Jump to content

Talk:Barack Obama: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
←Replaced content with 'The article on President Obama is uncommonly comprehensive but equally uncommonly omits references or comments about military service. Military service may ...'
Line 1: Line 1:
The article on President Obama is uncommonly comprehensive but equally uncommonly omits references or comments about military service. Military service may be overrated as either a prerequisite or benefit for political involvement in these united states, but is usually included in any biography.
{{Skip to talk}}
{{Talk header|noarchive=yes}}
{{purgebox}}
{{ArticleHistory|action1=FAC
|action1date=12 August 2004
|action1link=Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Barack Obama
|action1result=Promoted
|action1oldid=5174535

|action2=WPR
|action2date=18 August 2004
|action2link=Wikipedia:Today's featured article/August 18, 2004
|action2result=Maindate
|action2oldid=5294576

|action3=FAR
|action3date=09:53, 23 January 2007
|action3link=Wikipedia:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive1
|action3result=pass
|action3oldid=102622704

|action4=FAR
|action4date=22:24, July 26, 2007
|action4link=Wikipedia:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive2
|action4result=pass
|action4oldid=147098144

|action5=FAR
|action5date=06:08, 15 April 2008
|action5link=Wikipedia:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive3
|action5result=kept
|action5oldid=205714008

|action6=FAR
|action6date=12:56, 16 September 2008
|action6link=Wikipedia:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive4
|action6result=kept
|action6oldid=239534110

|action7=WPR
|action7date=4 November 2008
|action7link=Wikipedia:Today's featured article/November 4, 2008
|action7result=Maindate
|action7oldid=249529065

|action8=FAR
|action8date=17:30, 2 December 2008
|action8link=Wikipedia:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive5
|action8result=kept
|action8oldid=255411914

|action9=FAR
|action9date=03:36, 10 March 2009
|action9link=Wikipedia:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive6
|action9result=kept
|action9oldid=276168026

|action10=FAR
|action10date=23:34, 16 March 2010
|action10link=Wikipedia:Featured article review/Barack Obama/archive7
|action10result=kept
|action10oldid=349918777

|maindate=November 4, 2008
|itndate=November 5, 2008

|currentstatus=FA
}}
{{User:MiszaBot/config
|archiveheader = {{aan}}
|maxarchivesize = 285K
|counter = 73
|minthreadsleft = 1
|algo = old(25d)
|archive = Talk:Barack Obama/Archive %(counter)d
}}
{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn
|target=Talk:Barack Obama/Archive index
|mask=Talk:Barack Obama/Archive <#>
|mask=Talk:Barack Obama/Article probation
|mask=Talk:Barack Obama/Article probation/Incidents
|mask=Talk:Barack Obama/Historical diffs
|mask=Talk:Barack Obama/weight
|mask=Talk:Barack Obama/race
|leading_zeros=0
|indexhere=yes
}}
{{pp-move-indef}}
{{FAQ|quickedit=no}}
{{bots|deny=Xenobot Mk V}}
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|blp=yes|collapsed=yes|activepol=yes|1=
{{WikiProject Biography|living=yes|activepol=yes|class=FA|politician-work-group=yes|politician-priority=top|listas=Obama, Barack}}
{{WikiProject Barack Obama|class=FA|importance=Top}}
{{WikiProject U.S. Congress|class=FA|subject=person|importance=High}}
{{WikiProject Illinois|class=FA|importance=high}}
{{WikiProject Hawaii|class=FA|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Kansas|class=FA|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Chicago|class=FA|importance=Top}}
{{WikiProject Columbia University|class=FA|importance=high}}
{{WikiProject Indonesia|class=FA|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject African diaspora|class=FA|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Politics|importance=mid|class=FA}}
{{WikiProject Africa|class=FA|importance=mid|Kenya=yes|Kenya-importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia|class=FA|Barack_Obama_1-31-2007.ogg}}
{{WikiProject United States
|class=FA
|importance=Top
|DC=yes
|DC-importance=High
|USGov=yes
|USGov-importance=low
|USSL=yes
|USSL-importance=Low
|USPresidents=yes
|USPresidents-importance=Top
}}
{{WPCD-People|class=FA}}
}}
{{press
| title = On Wikipedia, Debating 2008 Hopefuls' Every Facet
| author = [[Jose Antonio Vargas]]
| date = September 17, 2007
| url = http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/16/AR2007091601699.html
| org = [[The Washington Post]]
| title2 = 'Round the Clock: Obama, Clinton Wiki-Warfare
| author2 = [[Alison Stewart]], Rachel Martin
| date2 = April 3,2008
| url2 = http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89333759&sc=emaf
| org2 = [[The Bryant Park Project]], [[NPR]]
| title3 = Editors in Chief
| author3 = [[Brooke Gladstone]], [[Bob Garfield]]
| date3 = April 4, 2008
| url3 = http://www.onthemedia.org/transcripts/2008/04/04/02
| org3 = [[On The Media]], NPR
| title4 = Wiki Woman
| author4 = Eve Fairbanks
| date4 = April 9, 2008
| url4 = http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=4f0c6aa3-3028-4ca4-a3b9-a053716ee53d&p=1
| org4 = [[The New Republic]]
| title5= Hillary's Wiki Defender
| author5 = Jesse Brown
| date5= April 10, 2008
| url5=http://www.cbc.ca/searchengine/blog/2008/04/this_weeks_show_april_1008.html
| org5= [[Search Engine (radio show)|Search Engine]], [[CBC Radio One]]
| title6= Wikipedia Wars
| author6 = [[Tom Foreman]]
| date6= April 11, 2008
| url6= http://www.charter.net/video/?vendid=35&vid=142269
| org6= [[This Week...]], [[CNN]]
| title7= Liberal Web
| author7 = [[John J. Miller]]
| date7= April 21, 2008
| url7=http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_7_60/ai_n25474310/print?tag=artBody;col1
| org7= [[National Review]]
| title8= Clinton's entry in Wikipedia has a watchdog
| author8 = Kelly Heyboer
| date8= May 28, 2008
| url8=<!--http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-13/1211949334324290.xml&coll=1--> http://blog.nj.com/digitallife/2008/05/hillary_clintons_wikipedia_wat.html
| org8= [[The Star-Ledger]]
| title9=NJ Man Appoints Himself Wikipedia Watchdog
| author9 = Paul Murnane
| date9= May 28, 2008
| url9=http://www.wcbs880.com/topic/play_window.php?audioType=Episode&audioId=2400703
| org9= [[WCBS (AM)|WCBS Newsradio 880]]
| title10= Updating a Reference Site on the Fly
| author10= Noam Cohen
| date10= November 9, 2008
| url10= http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/10/technology/internet/10link.html
| org10= [[The New York Times]]
| title11= Obama Wikipedia page under possible security attack
| author11= Adrian Bridgwater
| date11= January 22, 2009
| url11= http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,1000000567,10011960o-2000458459b,00.htm
| org11= [[ZDNet]]
| title12= Wikipedia scrubs Obama eligibility
| author12= [[Aaron Klein]]
| date12= March 8, 2009
| url12= http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91114
| org12= [[WorldNetDaily]]
| title13= Obama's Wikipedia Page Distances President from Wright and Ayers
| author13= Joshua Rhett Miller
| date13= March 9, 2009
| url13= http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,507244,00.html
| org13= [[Fox News Channel]]
| title14= Barack Obama 'receives preferential treatment on Wikipedia', report claims
| author14= Mark Coleman
| date14= March 10, 2009
| url14= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/technology/wikipedia/4965132/Barack-Obama-receives-preferential-treatment-on-Wikipedia-report-claims.html
| org14= [[The Daily Telegraph]]
| title15= Wikipedia May Be a Font of Facts, but It’s a Desert for Photos
| author15= Noam Cohen
| date15= July 19, 2009
| url15= http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/20/arts/20funny.html
| org15= [[The New York Times]]
| author16=Staff
|date16=August 17, 2009
|url16=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/6043534/The-50-most-viewed-Wikipedia-articles-in-2009-and-2008.html
|title16=The 50 most-viewed Wikipedia articles in 2009 and 2008
|org16=[[The Daily Telegraph]]
}}
{{Community article probation|main page=Barack Obama|BASEPAGENAME=Barack Obama|[[Wikipedia:General sanctions/Obama article probation]] for full information and to review the decision}}
{{archives
|auto=yes
|search=yes
|bot=MiszaBot
|age=25
|index= /Archive index|
<br/><center>'''Special discussion pages'''<br/>
[[/Article probation|Article probation]], [[/Article probation/Incidents|Incidents]]<br/>
[[/Historical diffs|Historical diffs]], [[/weight|Weight]], [[/race|Race]]</center>}}

