Talk:Jimmy Wales

This guy is fucking fag. YearsBeyondtheOceans (talk) 20:10, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

If you need to contact Jimbo about something, please do so at his talk page, not here. As Jimbo explains... "People who are trying to leave messages for me will likely be more satisfied if they leave messages on my user talk page than if they leave them here. This is the talk page for the article about me, not a place to talk to me. I rarely read this. --Jimbo Wales 06:05, 23 August 2005 (UTC)"

Birthdate discussions can be found Talk:Jimmy Wales/Birthdate

Image of Sanger

I cant understand why the image of sanders is relevant to the bio article of Jimmy. Do we put images of Clinton on pages on Bush (bad analogy, I know). The bottom line, this article is a BLP about Wales, why Sanders, do you want to continue the controversy, does Jimmy looks better with an image of Sanders. I wish that sysosp talk instead of unding "slaves" work (damn ant colony). You know discussing doesn't kill nobody. Unless. Im mistaken and this page is about the controversy about Sanders/Wales foundership (is that a word?) and not a BLP about Jimmy. Happy editing, --J.Mundo (talk) 07:02, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The image is related to the paragraph in the article. QuackGuru (talk) 07:04, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

You asked for a discussion to occur, as you were continuing to revert to your preferred version? Please read WP:BRD. Also, what QuackGuru said - that image, is relevant to the paragraph in question. Viridae^Talk 07:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Basically, what Quackguru said. The subject of Sanger and Wales' relationship to him is addressed in at least seven paragraphs of the main text, and the image adds information to the article that text could not convey. Alongside the five images of Wales alone, the images of Sanger and his wife Christina are included because these are people important to his life as a public figure, and depicting them adds context. This is fairly standard practice, as seen in many featured articles on biographical topics.  Skomorokh  07:12, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Reply to J.Mundo. There never was a Sanger/Wales foundership controversy. It was original research to claim Wales was the founder. QuackGuru (talk) 07:15, 5 August 2009

Yes, the image is related to the paragraph, sorry to say that is a very simplistic answer. Do yout think Sanders wants his image here or Jimmy want uggly Sanders on this page (no offense to Sanders). I just dont understand, why the fighting spirit of some wikipedians to let this image survive. This is not an image of Sanders and Jimmy in better times, this is just a random image of Sanders, like calling, like saying, read here, we have a controversy. BLP not matter how famous is the person should be like that. I know this is lost cause. I just dont understand, it doesnt fit the page, it break the flow of the reading, Im reading about Wales and then, I see Sanders all alone, like wanting justice or reminding of better times. Well, its too late to make sense.

But QuackGuru, you are right, what controversy? tag with me with the original research tag. --J.Mundo (talk) 07:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I happen to agree. Find a pic of Sanger and Wales together and then it can go in the article. A pic of Sanger alone is superfluous and a distraction. And by the way. One or two of the photos showing Wales alone also should go. Their only information value is in the captions. Instead find pics of Wales with significant people. I would especially like to see a pic of him with Eric Schmidt at Google HQ on the day they hatched their sinister plans to remake the Web in their image.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 07:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

This is not a random image. This is an image when Sanger was younger when he was part of the project. It is not relevant whether Sanger wants his image here or Wales does like or not like it. Without Sanger there never would of been a Wikipedia. Sanger conceived of Wikipedia and led the project and transformed Wikipedia from a communinity board into a fast growing encyclopedia. Under the direction of Sanger's formal proposal, Wikipedia was initially started. I suggest if editors want a different image of Sanger first find a different image before attempting to remove this one. QuackGuru (talk) 07:45, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The image is free, relevant, and illustrative to the topic within the article. End of story. JBsupreme (talk) 08:21, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 19:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Agree, so I inserted a image of Rachel Marsden because is "is free, relevant, and illustrative to the topic within the article." --J.Mundo (talk) 02:39, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Removed as a blatant bit of Sanger promotion; this obsession is damaging the project, nobody should be promoted in this way. Thanks, SqueakBox talk 14:43, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Sanger?

