Talk:Æthelred the Unready/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Cleanup tag

Adraeus, what is it about the article that needs to be cleaned up? Adam Bishop 8 July 2005 15:13 (UTC)

Minor issues: organize the article into sections, convert non-English letterforms into HTML entities. For exampel, Æ. See also: Manual of Style for Biographies. Adraeus July 8, 2005 20:48 (UTC)

Well it's not really long enough to have sections yet. And if you know how to convert those letters into HTML entities, please do - surely that would have been easier than slapping a cleanup tag on it and discussing it here :) Adam Bishop 8 July 2005 21:27 (UTC)

Well it's cleaned up now, I hope. Adam Bishop 20:21, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Character

What is omitted in this article is an examination of the serious character flaws that caused his reign to be one of the most disastrous in English history. He seemed unable to retain the loyalty of almost any of his subjects and was continually betrayed by various of his commanders. He was inconsistent and forgave those who betrayed him only to have them betray him again. He often rewarded his enemies and punished his followers. Instead of having his rivals executed by royal decree he had them assassinated in underhand ways so they never knew where they stood. He made war on civilians and ran away from battle with proper armies.

Much of this can be understood- though not forgiven- by reference to his childhood. He appears to have witnessed the brutal assassination of his half-brother King Edward the Martyr by his own mother when aged 10. He is reported to have cried inconsolably so his mother beat him with candles. This gave him a lifelong aversion to candles and might be expected to lead to a borderline personality disorder, which is borne out by his later behaviour. It also meant that he could not stand candles in his presence- so what did he do when it got dark? He is said to have been very lazy and slept a lot, but he also had a vast number of children. —Streona 21:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

The hyperlink for first wife is incorrect; currently points to wife of Canute

Marriages

As pointed out above, there is some confusion about Ethelred's wives. The text gives three, Elflaed with a broken link, Elgifu with a link to a woman born born in 997 and had two children, and yet by 1002 he is married to Emma of Normandy. The summary box lists only the last two wives with the same wrong link for Elgifu. Dudleymiles 17:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

• This link should clear up the confusion of which children were born from Aelflaed and Emma of Normandy under marriage with Ethelred the Unready. Sundehul 1 Dec 2007

Please correct the name of Aelgifu to Aelflaed, per this link showing her marriage to Ethelred the Unready. On the other hand, Emma of Normandy adopted the name of Aelgifu when she married Ethelred. On the sidebar of Ethelred's article, please separate the children - firstly to Aelflaed, then secondly to Emma (she had Alfred, Edward and Goda), all other children from Aelflaed under Ethelred. Sundehul 1 Dec 2007.

Barlow's Edward the Confessor says Æthelred's first wife was Ælfgifu. Higham's Death of Anglo-Saxon England says Ælfgifu. Pauline Stafford's Unification and Conquest says Ælfgifu. Sean Miller's "Æthelred the Unready" in the Blackwell Encyclopedia of Anglo-Saxon England says Ælfgifu. I think we should stick with Ælfgifu. Angus McLellan (Talk) 17:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Start Class

Good work on a basic outline of his life, but the article is mostly unsourced and could certainly contain more details in most facets of his life. Perhaps most lacking is any discussion of where "Unready" came from. Even though the translation of "Unraede" is in question, there should still be some description of the term and why he was not, in fact, Unready. —Cuiviénen 15:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I think this page is pretty good. In modern Dutch, a sister language of Old English, the naming pun still works: Edelraad Onraad. And so in German: Adelrat Unrat. I guess you have to viscerally "get" the joke to appreciate that the explanations offered by page writer and above posters are correct.

I have to agree with Cuiviénen, it's a good start but it needs a lot of work. Æthelred deserves much better than this, as it stands: for example, so that his government can no longer be described as a 'total failure... in the face of the Danish threat' (he continued to rule for over 30 years after the new Danish attacks started!), and so that it is adequately provided with decent citations (I'm sorry, but as if citing a Florida Supreme Court handout as a reference for Æthelred's legal reforms weren't already a bad idea, the fact that it describes Æthelred as a 'Danish' king makes it laughable!). It might take a while, but I'll try to make up for these rather negative comments by making some contributions of my own. Nortonius (talk) 19:09, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Ethelred II vs. Ethelred