== Obama's hair ==

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1348933/Has-Barack-Obama-dyed-hair-black-hide-greying-locks.html

Worth to include say: "Observers have said the U.S. President's hair has changed colour dramatically because of the pressures of the job since he assumed office two years ago." <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/91.83.185.42|91.83.185.42]] ([[User talk:91.83.185.42|talk]]) 12:59, 2 September 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:The same can be (and is) said about almost every US president. It isn't notable. --[[User:OuroborosCobra|OuroborosCobra]] ([[User talk:OuroborosCobra|talk]]) 20:51, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
:Agreed, there is similar articles in relation to President George W. Bush hair. Not notable. [[User:Phearson|Phearson]] ([[User talk:Phearson|talk]]) 02:24, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

::My hair underwent a similar color change at a similar age. I wasn't the the President. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 07:50, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
::: Anyway, being the president is stressful. Anyone's hair would go grey- look what happened to Tony Blair! <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/89.240.75.196|89.240.75.196]] ([[User talk:89.240.75.196|talk]]) 06:58, 18 October 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::::A man who was never president... --[[User:OuroborosCobra|OuroborosCobra]] ([[User talk:OuroborosCobra|talk]]) 10:48, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

:::::Still, he was an equivalent. But you get the idea. [[User:Phearson|Phearson]] ([[User talk:Phearson|talk]]) 02:06, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

== Templates ==

Could someone looks at how the templates are set up at the bottom of this page please? The issue is that there are links instead of templates down there. I've not seen anything like it before, and I am not sure how to fix it. Thank you in advance. [[User:Backtable|<font color = "2F4F4F">Backtable </font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Backtable|<font color = "5F9EA0">Speak to me</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Backtable|<font color = "DA70D6">concerning my deeds.</font>]]</sub> 07:45, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

:I have requested assistance at the [[WP:VPT|''technical'' Village Pump]]. Since the issue appears to affect only the final thirteen templates in the article, perhaps the article has exceed some sort of [[Wikipedia:Transclusion|transclusion]] limit. -- '''[[User:Black Falcon|Black Falcon]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Black Falcon|talk]])</sup> 17:15, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

{{od|3}}
I saw this at [[WP:VPT]], and can offer a technical fix, but it is not without its own problems. Essentially, I have substituted a large number of templates, so that they are no longer transcluded. You can see the result at [[User:NSH001/sandbox 2]].

The technique is to use Special:Expand templates to substitute some of the citation templates - in this case, those placed as list-defined references in the "Notes" section. This process is NOT straightforward - Special:Expand templates won't expand templates within <nowiki><ref> ... </ref></nowiki> tags, so the ref tags have to be edited first, then Special:Expand templates applied, then the tags edited back again, then the wikitext finally pasted back into the article (I used an external text editor to edit the ref tags).

The advantages are that fewer templates are now transcluded, so the limits are no longer breached, and the page will load a little faster.

The disadvantages are the difficulty of future maintenance: firstly any global changes made to the citation templates will no longer be reflected in the article; secondly it becomes much harder to edit these citations (it might even be necessary to maintain a separate subpage (probably of this talk page) to hold the un-substituted version of the templates).

Because of these disadvantages, I have not made any changes to the article. Instead, I think it should be discussed here first. If you decide to use it, all that's needed is to copy/paste the wikitext from the "Notes" section of my sandbox version over the corresponding wikitext in the mainspace article.

My own view is that this should be regarded as a temporary fix only. This is a Featured Article, so it can and should be trimmed, either deleting material altogether, or moving it to appropriate "Main" articles.