Hardly anyone even remembers Sanger any more, as this article makes clear Wales is known as the founder of wikipedia, anything else is blatant self-promotion. Thanks, SqueakBox talk 14:41, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

The co-founder issue is a done deal. Please curb your WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT urges appropriately, and leave the dead horse alone. You're welcome. Tarc (talk) 16:53, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Are you claiming to own the article now? That is not how wikipedia works. Thanks, SqueakBox talk 13:53, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Nor is repeatedly trying to force through your POV, as you have been doing. Viridae^Talk 13:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

NY Times article makes clear Wales is "a founder of Wikipedia" (see text and picture caption). Discuss. Or rather, please don't. RatSplat ^ooo 09:33, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Making claims we cant discuss this is not going to help your cause; and given the problems with co-founder we cannot draw a close to the discussion for a number of reasons, one of which is the continual opposition to this obvious travesty of the truth. Treating Sanger's self-promotional claim as truth is clearly extremely problematic, violates NPOV, BLP etc. Viridae, significant POVs should always be forced through, its giving undue weight to an insignificant POV, for reasons that appear to have everything to do with wikipedia politics and nothing with writing a balanced and neutral article, that creates problems. I suggets those who want to shut this down go to arbcom and say it is unacceptable for us continue to debate this and that Sanger's point of view must stand as the only significant one. Perhaps arbcom will agree with you and ban anyone from mentioning the subject again. Until then I suggest we continue discussing until this is sorted, as we would with any other article. Thanks, SqueakBox talk 13:43, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

It has been discussed to death Squeakbox, and you know it. The reliable sources including the WMF and Jimmy himself at the tim support the co-founder issue. Why you continue to bring it up I don't know, but you have been pushing this particular POV for years. End of discussion. Go and read the past discussions and come back when you have something new to add. (poor journalism does not constitute new material) Viridae^Talk 13:53, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Squeakbox, there's nothing for any of us to go to arbcom for; reliable sources note that they are co-founders, the article reflects the sources, and quite a consensus of users who have discussed this over and over and over reject your claims of NPOV and BLP violations. Your opinion on the matter has been rejected, repeatedly. But if you think you have something to go to arbcom for, knock yourself out. Tarc (talk) 14:11, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

What, exactly, is your point? There's very, very little control that we (as editors) have over third parties. Our articles are the only things we have influence over, and we've properly labeled Wikipedia as being founded by two people.
A similar "problem" exists with Steve Jobs and Apple. He founded it with Steve Wozniak and Ronald Wayne, though he's frequently just called the founder (sometimes Woz gets mentioned, but Wayne is too obscure). The entire matter has to do with who is active with the organization. Sanger isn't involved in Wikipedia (and hasn't been for a while), so he's not as closely related as Jimbo; similarly, Woz hasn't done anything with Apple for a while, so he's fallen to the wayside when it comes to reporting on Apple. EVula // talk // ☯ // 14:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

And it's an established fact now. Recent article in the Diario de Noticias newspaper which describes Wales and Sangers as the "creators" of wikipedia. Ottre 06:21, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Again, for anyone who hasn't seen it, I found Sanger's collection of evidence "My role in Wikipedia (larrysanger.org)", to be quite persuasive. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 06:35, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I am seriously considering a significant block of SqueakBox if they continue to disrupt the editing environment with this quixotic Sanger/Wales crusade. This has been going on for years, has been discussed to death and consensus is abundantly clear.  Skomorokh  09:10, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Sanger pic

I have removed it, it adds nothing to Wale's bio, and I notice that there is no picture of Wales on Sangers bio. You wouldn't put a picture of hilary clinton on Obama's bio would you? Yet they were so closely tied during the electioon campaign. Off2riorob (talk) 12:30, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

It has been reverted by Skomorokh with an edit summary of...revert: this has been discussed on the talkpage. please contribute there if you want to push the issue. Off2riorob (talk) 12:32, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