In the last few hours, the 'II' in Ethelred II has been removed, with some insistence. The editor in question argues that this enumeration is spurious and incorrect, and adduces the examples of the three pre-Conquest kings of England called 'Edward'. I have countered that this enumeration is in fact found in fundamental historiography outside the confines of Wikipedia, e.g. in Stafford, P., Unification and Conquest, Edward Arnold, 1989, index, and so is not spurious; and would argue that, within the context of Anglo-Saxon kingship, it is both correct and useful. Also, I would say that the argument regarding kings called 'Edward' does not apply, since there are no post-Conquest kings called 'Æthelred' (or however you want to spell it). I have also indicated that, as this enumeration has been present on Ethelred's page since 2001, through a large number of edits, the consensus appears already to be in favour of its inclusion. At the moment, I don't want to pursue this any further with the editor in question, but I invite interested comments here. Nortonius (talk) 11:02, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Surely this is a nobrainer? How many scholarly articles do we need to show that it is common to use the 'II'? eg Archbishop Wulfstan and the Homiletic Element in the Laws of Æthelred II and Cnut M. K. LawsonT he English Historical Review, Vol. 107, No. 424 (Jul., 1992), pp. 565-586, a review by Barbara Yorke of King Alfred's College Winchester where she writes "where the case is made for Alfred anticipating his descendant /Ethelred II in having to buy off his enemies through the payment of tribute." Doug Weller (talk) 11:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the comment, for restoring the 'II', and for being observant enough to also restore 'Ethelred the Unready' - I had noticed its incidental deletion, but didn't have the stomach for yet another discussion! Great. Nortonius (talk) 12:02, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Citation problems

Given the wealth of works published in the last 30 years which treat of Ethelred and his reign, it is rather embarassing that the reference list for this article is so sparse. Many of the articles from the Millenary Conference book altered the way historians perceive his reign; most of these articles should show up in the Wiki entry. Above all, the following work could not be referenced enough, I think: Simon Keynes, The Diplomas of King Æthelred ‘The Unready’, 978-1016: A Study in their Use as Historical Evidence, Cambridge Studies in Medieval Life and Thought 3, vol. 13 (Cambridge, 1980). Also, the method of reference is uneven and unstandardized. I intend to contribute what I can to the bibliography, though help would be appreciated.

Last, has anyone checked the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (under “Æthelred II [Ethelred; known as Ethelred the Unready] (c.966x8–1016)”)? Eltheodigraeardgesece (talk) 14:39, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Laws

I am fascinated by the legislative achievements during Ethelred's reign, particularly in how the king collaborated with Wulfstan II, Archbishop of York, in the promotion of secular and ecclesiastical law. We remember that Wulfstan is famed for composing one of the most interesting 'documents' from this period, the Sermo Lupi ad Anglos, which (in one of the versions) alludes to and strongly condemns Ethelred's brief expulsion from the kingdom. The fact that Wulfstan, who seems to have had ambiguous feelings about Ethelred as king, nevertheless upheld his right to rule, and supposedly helped arrange to have him re-instated after his brief exile, suggests that not everyone was quick to condemn the King as an utterly deperate case.

The laws that Wulfstan drew up for Ethelred are like few other Anglo-Saxon legal codes. They are highly rhetorical and call for a sort of pan-English devotion to correct practice of the Christian faith as a method of opposing the Danish 'scourge' (sent, Wulfstan says, as retribution from God for the wicked contemporary customs of the English). Yet they are also innovative in terms of their more standard legal pronouncements, like coinage, defence, etc. (these I think are already mentioned briefly in the Wiki entry - they could be expanded upon). That a reign supposedly filled with governmental incompetance was able to see through such legislatiove reforms (albeit only with aid of a remarkable Archbishop's) speaks to our overly-simplified view of the situation.

Further, how does St. Brice's day get only cursory mention in this article? Whatever our feelings about it, it was a major event in the reign of Ethelred. That something this drastic, momentous, and (presumably) far-reaching could be pulled off surreptitiously by the King and his witan again suggests a different picture of Ethelred than as a king who held the reins of government by a thread. and, agains, it seems relevant that Wulfstan was promoted to the archbishopric of YORK in this year (Jon Wilcox has an article exploring this connection). Last, with Wulfstan as (probably) the most important political figure in the north of England 1002-16, a region which was thoroughly populated with Danes and Norwegians, surely more can be said of his role in Ethelred's conflict with the Danish invasions.Eltheodigraeardgesece (talk) 15:03, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

New Section?

I propose making a new section for discussion of legal matters pertaining to Ethelred's reign. It's beginning to look like much of the matter in the "Lagacy" section is legal-ish. To clean things up a bit, I think we should separate all the discussion of legal matters (except perhaps the jury section) to its own section.Eltheodigraeardgesece (talk) 23:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I've mentioned something about this is my comment for The Jury section above... Nortonius (talk) 23:51, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

That seems good, especially if you can have access to Wormald's magnum opus [which is, as I understand things, the last word on the matter]. Something on the mini-renaissance of the age - not just Wulfstan but also Byrhtferth and Ælfric the Homilist - would be good. I did do some doodling on the structure of the article at User:Angusmclellan/Ethelred. If there's anything useful there, help yourself, if not, ignore it. The article is looking much better! Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:08, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

That's great. Those refs will come in handy.Eltheodigraeardgesece (talk) 00:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Copy Editing

What needs to be done to satisfy the copy-editing alert?Eltheodigraeardgesece (talk) 20:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

To Be Done:

• The introduction may need an overhaul.
• 'Marriage and Reissue' needs the support of references.
• 'Legislation' is still basically a stub
• 'Conflict with the Danes' needs to cover the final years of his reign more fully.Eltheodigraeardgesece (talk) 12:57, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Aethelreda, daughter of Ethelred?