--[[User:NSH001|NSH001]] ([[User talk:NSH001|talk]]) 15:32, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

:Thank you for your informative comment. I think you're correct that the best approach, in the long term, would be to trim the article of unnecessary references (the article includes hundreds and multiple citations often are used to support a single fact) and information that should be moved to sub-articles. -- '''[[User:Black Falcon|Black Falcon]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Black Falcon|talk]])</sup> 05:15, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
::I have removed ([http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&diff=next&oldid=453315030 diff]) the following YouTube reference in the section '[[Barack Obama#2008 presidential campaign|2008 presidential campaign]]': <small>{{Cite news|title=Presidential Campaign Announcement|format=video|date=February 10, 2007|publisher=YouTube.com|url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdJ7Ad15WCA&feature=channel_page|work=BarackObamadotcom|accessdate=January 29, 2009}}</small> The information which the source supports is noted in the other sources that are cited: ''Chicago Tribune'' (two articles) and ''BBC News''. -- '''[[User:Black Falcon|Black Falcon]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Black Falcon|talk]])</sup> 05:21, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
:::The templates are only a part of the problem. The whole article, in my opinion, needs a major re-write, with substantial trimming. --[[User:NSH001|NSH001]] ([[User talk:NSH001|talk]]) 05:45, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
::::Yes, I noticed the "exceeding template call size" errors. I think it has too many references, over 300+, and then there are 10 different refs within those 300+ citations. Needs major trimming! --[[User:Funandtrvl|Funandtrvl]] ([[User talk:Funandtrvl|talk]]) 22:37, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
:::::When I swapped out the Barack Obama/succession tmp, that fixed the tmp call limits error. I also mved that tmp to ''not'' be a subtmp of the main tmp, because I think that was also adding to the tmp calls. --[[User:Funandtrvl|Funandtrvl]] ([[User talk:Funandtrvl|talk]]) 16:07, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
::::::That does look like a better solution for the immediate problem (BTW, renaming the template makes no difference to the overhead caused by calling one template from another). If no-one here has any objections within the next couple of days or so, I will delete my sandbox version. The best solution, of course, remains a re-write of this article. --[[User:NSH001|NSH001]] ([[User talk:NSH001|talk]]) 22:18, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
:::::Thanks, I wasn't sure about the template subpage causing problems or not. The major problem now with the article is that it has too many citations, the "cite web" template must also be causing the template call overload. I've been working on paring them down and combining the duplicates using "ref name", but it is somewhat difficult to decide which citations to keep and which should go; and I'm sure someone would disagree with my choices! Does anyone have any suggestions? --[[User:Funandtrvl|Funandtrvl]] ([[User talk:Funandtrvl|talk]]) 22:57, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

== Israel/Palestine ==

It seems the Israel section needs some revision to reflect Obama's policy positions. Right now it reads that he supports a "two state solution", and while I am sure he has said those words in his speeches, that is not his policy. He officially opposes recognizing Palestine as an independent state and officially opposes allowing them a vote at the United Nations, unless they agree to various hardline conditions such has agreeing never to have an army and not having a right of return. No such conditions are put on recognizing Israel an an independent state. [[Special:Contributions/97.91.176.159|97.91.176.159]] ([[User talk:97.91.176.159|talk]]) 00:08, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
:Sources please, and I'm afraid that only his actual policies and opinions can be included. [[User:Flinders Petrie|Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie]] &#124; <sup>[[user_talk:Flinders Petrie|Say Shalom!]]</sup> 3 Tishrei 5772 05:31, 1 October 2011 (UTC) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.24.211.105|70.24.211.105]] ([[User talk:70.24.211.105|talk]]) </span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::Sources? Really? Is it not established that he officially opposes recognizining palestine as a state while he does recognize israel? It seems people who are locking his page should already be able to source this, but here you go. No only does he not recognize them as an indpeendent state, but he opposses others doing so, and vows to veto it at the united nations if they vote to recognize palestine. Once again, israel is recognized fully with no conditions. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44606988/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/obama-abbas-us-will-veto-palestinian-statehood-bid/ http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/obama-to-abbas-u-s-will-veto-palestinian-statehood-bid-at-un-1.385932 [[Special:Contributions/97.91.176.159|97.91.176.159]] ([[User talk:97.91.176.159|talk]]) 09:17, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
:::It is clear from his speeches (and sources) that Obama does indeed favor a two-state solution; however, the United States is very particular about ''how'' this will occur because of its close relationship with Israel. Just because the US did not support the most recent effort to gain Palestinian statehood, it does not follow that the US ''opposes'' Palestinian statehood. I don't think the political ins and outs of the US policies with respect to Palestine and Israel are appropriate to explore in a biography of Obama's life, though I think the specific positions of the Obama administration should probably be made clear in [[Presidency of Barack Obama]]. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 12:42, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
::::Yes, "Sources, really". We cannot simply say "OMG everybody knows that". That's not how Wiki works. Reputable sources, without synthesis on our part.[[Special:Contributions/204.65.34.246|204.65.34.246]] ([[User talk:204.65.34.246|talk]]) 16:44, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok so we have a source. but your are still not changing the article. There is infact no mention of his opposition to a Palestinian state at all. And it actually tries to imply the opposite, saying that he is for a two stzte solution, which is clearly not the case, He only recognizies Israel, not Palestine as a state. 15:12, 30 October 2011 (UTC) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/97.91.176.159|97.91.176.159]] ([[User talk:97.91.176.159|talk]]) </span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Obama's statements regarding vetoing the Palestine resolution are very clear in that he does support the eventual creation of such a state, but not through unilateral action by the Palestinians at the United Nations. --[[User:OuroborosCobra|OuroborosCobra]] ([[User talk:OuroborosCobra|talk]]) 15:22, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
:Short memo: ''Obama'' cannot recognize any state or country. The US does or doesn't. [[User:Seb az86556|Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556]] <sup>[[User_talk:Seb_az86556|> haneʼ]]</sup> 15:26, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

== Whole lot wrong with this article ==

This article seems like it is just a bunch of pieces mixed together. It is very disjointed and the selection of what appears is not comprehensive. It could be a result of political supporters or opponents crafting together an article. The percentage of online people supporting him is slightly greater so that affects the article.

There should be entirely new people reviewing this article because the people who wrote it probably put a lot of time into it but the product is not good. I am not going to be a reviewer except to choose one paragraph.

The paragraph

As president, Obama signed economic stimulus legislation in the form of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act in February 2009 and the Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act in December 2010. Other domestic policy initiatives include the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, the Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, the Don't Ask, Don't Tell Repeal Act and the Budget Control Act of 2011. In foreign policy, he gradually withdrew combat troops from Iraq, increased troop levels in Afghanistan, signed the New START arms control treaty with Russia, ordered enforcement of the UN-sanctioned no-fly zone over Libya, and ordered the military operation that resulted in the death of Osama bin Laden in Pakistan. In April 2011, Obama declared his intention to seek re-election in the 2012 presidential election.[4]

The critique

This is in the introduction. It is just a selection of laws that people have selected. Some of them are not really Obama related, only happened to be President. This is because some of them were not his campaigning. If we use that measure, then the Lady Gaga article could have mention of some of these bills (just kidding).

My advice is to work on one paragraph every two weeks and really see if you need it. Start with the first paragraph.