What are you claiming to revert my edit? A previous consensus? Off2riorob (talk) 12:33, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Yo, check out the #Image_of_Sanger discussion a few centimeters up – I am an involved party but it seems to me that there is consensus for inclusion. Cheers,  Skomorokh  12:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Hello, I have seen that, I fail to see that that discussion is a consensus at all. Also claims of a previous consensus is not a good reason to revert a good faith edit to your favoured position. Off2riorob (talk) 13:00, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Why would you make an edit regarding a controversial issue that you expressly believe is not supported by consensus? If you would like to pursue the issue, I suggest we invite a request for comment. What do you say?  Skomorokh  13:13, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Also as you are so involved in this situation, why is there no picture of Wales in the equivilent position on Sangers page? Off2riorob (talk) 13:03, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The content of the Sanger article is a matter for editors of that article. I have no objection to there being an image of Wales in that article, and if you want one in, why not raise it at the appropriate talkpage?  Skomorokh  13:13, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

No, I don't think there should be a picture of Wales there either. Also I would say it is more controversial to have sangers picture in this article that not to have it, so actually my edit was not controversial at all. it was simply against your favoured position. Off2riorob (talk) 13:17, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

A RFC, well the first stage is to talk about it, are you ever going to change or move you position regarding this picture of sanger in any way? Off2riorob (talk) 13:23, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

"the first stage is to talk about it" - but we already have, above, quite recently, and I left a less-than-brief rationale I thought. If you think an RfC is premature, then let's continue the discussion of the merits of inclusion in the section above. I'm quite amenable to changing my position if a more convincing argument emerges. Regards,  Skomorokh  13:30, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Really? Honestly? Perhaps I am wrong but I thought you held a very strong opinion standpoint on this and that nothing would move your position. If you are open to change, then lets remove the picture and talk about it. The wheels won't drop off will they? Off2riorob (talk) 13:37, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

We have been discussing meta issues here rather unproductively for the past hour - if you have a proposal to change the status quo regarding the image's inclusion, please join the discussion on its merits and we shall see what consensus emerges.  Skomorokh  13:46, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

It's not a meta issue, If you are not prepared to move your position in any way, what is the point of discussing it with you? Where is this status quo? I challenge you to revert to my good faith edit and then start honest discussion with me. Off2riorob (talk) 13:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Look, I have already, a very short time ago, declared that I am very prepared to change my position if I am convinced otherwise. "status quo" means the current state of things i.e. the most recent revision of the article at the time of writing. Thirdly, the implication that my contributions here have been lacking in honesty is very unhelpful. I re-iterate: join the existing discussion or start a new one, convince us.  Skomorokh  14:01, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

There is no existing discussion, there is just me an you. Here look at this...I dislike this edit [[1]] , is is imo awful and poor and against any kind of what could be claimed to be current consensus, but I have left the edit and gone to the talk page Talk:Kenny_MacAskill#Copyedit_on_release_section and am trying to talk to him and hopefully other editors will come along and add to the discussion, I dislike the edit a lot, but I have left it, at least for some time, I suggest when someone changes an edit from what is your favoured position that talking to them first is better than reverting them to your favoured position. Off2riorob (talk) 14:26, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The discussion on the appropriateness of the inclusion of the image of Larry Sanger is right here. If you for whatever reason don't recognise or otherwise disapprove of that discussion about the inclusion of the image, please feel free to start another one. This, I hope, is my last comment on the matter of discussing the discussions. Let's please focus on the content.  Skomorokh  14:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

You didn't answer my challenge, I challenge you to revert to my good faith edit and then start honest discussion with me. Off2riorob (talk) 14:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, looking at the previous discussion that you referred to as the consensus to revert my good faith edit was actually four editors in favour of inclusion and three against and my edit was equal to four all and you had no right to revert it like you did. Off2riorob (talk) 14:58, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I dispute your claim that there is any consensus to keep this picture in. Off2riorob (talk) 15:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Allow me to restate what I said a few inches up-screen. I would much prefer a picture of Wales and Sanger together in the same frame instead of a pic of Sanger alone. I also said that there were too many pictures of Wales, all at a similar age, with no distinguishing characteristics. --Goodmorningworld (talk) 19:28, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The Sanger picture has been removed again, this time (by User:Steven Walling) and I support its removal. As I said here, there is no consensus to keep the picture in and it is clearly a contentious addition as it keeps getting removed. I suggest that we leave it out and have a discussion regarding it. Off2riorob (talk) 07:58, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