The previous version of this article lists an additional possible daughter, Aethelreda, married to Gospatric, Earl of Northumbria, and the article on Gospatrick states this as definite. However, she is not shown in Barlow's family tree, and the DNB article on Gospatrick at http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/11110/?back=,50322 says that the name of his wife is unknown. I have therefore deleted her from both articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dudley Miles (talk • contribs) 23:49, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

List of English monarchs

Ælfweard is listed as an undoubted monarch and Harold Godwinson as a disputed one. This is surely the wrong way round, as the Wikipedia entries for both make clear. Dudley Miles (talk) 23:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

New file File:Ethelred the Unready.jpg

Recently the file File:Ethelred the Unready.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. This is the full image that the current lead image is a detail of. Dcoetzee 18:49, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Aethelred vs. Ethelred

Shouldn't this article be called Aethelred the Unready? As it is an article primarily concerning England, surely British English should be used, which leaves in ligatures (eg. Archaeology vs. Archeology, Manoeuver vs. Maneuver) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.67.44 (talk) 19:17, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I've never seen the spelling 'Aethelred' that I can remember. It's always either 'Æthelred' or 'Ethelred'. Eltheodigraeardgesece (talk) 22:06, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

If his Old English name was Æþelræd why are we calling him Æthelred? Surely consistency demands either Æthelræd or Ethelred, preserving either both instances of æ or neither? -- Picapica (talk) 22:13, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Untitled

According to Eilert Ekwall, Ethel means 'protection' rather than the broader 'noble'. So keep the semiotic ring-a-ding-ding-ding, but the name means 'protection advice uncounselled,' apt for his era. 64.65.73.178 (talk) 21:22, 13 June 2010 (UTC) ==Untitled== OK, so why was he called "The Uncounselled", then? Bad habit of holding his hands over his ears and singing "My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean" when his advisors spoke? -- Paul Drye

Not a million miles away from what happened, as it transpires... Except his advisors were as twisty as a New Labour focus group.... sjc

Read The Long Ships by Bengtson. Not only will that answer your qustion, it will also entertain you. (And while we're at it, shouldn't that novel be mentioned under "popular culture?)--Peter Knutsen 02:13, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

According to [1], it means "unwise". -- DrBob

- and if you believe much of that particular take on history, you'll also believe that England is a South Sea island paradise where the trains run on time and the streets are paved with gold. sjc

There are potentially n different translations out there, and n-1 of them are historically inaccurate if not actually wrong from a linguistic point of view. However, and I was hoping not to have to go into this, it's actually a longer article than most in the Wikipedia in itself, the word in AS is unraede, "without counsel" meaning that (to paraphrase Monty Python) in the ultimate balance, when all was said and done, at the final whistle, at a time of major national crisis he had absolutely no answers whatsoever for the problems which confronted him, and, moreover, as those who gave hime the nickname would have been fully aware, nobody on which he could rely to turn to for those answers. It is an Anglo-Saxon form of joke, an ironic pun, and is a) exceptionally cruel and b) searingly accurate. It doesn't just mean he was unprepared, it means he didn't have a fecking clue.

In fact it is not an Anglo-Saxon joke - the epithet unraede is of uncertain provenance and first appears in the Middle English period. A pun certainly, but not one likely to have been coined by his contemporary.

PS: DrBob: you don't think that the chinless wonders might be being somewhat diplomatic about their forebears in their website do you, by any chance?sjc

mmmmm, royal nomenclature. My favorite English mistranslation is Philip the Fair of France. He's Philip-the-Goodlooking-who-EVERYONE-hated. Traditional nomenclature is a snare and a delusion, but how else are we going to keep Ethelred the U. separate from the other Ethelred(s)? --MichaelTinkler

My sentiments entirely. I was going to bang him in as Ethelred II but no-one would have the foggiest who Ethelred II was (I had to figure it myself). sjc

Go Cognomina! Unless anyone writes an article on "England's Rose," in which case I'll have to rethink! JHK

Best def I've seen is "poorly advised", tho I doubt "unready" will unstick... Trekphiler 11:04, 2 December 2005 (UTC)