With this sample paragraph, listing these bills looks like an ad. One way to fix it would be to see what are Obama's major accomplishments. They are the stimulus bill (don't need to have those fancy bill names as they are now chosen because of politics), Obama's health care.

Another way to fix it
Another way to fix it would be to have a new committee of people who have never written about Obama and have them craft an article. Then compare and contrast. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Hood River|Hood River]] ([[User talk:Hood River|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Hood River|contribs]]) 05:23, 1 October 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

===Version 2, Getting rid of obscure parts of the article not very related to the Obama bio===
Yet another way, probably better is to step back and pick 4 paragraphs to do an introduction.

paragraph 1: general introduction as the 44th President, African American, Democrat, etc.

paragraph 2: Previous background as Hawaii, Indonesia, etc. College where. After college and law school. Illinois Senate, US Senate.

paragraph 3: Very broad Presidential summary. Term marred by recession, had stimulus, Obama health care, possible loss of House due to Obama health care. Not a lot of law mentioned here.

paragraph 4: Other things, like author, Nobel Prize, but certainly not the 2010 Siena College poll (which shouldn't even be in the main article...why is it even there!) [[User:Hood River|Hood River]] ([[User talk:Hood River|talk]]) 05:32, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
:Articles as important as this one are subject to a lot of scrutiny, and are edited on an incremental basis. There's no mechanism in Wikipedia for appointing editing committees or requiring all the active editors to recuse themselves. If you have a specific proposal, please feel free to make it for editors' consideration. I do agree that the scattershot list of presidential actions is incomplete and hasn't been weighted properly by the importance or the extent of Obama's role. I disagree about the Siena College poll, at least as a matter of approach. This article is a biography of the President, his life and career, and for that purpose presidential scholars assessing him as a president are a lot more relevant than various journalists writing about specific events. - [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 07:52, 1 October 2011 (UTC)c

I agree with Wikidemon's assessment that the article is a scatterbrained list of presidentials events. Voting is silly because then it will reflect his popularity. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Demonwiki2|Demonwiki2]] ([[User talk:Demonwiki2|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Demonwiki2|contribs]]) 01:56, 18 October 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->Some ideas mentionedd are good in theory. There should not be a laundry list of bills that President Obama signed. I removed a few trivial ones, trivial in the sense that President Obama did not campaign hard for these bills, did not make it an issue. If we let a lot of less relevant stuff be in the article, soon it will be an article about "The World during Barack Obama's Presidency", not "Barack Obama".

Here is what I removed:

The first bill signed into law by Obama was the [[Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009]], relaxing the statute of limitations for equal-pay lawsuits.<ref>{{Cite news|title=Obama Signs Equal-Pay Legislation|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/30/us/politics/30ledbetter-web.html|accessdate=June 15, 2009|date=January 30, 2009}}</ref> Five days later, he signed the reauthorization of the [[State Children's Health Insurance Program]] (SCHIP) to cover an additional 4&nbsp;million children currently uninsured.<ref>{{Cite news|title=Obama signs into law expansion of SCHIP health-care program for children|work=Chicago Tribune|url=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-kids-health-care_thufeb05,0,30310.story|accessdate=June 15, 2009|first=Noam N.|last=Levey}}</ref>

On October 8, 2009, Obama signed the [[Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act]], a measure that expands the [[Hate crimes in the United States#Federal prosecution of hate crimes|1969 United States federal hate-crime law]] to include crimes motivated by a victim's actual or perceived [[gender]], [[sexual orientation]], [[gender identity]], or [[disability]].<ref>{{cite news |url=http://www.baywindows.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=glbt&sc2=news&sc3=&id=98285|title=President Barack Obama signs hate crimes legislation into law |newspaper=[[Bay Windows]]|date=October 28, 2009|accessdate=October 12, 2011}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news|url=http://articles.cnn.com/2009-10-28/politics/hate.crimes_1_crimes-gay-rights-human-rights-campaign?_s=PM:POLITICS|title=Obama signs hate crimes bill into law|publisher=CNN|date=October 28, 2009|accessdate=October 12, 2011}}</ref>

On March 30, 2010, Obama signed the [[Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010|Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act]], a [[reconciliation bill]] which ends the process of the federal government giving subsidies to private banks to give out federally insured loans, increases the [[Pell Grant]] scholarship award, and makes changes to the [[Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act]].<ref>{{Cite news|last=Parsons|first=Christi|url=http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/30/nation/la-na-obama-college31-2010mar31|title=Obama signs student loan reforms into law|work=Los Angeles Times|date=March 30, 2010|accessdate=April 18, 2010}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news|url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2010/03/obama-signs-higher-education-m.html|work=The Washington Post|accessdate=April 12, 2010|title=Obama signs higher-education measure into law|last=Branigin|first=William}}</ref>

If you don't agree, cite where Obama was a key driving factor in these laws or cite articles where he made it a big deal. Issues that Obama made a big deal include closing Gitmo and the stimulus packages. [[User:Hi Balloon Boy|Hi Balloon Boy]] ([[User talk:Hi Balloon Boy|talk]]) 02:39, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

{{reflist}}

:''Restored''. Please don't remove cited content without first establishing a consensus for doing so. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 02:41, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

::Reverted back. Please note that you may not be a bully but you are doing bullying because you offer no reason. Wikipedia allows people to be Bold. My boldness is very logical, not radical. I offered a good explanation. You offered none. Therefore, my logical prevails. Please do not change it back. [[User:Hi Balloon Boy|Hi Balloon Boy]] ([[User talk:Hi Balloon Boy|talk]]) 02:50, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

:::No, your "boldness" is vandalism. You have removed cited, relevant content without even making a passing attempt at establishing a consensus for doing so. My reversion is clear proof that your edit was disputed, so removing the content again is a violation. Restore it immediately. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 02:53, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

::::Instead of removing that material, how about added to it in order to clarify how much Obama was involved in the passage of those laws? BTW, each of you needs to [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|assume the other editor's good faith]]. [[User:SMP0328.|SMP0328.]] ([[User talk:SMP0328.|talk]]) 03:00, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

::::You are being criminal in falsely accusing people of vandalism. Very little was removed. All was discussed. If you disagree, you should state in a calm and logical fashion... "I think 'The Trivial Act of 2009' is an important part of President Obama's bio because he campaigned about it a lot before being President". If you give that kind of reasoning, I will probably agree with you. Instead, you just say "no, no, no, I am throwing a temper tantrum, I accuse you of vandalism and genocide and every other crime I can think of". [[User:Hi Balloon Boy|Hi Balloon Boy]] ([[User talk:Hi Balloon Boy|talk]]) 03:04, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