User:JBsupreme has put it back with an edit sum of, please use talk page. He must have missed this, so it is clearly contentious as it is in out in out, so I 've removed it and suggest a discussion here. Off2riorob (talk) 08:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

User:JBsupreme has inserted the picture again without any attempt to discuss it here on the talkpage? He used the edit summary of, he can see no consensus for removal, I thought that with a contentious edit inclusion was the thing that required consensus? I also think that the picture is only being inserted by editors with such strong opinions about the original debate regarding who created wiki that they have what could be described as a conflict of interest. Off2riorob (talk) 08:36, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

FYI, images are supposed to stay in the article for the duration of the content dispute. It's not the same as with disputed text. See Talk:Mumbai for a recent example. Ottre 10:10, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

meanwhile....I am here talking to myself..... Off2riorob (talk) 08:37, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the image is all that relevant. Sanger doesn't have the appearance of a philosopher. Ottre 09:45, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, imo the picture adds little or nothing of value to Wales bio. The picture is actually a bit demeaning of Sanger, looks like a mugshot. It could be removed as a BLP protection of Sanger. Thanks for the link Ottre. Off2riorob (talk) 10:26, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Whether or not Sanger looks like a philosopher is irrelevant, because it is not included as a picture of a philosopher, it's included as a picture of Sanger, who happens to be one. It's already been established in the above discussion that the image adds value and why. As to the idea that the image ought to be removed for "BLP protection of Sanger", well now you're really clutching at straws.  Skomorokh  13:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

You seem blinded by your desires, as I said there is no clear consensus to include this picture of sanger and continually referrng to the section up the page does little to support your position, the picture is contentious and is constantly being removed, I suggest an expanded debate to find what the consensus actually is. I am for its strong removal. I would ask you to put your strongly held beliefs about sanger to one side and look at the situation from a neutral point of view and consider the benefit to the article. Off2riorob (talk) 14:10, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

THe image of Sanger is suitable because multiple paragraphs refer to him, continually by name and he had a defining role in the founding of wikipedia, which most of the article is dedicated to. Viridae^Talk 21:10, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I would say you are over egging the importance of sanger in wales bio, sure he was employed for a couple of years but his involvement in Wales bio is minimal. This is not a story about the birth of the wiki, it is Wales bio, and insisting on inserting sanger's picture here is excessive weight in jimbo's life story. Perhaps on another page, but not here.Off2riorob (talk) 21:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

The fact that there is no picture of them together just says it all. Off2riorob (talk) 22:10, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you know something that the rest of us don't know? Much more likely is that a picture of both in the same frame exists but it hasn't been made available yet. --Goodmorningworld (talk) 07:50, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Yea, what it says is that you are falling back on extremely weak and absurd arguments. Seriously; "there isn't a picture of them together, therefore a picture of Sanger alone is excessive weight" ? Tarc (talk) 22:46, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I am saying, if there is no picture of him with the subject then, how important is he? Off2riorob (talk) 22:52, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I get that, and what I am saying is that it is an extremely ridiculous and logically fallacious point to attempt here. Tarc (talk) 23:00, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Blimey, lack of evidence =/= evidence of lack. Viridae^Talk 04:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

That is ridiculous. Ottre 12:39, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Alfred "Ed Moch" Cota

• Moved to User Talk:Jimbo Wales, where it may be more appropriate. Rodhullandemu 23:23, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Panera Bread photo-op

Quoting from "There's no end to it" by Curtis Krueger [2], St. Petersburg Times, 8 November 2004, page 1E:

“ Wales, 38, has lived in St. Petersburg about two years. He spends countless hours working without a salary for Wikipedia, from his downtown office, from his laptop at Panera Bread or elsewhere, or at the Shore Acres house he shares with his wife and 3-year-old daughter. ”

Do we have any good photographers nearby? Ottre 13:50, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Stalking implications aside, and not that we need any more photos, I do believe he no longer lives in Florida.  Skomorokh  13:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

You don't find it interesting that he settled in so quickly? He obviously found the work enjoyable if he was taking the laptop with him to lunch in several different cafes. Ottre 14:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, I don't know how objective this sentence is:

"Wales has said that he initially was so worried with the concept that he would wake up in the middle of the night, wanting to check the site for vandalism."

