Talk:'Ajam of Kuwait

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Regarding the undiscussed move

@Ohamas: When I told you not to move the page without discussing first unless it has an uncontroversial error, I wasn't giving you an option; this is a rule in Wikipedia that you have to follow. You went on and moved the page directly without discussing for a second time. The first time your move summary was: ""Ayam" means Ajam", and the second time it was: "There is no such thing as "Ayam". The correct term is "Ajam". Do you have a hard time understanding the Arabic language??????" Leaving aside the contradiction between your two summaries, and your strange claim that "Ayam" is an incorrect word despite the sources provided that use this word, can you tell me what gives the name "Ajam" more authority than "Ayam"? You just moved the page without even bothering with providing sources and references in the article. Please explain your move here. If you don't I'll move it back to the name it was created under (Ayam). Also, next time you move a page, make sure to change the links in the navboxes to match the new page name. --KoveytBud (talk) 15:38, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ajam means Ayam. Ayam means Ajam. In Kuwait "j" is "y". This doesn't change the fact it's the same word. "Ajam" is more famous and commonly used than "Ayam", especially in Western academia and scholarly research. Even in the Arab world! I don't like arguing. Ayam means Ajam. It's the same word!!!!!! The difference is, most Kuwaitis pronounce the "j" as "y". There is no need to argue about this. "Ajam of Kuwait" has more Google hit searches than "Ayam of Kuwait". In the Gulf, everyone says "Ajam" except for the Kuwaitis and Emiratis. "Ayam" doesn't even make sense to most Arabic speakers. They wouldn't even understand what it means. Even in Kuwait some bedu use "ajam" instead of "ayam". "Ajam" is the actual word that Arabs use. The correct word is "Ajam", but the issue is the Kuwaitis pronounce the "j" as "y". Chavs in the UK and rednecks in the US pronounce letters differently from the masses. It's normal. This doesn't change the spelling of the actual word. Also, in the UAE most Emiratis refer to "Ajam" as "Ayam". Kuwaiti Ajam are not the only "Ayam" in the GCC!!! So why rename the article? "Ajam of Kuwait" is a more accurate title because it is their actual name (in the Arab world and beyond). "Ayam" is just the way it's pronounced locally (in Kuwait and UAE only). Most (if not all) sources in Western academic and scholarly research refer to them as "Kuwaiti Ajam" (not "Ayam"). This is the English language version of Wikipedia. You don't have sufficient number of reliable sources to support your claim. "Ayam" is rarely used in Western sources.

@Ohamas: Thank you for replying. If the term "Ajam of Kuwait" is more common than "Ayam", then the move is OK. However, you have to provide sources in the introduction to prove that (and also do not remove the term Ayam from the introduction since it is also used. You can write something like "Ajam of Kuwait (sources), also known locally as Ayam (sources), are...etc). Please note that the term being a Standard Arabic or Kuwaiti Arabic or Egyptian Arabic or whatever variety of Arabic term has nothing to do with its validity, as all varieties of speech are equal and have equal value and validity and "Ayam" being a Kuwaiti Arabic term does not mean it is wrong or incorrect, the only reason your move is OK is because "Ajam of Kuwait" is more common and widely used than "Ayam". Belittling and dismissing peoples' tongues as wrong and invalid and calling their speech incorrect is a totally unacceptable practice and isn't a valid discussion point. Best --KoveytBud (talk) 13:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Status of families with an Arab nasab

Taking into account that the word "Ajami" is defined as "Non-Arab person", and also that an Arab is anyone with an Arab nasab (lineage), I propose removing the Marafie family from this page, because they bear Arab lineages, and the family does not claim to be Ajamis but rather Arabs.

See the website of the Marafie family, zero claims to the label of Ajami, but rather claims to Arab lineage: http://diwanmarafie.com/En/Marafie_history_2.htm

This proposal was made at the personal request of a member of the Marafie family who does not know how to use Wikipedia. Abdulhakim1917 (talk) 11:13, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In the Kuwaiti context, "Ajami" is defined as Kuwaiti citizens of Iranian national ancestry. The overwhelming majority of official academic, historical, and scholarly sources identify Kuwait's Marafie family as Ajam عيم. According to Wikipedia rules, we must follow the neutral view of the overwhelming majority of sources available (not the minority opinion).