:::::To SMPO0328, you are more mature than Scjessey. Go for it. Research how President Obama was for the bills and how he made it a big part of his campaign. Obviously, he was for it a bit because he signed it. However, just being for it a bit is not enough (otherwise, we would have to list all the bills that he signed). Here's the deal. I will let off the article for a day but Scjessey or others should not knee jerk insert the material back in. Come on, people can think of the reason to include what and not include what! [[User:Hi Balloon Boy|Hi Balloon Boy]] ([[User talk:Hi Balloon Boy|talk]]) 03:04, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

::::::@SMP0328 - I did AGF. See [[User talk:Hi Balloon Boy|here]] for further details.
::::::@Hi Balloon Boy - You can't just go around deleting great chunks of a featured article without first establishing a consensus for doing so. Having been told this, to then do so ''again'' was vandalism. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 03:10, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

The removal of the hate crime paragraph makes sense because Obama did not make it a big issue about hate crimes. The Ledbetter part some people may want since it was the first, but not really a notable first. So hate crimes, no, Ledbetter, maybe if enough people really want it. Sorry, HBB you win some, lose some. Same to Scjessey...please both of you get along.[[User:BAMP|BAMP]] ([[User talk:BAMP|talk]]) 14:16, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
:Why have you removed that paragraph? It was a key piece of legislation, important to an enormous group of people. Your edit summary is also disgracefully misleading. Please self-revert. -- 15:10, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
::::I agree that the gay legislation is very important to gay people. However, this article is about Obama, not Gay Rights. '''I see that there is a consensus that these laws are an obscure part of Obama's bio. Not one person has provided evidence that they are major parts of the Obama bio. ''' He did not campaign hard for it, like he did for the Gitmo closure or for Obama health care changes. [[User:Hi Balloon Boy|Hi Balloon Boy]] ([[User talk:Hi Balloon Boy|talk]]) 14:13, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

:Stop this. First of all, the user that started this thread has been indeffed, and it's not so strange that both [[User:Hi Balloon Boy|Hi Balloon Boy]] and [[User:BAMP|BAMP]] are disrupting this article once again, since they are [[WP:SOCK|socks]] of JB50000. Which someone will need to add to the [[WP:SPI|SPI]] case. Irritating that the socks are not already blocked. [[User:DD2K|Dave Dial]] ([[User talk:DD2K|talk]]) 16:01, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
:::::There are 300M Americans and maybe 300M foreigners interested in Obama. If only 1 in 100,000 come to write for Wikipedia, then that means 6,000 people are editing the article. Rather than listen to the voice of statistics, you just falsely accuse others who support a neutral Wikipedia, not your political motivations.[[User:Hi Balloon Boy|Hi Balloon Boy]] ([[User talk:Hi Balloon Boy|talk]]) 14:13, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::Dave Dial aka DD2K is disruptive. The suggestions I made are very good; remove some obscure laws that are not part of Obama's bio. In response, Dave Dial is disruptive and falsely accuses others. [[User:Hi Balloon Boy|Hi Balloon Boy]] ([[User talk:Hi Balloon Boy|talk]]) 14:15, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi Balloon Boy, I'd be careful acting like you have a moral high ground when it comes to disruptive behavior in the form of accusatory language. Remember that you have thrown many accusations against other editors in this conversation yourself, including a [http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABarack_Obama&action=historysubmit&diff=456924670&oldid=456924293 false claim of criminal behavior]. --[[User:OuroborosCobra|OuroborosCobra]] ([[User talk:OuroborosCobra|talk]]) 14:34, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
:You have just falsely accused me! I looked at your link The link you provided is[http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABarack_Obama&action=historysubmit&diff=456924670&oldid=456924293] . It accuses nobody! [[User:Hi Balloon Boy|Hi Balloon Boy]] ([[User talk:Hi Balloon Boy|talk]]) 14:47, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
::To quote you from the very first sentence in the link I provided, "You are being criminal in falsely accusing people of vandalism." That is an accusation of criminal behavior. Furthermore, I'd point out that [http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&action=historysubmit&diff=457152539&oldid=457151840 you are now engaged in making misleading or outright false edit summaries while continuing your edit war]. That also hurts your claim of a moral high ground, and may itself violate policy. --[[User:OuroborosCobra|OuroborosCobra]] ([[User talk:OuroborosCobra|talk]]) 14:52, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Note: This issue is being discussed at [[WP:ANI]] at the moment. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 14:36, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

* I do think mentioning these laws is important and contributes to understanding Obama's presidency. Glancing at the pages, Obama actively came out in support of these, signed them, etc. They were a part of his Presidency and should remain. Down the road, I can see them being removed - particularly the Lilly Ledbetter Act - as Obama passes more legislation, but now it seems fine. [[User:ImperfectlyInformed|<span style="font-family: Times">II</span>]] | ([[User_talk:ImperfectlyInformed|t]] - [[Special:Contributions/ImperfectlyInformed|c]]) 14:59, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
*:The Lilly Ledbetter Act was the very first act President Obama signed into law, which makes it highly notable. I'd of thought that was the ''last'' thing to get rid of. It's like the baseball from Hank Aaron's first home run. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 15:03, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
*::It's relatively inconsequential and forgettable. Put it in the article focused on Obama's legislation or presidency, maybe. That baseball is a trinket, and Obama's first act can be looked at as equivalent to distracting trivia. [[User:ImperfectlyInformed|<span style="font-family: Times">II</span>]] | ([[User_talk:ImperfectlyInformed|t]] - [[Special:Contributions/ImperfectlyInformed|c]]) 15:09, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
*:::Inconsequential and forgettable? I'm sure American women will appreciate your opinion. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 15:28, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with II and Scjessey. The act may be something that women like but it is not a major part of Obama's history. Therefore, it doesn't belong in the article. [[User:BAMP|BAMP]] ([[User talk:BAMP|talk]]) 16:29, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
:Hey, that's weird! You started editing shortly after [[User:Hi Balloon Boy|Hi Balloon Boy]] got blocked, and then proceeded to [http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&curid=534366&diff=457169644&oldid=457153214 remove content] just like he did. I'll assume good faith here and just chalk it up to an amazing coincidence. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 16:36, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
::::::I've read this article for years and was amazed at how badly it's written. The common thing I've seen is that if people don't have a leg to stand on, they accuse people of being socks. Very childish. Just explain your editorial ability and suggestions, not attack others. [[User:BAMP|BAMP]] ([[User talk:BAMP|talk]]) 17:43, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
::Shouldn't those signings to moved to '''[[Presidency of Barack Obama]]'''? That seems a much more logical place for them, since they are more significant to his presidential career than to his entire life. Twenty years from now, they could still be notable for his presidency, but not for Obama the individual. <B>—[[User:Torchiest|Torchiest]]</B> <sup>[[User talk:Torchiest|talk]]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-3.5ex;">[[Special:Contributions/Torchiest|edits]]</sub> 17:16, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
:::They are in the article as part of the [[WP:SS|summary style]] process. The content of the sub-articles (like [[Presidency of Barack Obama]]) is summarized here, with particularly notable stuff given a little more prominence. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 17:38, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
::::::There is a strong consensus, Torchiest, II, Balloon Boy, me, that trivial pieces of legislation are not part of his biography but could be moved to the Presidency of BO article. Please support a well written article, not a poorly written one with your pet laws inserted. [[User:BAMP|BAMP]] ([[User talk:BAMP|talk]]) 17:43, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
:::::::Please don't be disingenuous. There's no consensus for removing that content (and one of those people has been blocked). We are just at the early stages of talking about it and hardly anyone has had a chance to weigh in. Also, cut out the "your pet laws" stuff. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 18:01, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

