools), only one of which became ENSAD. The articles on Jean Bonvoisin, Jean-Jacques de Boissieu and Jean-Baptiste Descamps say that they studied or taught in an École Gratuite de Dessin which was not the École Royale Gratuite de Dessin in Paris. Readers (particularly non-French speakers) could take École Gratuite de Dessin to indicate a specific art school, and come to Wikipedia for information. It would be misleading to redirect them to a specific art school.

It would be good to expand this article with a list of Écoles Gratuite de Dessin. If these schools formed to a movement then we should discuss this. I would like to cite sources, but we can't cite other Wikipedia articles and references in encyclopedias to École Gratuite de Dessin usually only say that an artist studied in one, and give no further details of the school.

Do not merge. Verbcatcher (talk) 16:57, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Where are the sources?--DDupard (talk) 17:01, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As I suspected, there was some form of "movement" concerning Écoles Gratuite de Dessin. In Agnès Lahalle's book: "En France, la création en nombre important – une soixantaine – d’écoles de dessin au siècle des Lumières constitue un phénomène majeur en termes d’innovation éducative."^[1] (In France, the creation in large numbers - sixty - drawing schools in the Enlightenment is a major phenomenon in terms of educational innovation.) This justifies a separate article, and confirms the existence of schools other than that which developed into ENSAD. This is a promising source of material for the article, but it would be simpler for an editor whose French is better than mine to work on it. Verbcatcher (talk) 19:01, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

( For the record: sources provided by DDupard) [1] --DDupard (talk) 19:16, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reminder: WIKI = What I Know Is....--DDupard (talk) 19:27, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:DDupard, I think I have established a good case for the article to remain, and you have raised no significant objections beyond your initial suggestion. In am unsure of the rules here, but as the proposer I assume that you can withdraw the proposal and remove the tags. Or do you want the proposal to stand and be resolved by another editor in the normal way? Verbcatcher (talk) 15:22, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Verbcatcher, the article has taken a bit of substance, I agree, however, it seems to me that it could be integrated as a paragraph in the History section of École nationale supérieure des arts décoratifs. Please do ask for a second or rather third opinion--DDupard (talk) 15:35, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note for reviewing editors: please review this proposal in the light of the proposer's actions on the same day on other articles with which I have been involved, see Talk:Howardian High School#William Grant Murray and Howardian High School. Verbcatcher (talk) 16:05, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Lahalle, Agnès (2006). Les écoles de dessin au XVIIIe siècle : entre arts libéraux et arts mécaniques [The drawing schools in the eighteenth century : between fine art and crafts] (in French). Presses universitaires de Rennes. ISBN 9782753503168.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lists and orphan articles

When this article will be "de-orphaned", (i.e. linked to 3 pages), may be there will be some appreciation for the existence of lists--DDupard (talk) 22:28, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In reality, it is only linked to from John-Étienne Chaponnière. Redirect pages shouldn't be counted, and the link from École nationale supérieure des arts décoratifs is only from the merge proposal hatnote. Please add some more. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:37, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a redirect at École Royale Gratuite de Dessin and links from several articles. We now have eight incoming links. I will remove the Orphan tag. Verbcatcher (talk) 23:19, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

New source

Ballon, Frédéric; Wittman, Richard (Spring–Summer 1996). "Teaching the Decorative Arts in the Nineteenth Century: The École Gratuite de Dessin, Paris". Studies in the Decorative Arts. 3 (2). University of Chicago Press on behalf of the Bard Graduate Center. {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

Unfortunately, I don't have access to Jstor. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:59, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For info: waitlist to register for free access to JSTOR's online resources through the Wikipedia library [2].--DDupard (talk) 12:38, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Lahalle, Agnès (2006). Les écoles de dessin au XVIIIe siècle : entre arts libéraux et arts mécaniques [The drawing schools in the eighteenth century : between fine art and crafts] (in French). Presses universitaires de Rennes. ISBN 9782753503168.

[1]