The Diwan Marafie website is unreliable because it is not run by the Marafie family itself. My sister in law is from the Marafie family and so is my aunt's husband (grand children of Mohammed Rafie Marafie) and they both refuted the Qahtani tribal claims as lies. In addition, the Diwan Marafie website does not constitute a reliable source according to Wikipedia policies and guidelines.

These are the only official websites affiliated with the Marafie family:

https://marafiefoundation.org/about-us/

https://www.marafiegroup.com/about-us.php

These are the official Instagram accounts:

https://www.instagram.com/marafiegroup

https://www.instagram.com/marafiefoundation

The (unofficial) Diwan Marafie Instagram account only has 409 followers, which proves that it is not a valid nor official representation of the Marafie family (consisting of thousands of family members in Kuwait).

More importantly, even if we believe the claims of the (unofficial) Diwan Marafie website; it is clear that the website is claiming the Marafie family has ancient Madhhij tribal descent; which does not negate that the family are Ajam because the ancient Madhhij tribe immigrated to Iran before or during the Islamic conquest of Persia (more than 1,000 years ago). After one thousand years, surely they became Iranian nationals (Iranian nationality was first introduced in 1501 AD under the Safavid state whereas the Marafie family moved to Kuwait in 1708 AD). The website emphasises that the family settled in Iranian regions (especially Bandar Ma’shur) and even explicitly mentions that the Marafie family migrated from Bandar Ma’shur to Kuwait: https://www-diwanmarafie-com.translate.goog/Ar/Marafie_history_2.htm?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Furthermore, you had removed this sourced content from the article:

"Husseiniyat Marafi is among the oldest husseiniyas in Kuwait, as it was founded in 1905, and reading there was initially in the Persian language.

Source: http://h-marafi.org/port-2010/

If the Marafie family are not Ajam, why was their Husseiniya held in the Persian language? 200 years after the family had moved from Iran to Kuwait!

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:1851:1F:BC42:24DF:3639:F956:1969 (talk) 17:33, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In the Kuwaiti context, the word "Ajami" refers only to non-Arabs. Period. But insist on feeding people incorrect information if you want, I'm done with this. But you have to know that you are, by definition, completely wrong. Check the family tree of those relatives of yours and you will see I am right. Just because they immigrated to Iran, does not make them non-Arabs.

Additionally, what you shared are not Marafie family websites, they are Marafie-owned foundations. Matter of fact I can see from your IP address that you live in Kuwait, go visit the Marafie diwan and ask Marafie elders what their Nasab is. Abdulhakim1917 (talk) 00:19, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I live in Kuwait. My brother's wife is the grand child of Mohammed Rafie Marafie. She confirmed that the Diwan Marafie website is unofficial. It represents the opinion of one of her male cousins, not عميد العائلة (the patriarch). No one disputes that the Marafie family are of Iranian origin and no one disputes that phenotypically they are not Qahtani. The Marafie family look phenotypically Persian (according to tribal Arabs of Kuwait). There is no actual evidence provided in the 2009 Diwan website that the Marafie family originates from the Qahtan tribe; anyone can claim anything on the internet.

You're the one who should visit the Marafie diwan and ask the Marafie elders what their nasab is. Since you're a Mizrahi Iraqi Jewish person living in Kuwait, surely you'll have no problem finding the diwan and getting into it.

Claimed nasab needs actual evidence if you want the world to take it seriously. Hypothetically speaking tomorrow even I can create a diwan website for my own family and claim we originate from Qahtani tribe.

'Ajam of Kuwait contains many references from renowned universities and researchers funded by the government of Kuwait, if you bothered to read their work you'd understand that Ajam (عيم) is defined as Kuwaiti citizens of Iranian national origin.

The Wikipedia page has nothing to do with people on the internet claiming nasab (without evidence).

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:1851:1F:BC42:8481:7394:77DC:C3EF (talk) 08:41, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]