== first african american president ==

This is inaccurate. He is the only one. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/217.39.4.70|217.39.4.70]] ([[User talk:217.39.4.70|talk]]) 14:23, 5 October 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:The only one of something is still the first of something. We call the first child in a family the "firstborn" regardless of whether another has yet even been conceived. --[[User:OuroborosCobra|OuroborosCobra]] ([[User talk:OuroborosCobra|talk]]) 15:39, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
::I agree. If we go make it "only" African American President, then we'll just have to change it when the next is elected, so why make extra work for ourselves. [[User:LogicalFinance33|LogicalFinance33]] ([[User talk:LogicalFinance33|talk]]) 22:01, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
:::I agree with logical and cobra, plus changing it to only african american president makes it seem as if there will not be another.[[User:AcuteAccusation|AcuteAccusation]] ([[User talk:AcuteAccusation|talk]]) 23:50, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Well first of all he is Biracial, even though I know he identifies as African American, the beginning of the article should at least state he is the first president of African American descent or first president of Irish/African descent. [[User:Educatedlady|Educatedlady]] ([[User talk:Educatedlady|talk]]) 06:48, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
:That's already been discussed a trillion times. He's an AA and identifies as AA. Period. [[User:B-Machine|B-Machine]] ([[User talk:B-Machine|talk]]) 00:45, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
::Nor does the article in any way deny that he's biracial, and does discusses his mother and her roots. Given that he wouldn't be the first Irish president, it isn't notable. While in countries other than the US (such as South Africa) being biracial did often put you in a different class than a more "pure" (terrible choice of word here) background, it has not in the US. What has mattered in the US is what you looked like, and looking at all darker of skin than "white" has meant you were "black," or far worse adjectives. --[[User:OuroborosCobra|OuroborosCobra]] ([[User talk:OuroborosCobra|talk]]) 02:15, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

== Section: Israel ==

The following sentence does not make sense and is incorrect, as written: "Before Adm. Mike Mullen, now Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff had visited Israel for over a decade, but in 2010 he made two trips, bringing his total to four.[207]"

The information in the original source that was cited, reads, "Meanwhile, visits by the Israeli and American military brass have jumped dramatically. Since becoming Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in 2007, Adm. Michael Mullen has made four visits to Israel, two of them this year alone. Before Adm. Mullen, no chairman of the joint chiefs had visited Israel for over a decade."

I suggest the text would better read, "Adm. [[Michael Mullen|Mike Mullen]], current Chairman of the [[Joint Chiefs of Staff|Joint Chiefs of Staff]], has made four trips to Israel since 2007, two of them in 2010. Prior to that time no Chairman of the Joint Chiefs had done so for over ten years." Since I cannot make the edit, I would appreciate it if an administrator did so. ([[User talk:Carmaskid|talk]]) 07:35, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

:{{done}} Great suggestion. You don't need to be an administrator to edit this article, by the way. You just need to accumulate a few more edits and you'll be good to go. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 12:39, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

: Thanks for your help. [[User:Carmaskid|Carmaskid]] ([[User talk:Carmaskid|talk]]) 03:57, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

:: In order to reflect the retirment of Adm. Mullen last month, tonight I changed the sentences listed above to, "Before his retirement in September 2011, Adm. Mike Mullen, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, made four trips to Israel during his four-year tenure, two of them in 2010. Prior to 2007 no Chairman of the Joint Chiefs had done so for over ten years,"[[User:Carmaskid|Carmaskid]] ([[User talk:Carmaskid|talk]]) 01:15, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

This is the Obama article, not the Mullen article. Likewise, mention of the death of some old governor (forgot his name) wouldn't be included because that old governor has nothing to do with Obama. [[User:BAMP|BAMP]] ([[User talk:BAMP|talk]]) 14:32, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
:Adm. Mullen visited Israel on behalf of his Commander-in-Chief, and did so at a higher frequency than other Joint Chiefs of Staff have done. That is why it has been included in the article. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 15:06, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

== He's the 43rd President ==

Just thought I'd bring this to your attention, Obama is in fact, not the 44th, but the 43rd President of the United States, as Grover Cleveland held the position twice non-consecutively. [[Special:Contributions/124.184.247.174|124.184.247.174]] ([[User talk:124.184.247.174|talk]]) 11:48, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
:Yes, and that's why [[Grover Cleveland]] is traditionally counted as both the 22nd and 24th President of the United States. Most reliable sources count the Presidents this way, and will probably do so if there's another President who serves nonconsecutive terms. <font color="green">[[User:Szyslak|szyslak]]</font> (<font color="green">[[User talk:Szyslak|t]]</font>) 12:27, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
:: I concur, and this matches the pages for all presidents.[[Special:Contributions/204.65.34.216|204.65.34.216]] ([[User talk:204.65.34.216|talk]]) 22:53, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Best solution is to have a footnote.[[User:BAMP|BAMP]] ([[User talk:BAMP|talk]]) 14:18, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

== Iraq ==

Today I added the sentence, "On October 21, 2011 President Obama announced that all U.S. troops would leave Iraq in time to be, 'home for the holidays.' [200]" but I'm having trouble doing the footnote correctly as it's my first one, and I'm not very good at understanding the directions in the tutorial. Could someone please check the reference and tell me if I need to do anything differently. [[User:Carmaskid|Carmaskid]] ([[User talk:Carmaskid|talk]]) 04:28, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

== How to handle vandalism ==

I have been told that this article is on article probation.