How could he be completely convinced of any new technology right after losing most of his $500,000 investment in Nupedia? Far more important in my mind to show whether he was corresponding with people in the open-source movement. I think Andrew Lih describes some of those involved with the site as "programming gurus" who by 2003 had convinced Wales that the site was working. Ottre 14:37, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

A few comments

• It is very unusual to be born "Jimmy", is it definitely not "James" or "Jim" or "Jamie"?
• There should be an IPA as "Donal" is likely to be mispronounced by many.
• There isn't anything about his ethnicity. His surname is of Welsh origin and his middle name is Gaelic, some sources should mention his origin.
• The image with the caption "Wales appearing as a member of the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees on a panel at Wikimania 2007." should be moved to the right so he is facing towards the text. Spiderone 11:30, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

On the first point, I'm not sure we imply that Jimmy is his birthname at any point, just the most common name; Britannica does the same by leading with "Jimmy Donal Wales". The Florida Trend is the source of our "Jimmy Donal "Jimbo" Wales".

I agree that an IPA would be an improvement.

I don't remember seeing references to his ethnicity in the sources, but I will look again.

On the last point; according to MOS:IMAGE, "It is often preferable to place images of faces so that the face or eyes look toward the text." Wales' eyes are looking to the right in the image, and so should the image not be on the left so that the text is to its right?

Thanks for the comments!  Skomorokh  13:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes you're right about the image. I just saw that his body was facing left and assumed his eyes were too. About his ancestry, surely Jimbo himself views this page. Could he not add his own ancestry? I've searched the internet by putting things like "Jimmy Wales" + "Welsh" in but nothing comes up. Spiderone 15:09, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

We generally discourage editors from writing about themselves per the conflict of interest guideline; in general it is difficult for editors to be impartial on the subject, and what they add from their own personal knowledge is often not independently verifiable. So we would need independent reliable sources to confirm any info about Wales' ethnicity. I haven't found anything either, unfortunately.  Skomorokh  15:15, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

@Spiderone: As far as I am aware, the only reliable source which has ever claimed that he is Welsh is "Milk, biscuits and thinking of Sydney... What else would we expect Rob Brydon's interests to be?" by Robin Turner, The Western Mail, 5 December 2008, page 12.

“ In all there are 18 new Welsh entrants in the 2009 version of [Who's Who], which sees celebrities rubbing shoulders with artists, ambassadors and air vice-marshals. [...] There's comedian Rob Brydon, judge Tudor WynOwen, Specsavers co-owner and MD Doug Perkins, Rev Geoffrey Osbourne Marshall, actor Daniel Wroughton Craig, Mary Berry the TV cook, Pink Floyd co-founder David Gilmour, Annie Nightingale the veteran DJ, football pundit Mark Lawrenson and Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales. ”

Daniel Craig isn't at all Welsh. Spiderone 17:17, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Try searching combinations of those names. If you find two other reliable sources which mention him as being Welsh, we can include the information per WP:V. Ottre 20:30, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I can't find anything but I've added an IPA Spiderone 07:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

How many Welsh newspapers have you searched? Also, it's condescending to tell people how to pronounce Jimmy. Ottre 09:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes but then won't non-English speakers be confused by "Jimmy Wales (pronounced Donal Wales)"? Spiderone 17:12, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Suggest adding Mr. Wales more current activities Green Wikia [3]

From Wikia Wikia Green ... Wikia Green is a wiki operated by Wikia, Inc. focusing on environmental issues. Jimmy Wales started the project after a conversation with environmentalist activist and politician Al Gore, who suggested creating a green wiki.. "Wikipedia Founder Goes Green" announced on 9th of September, 2008 by 350.org regarding a new wiki.