That means you need to discuss changes. If you do not, that may be vandalism. Anyone can revert vandalism. To do so is helping Wikipedia. Please don't vandalize!

Thank you. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Hi Balloon Boy|Hi Balloon Boy]] ([[User talk:Hi Balloon Boy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Hi Balloon Boy|contribs]]) 03:10, 23 October 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Please don't restore your edit again. You would simply risk being [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]]. [[User:SMP0328.|SMP0328.]] ([[User talk:SMP0328.|talk]]) 03:22, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
== Barack Hussein Obama II ? ==

Despite the FAQ Q4, the "II" is incorrect because
* The person in question does not us the "II"
* "II" is never used in any significant way with reference to the person, e.g. of the hundreds of official documents the person has signed in the past three years, how many have included the "II"?
* The birth certificate is not dispositive; that is the one document that the person had the least choice in drafting.
* A great many people change their name over the course of their lives, including many women upon marriage
* The pronunciation guide in this very article omits the "II". If the article is going to include the "II" then it must also tell people how to say it.
* Where it is necessary to distinguish this person from his father, the latter may have the suffix "Sr." without affecting the name of the child.
* The "II" makes wikipedia look silly and out of step with reality. [[User:Rewinn|rewinn]] ([[User talk:Rewinn|talk]]) 03:43, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

:Yes, it certainly does. It suggests that we are talking about someone else but the current President of the USA, because nobody ever uses that name to refer to him. Surely [[WP:Commonname]] applies. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 04:23, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

::I have to agree that ''something'' here looks silly and out of step with reality, but it's neither Wikipedia's consistent application of [[WP:Commonname]] to determine ''article titles'' nor it's application of [[WP:MOSBIO]] to include a biography subject's full name in the opening sentence in order to convey full and accurate information to those who might actually come to an encyclopedia to learn something. [[User:Fat&#38;Happy|Fat&#38;Happy]] ([[User talk:Fat&#38;Happy|talk]]) 04:51, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
:::I agree Almost every biographical article Wikipedia that Iv'e seen uses the full name of the person in the opening sentence and in the vast majority of case no one has complaind. For example, I am not aware of anyone complaining that we use Richard Milhous Nixon despite the fact that the middle name is not usually used. I have also not seen anyone demand that we don't use James Earl "Jimmy" Carter, Jr. since he is best known as Jimmy Carter. I don't see why this is any different.--[[Special:Contributions/199.91.207.3|199.91.207.3]] ([[User talk:199.91.207.3|talk]]) 14:29, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
::::It's true that we shouldn't use the "II" just on the basis of his birth certificate. Does he ever use it today? —[[User:Designate|Designate]] ([[User talk:Designate|talk]]) 03:32, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

== Biased wording needs fixing: State of Union address ==

===current version===
On January 25, 2011, in his [[2011 State of the Union Address]], President Obama focused strongly on the themes of education and innovation, stressing the importance of [[innovation economics]] in working to make the United States more competitive globally. Among other plans and goals, Obama spoke of a enacting a five-year freeze in domestic spending, eliminating tax breaks for oil companies and tax cuts for the wealthiest 2 percent of Americans, banning congressional [[earmark (politics)|earmark]]s, and reducing healthcare costs. Looking to the future, Obama promised that by 2015, the United States would have 1 million electric vehicles on the road and by 2035, clean-energy sources would be providing 80 percent of U.S. electricity.

===Why it is bad====
There have been many, many State of the Union addresses. Most of forgettable.

Focus strongly? That is opinion.

Importance of innovation economics? That is rehashing the speech.

Weathiest Americans is just campaign speech.

===Possible more neutral version===

On January 25, 2011, Obama delivered his yearly State of the Union Address. The speech included ideas on education and to make the United States more competitive globally. He proposed a five-year freeze in domestic spending, eliminating tax breaks for oil companies and increasing the top tax bracket (commonly called "Bush tax cuts" which were extended in a 2010 deal), banning congressional [[earmark (politics)|earmark]]s. Obama promised that by 2015, the United States would have 1 million electric vehicles on the road and by 2035, clean-energy sources would be providing 80 percent of U.S. electricity.
[[User:Hi Balloon Boy|Hi Balloon Boy]] ([[User talk:Hi Balloon Boy|talk]]) 14:34, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
:Quite frankly, I don't even know why that paragraph is in the article. How is one state-of-the-union biographically significant?--[[User:NortyNort|NortyNort]] <small>[[User talk:NortyNort|(Holla)]]</small> 01:52, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
::I have to question that too. It's probably more apt for the Obama Presidency article. [[User:DD2K|Dave Dial]] ([[User talk:DD2K|talk]]) 01:57, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

== Article is poorly written, Israel section is an example ==

This article is poorly written. The trouble is that a few people defend the status quo.

Let's take one section, Israel.

That section poorly defines Obama's biography in relationship to Israel. It mentions strong support and the missile system.

Off the top of my head, if there is an Israel section (does it need to be there?) then the spat with Netanyahu is relevant as well as settlements. Obama's trying to stop Gaza from being a member might be another issue.

Basically, the selection of issues is lop sided. It seems that one Wall Street Journal source is used to justify the content.

There should be consensus to include Israel. After there is consensus, there should be consensus to what to include. Baring any consensus, nothing on Israel should be included, not the status quo. My vote is that some things be included, not a total removal of the section. [[User:BAMP|BAMP]] ([[User talk:BAMP|talk]]) 18:07, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

:All I can see is you deleting and changing huge chunks of the article without first seeking a proper consensus for doing so. I suggest you revert the article to the [http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&oldid=456999711 last stable version] and then maybe people will be willing to talk to you about what you wish to achieve. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 18:11, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

:You need to stop making these changes without consensus. For a featured article that has been praised to be declared 'poorly written' by you seems a bit much. [[User:DD2K|Dave Dial]] ([[User talk:DD2K|talk]]) 18:36, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

:Thanks, but normally articles are based on sources, not "Off the top of my head". [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 22:24, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

== Did Obama hit the King`s dream? ==

Croatian writer Giancarlo Kravar: "If Martin Luther King were alive today I believe that would remind us that unemployed people have a right to condemn the arrogance of Wall Street without demonizing all those who work there.", said U.S. President Barack Obama at the opening of the National Memorial Center dedicated to M. L. King in Washington, according The Guardian. The question for discussion is: Did Obama hit the King`s dream? Perhaps is to early to say so, but I think it`s the best way. For this thesis I have three strong argument: Obama is the first African American President of the United States, he was and still is fighting for peace in the world, and capitalism with a human face. [[Special:Contributions/78.2.49.135|78.2.49.135]] ([[User talk:78.2.49.135|talk]]) 04:00, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
:For the record, where do you believe that quote belongs in the article? [[User:SMP0328.|SMP0328.]] ([[User talk:SMP0328.|talk]]) 04:08, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

== This is nitpicking but... ==

I was under the impression that the correct wording is "As [b]P[/b]resident, Obama administered over..." etc. This article uses "As [b]p[/b]resident, Obama administered over..." etc. Are we sure this is correct? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/72.47.150.42|72.47.150.42]] ([[User talk:72.47.150.42|talk]]) 00:32, 26 October 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:I think it's correct. When addressing Obama as President, as in President Obama, it's capitalized. When preferring to him as 'the president', it's not. Or something like that. [[User:DD2K|Dave Dial]] ([[User talk:DD2K|talk]]) 01:59, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

:: DD2K is correct. The Wikipedia Manual of Style says the following: "In generic use, apply lower case for words such as ''president, king'', and ''emperor''. (De Gaulle was a French president; Louis XVI was a French king; Three prime ministers attended the conference). In parts of a person's title, begin such words with a capital letter (President Obama, not president Obama.)"[[User:Carmaskid|Carmaskid]] ([[User talk:Carmaskid|talk]]) 05:21, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

== Reorganization Suggestion ==

I understand that this is a featured article but there is always room to fine tune any written piece, and sometimes it is helpful to have new eyes look at it. The following is an outline of this article as it currently exists.

Barack Obama
*Early Life and Career
**Chicago community organizer and Harvard Law School
**University of chicago Law School and civil rights attorney
*Legislative career: 1997-2008
**State senator 1997-2004
**US senate campaign
**US senator: 2005-2008
***Legislation
***Committees
**Presidential campaigns
***2008 presidential campaign
***2012 presidential campaign
**Presidency
***First days
***Domestic policy
****Economic policy
****Health care reform
****Gulf of Mexico oil spill
***Foreign policy
****Iraq War
****War in Afghanistan
****Israel
****Lybia
****Osama bin Laden
***2010 midterm election
**Cultural and political image
**Family and personal life
***Religious views
**Notes etc.

I have read this article multiple times, recently. I think that it ends discordantly. All the personal information belongs together. I'm not quite sure about the appropriate placement for the section on cultural and political image, as I need to go back and read that section again. It might make a good transition between the sections on personal and professional life. I left it at the end of the list for the present. IMHO, the following reorginazation would increase the readability of the article. The new outline would be similar to the following:

Barack Obama
*Personal life
**Early life
**Later family life
**Religious views
*Professional life
**Early career
***Chicago community organizer and Harvard Law School
***University of Chicago Law School and civil rights attorney
**Legislative career: 1997-2008
***State senator 1997-2004
***US senate campaign
***US senator: 2005-2008
****Legislation
****Committees
**Presidential campaigns
***2008 presidential campaign
***2012 presidential campaign
**Presidency
***First days
***Domestic arena
****Economic policy
****Health care reform
****Gulf of Mexico oil spill
****2010 midterm election
***Foreign arena
****Iraq War
****War in Afghanistan
****Israel
****Lybia
****Osama bin Laden
***Cultural and political image
**Notes (etc.)

In the Domestic arena section we might consider adding information on the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell and something about Political opposition as, historically, that factor is germane to any president's legacy. If that were added, the 2010 midterm elections should be included there.

I have read the discussion on length and citations and if the article needs to be split, what would be included here under "Presidency?" I'm willing to do the reorganizing if doing so is agreed upon. I could work on it in my sandbox. Also, is there a standard guideline telling what basic sections to include in the biography of a living person? (Guess I'll go look for that after I post this.) Thoughts and comments? [[User:Carmaskid|Carmaskid]] ([[User talk:Carmaskid|talk]]) 07:16, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

:I actually prefer the order as it is at the moment. First it chronicles his career (the most notable aspect) in chronological order, then how he is perceived, and finally his personal life. The current order is logical. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 23:29, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
::It seems to me that all information on his personal life should be grouped together, rather than beginning and ending the article, but I'm willing to go with the flow.[[User:Carmaskid|Carmaskid]] ([[User talk:Carmaskid|talk]]) 02:32, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

== Scandals (Solyndra and Fast and Furious) ==

Why is there no mention of current and ongoing scandals involving the whitehouse, namely Solyndra and Fast and Furious? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/75.162.159.149|75.162.159.149]] ([[User talk:75.162.159.149|talk]]) 21:06, 30 October 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:The obvious answer is because outside the conservative echo chamber, they're not really scandals. Heck, one thing that isn't mentioned is that the head of the committee who is investigating the Fast and Furious project also received the exact same briefing as the Atterny General at about the same time as Holder, but had no issues with it then. (This is all on record.) So in effect he knew as much as Holder about the project, but choose to ignore that fact and continue a partisan attack. So no they don't need to be mentioned in the personal biography of Barack Obama. [[Special:Contributions/74.79.34.29|74.79.34.29]] ([[User talk:74.79.34.29|talk]]) 23:49, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
::I agree. So far there is noting regarding this that would make it relevant to add to a person biography of Obama (Ie cost him the election).--[[Special:Contributions/70.24.211.105|70.24.211.105]] ([[User talk:70.24.211.105|talk]]) 22:14, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
:::It's not wikipedia's purpose to try to influence candidates winning or losing elections. Instead, it is wikipedia's purpose to present readers with reliably sourced, notable information. Therefore, I propose that the following be added to the article:

:::In [[Operation Fast and Furious]], the Obama administration ordered gun storeowners to illegally sell thousands of guns to criminals.<ref>[http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2011/09/28/fast-and-furious-just-might-be-president-obamas-watergate/ "Fast And Furious" Just Might Be President Obama's Watergate], Forbes, September 28, 2011</ref>

:::The Obama administration gave $535 million to [[Solyndra]], claiming that it would create 4,000 new jobs. However, instead of creating those 4,000 new jobs, the company went bankrupt. It was later revealed that the company's shareholders and executives had made substantial donations to Obama's campaign, and that the company had also spent a large sum of money on lobbying.<ref>[http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/01/bankrupt-solar-company-with-fed-backing-has-cozy-ties-to-obama-admin/ Bankrupt solar company with fed backing has cozy ties to Obama admin], The Daily Caller, September 1, 2011</ref>

:::[[Special:Contributions/173.75.156.141|173.75.156.141]] ([[User talk:173.75.156.141|talk]]) 19:50, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

::::As this is a biographical article about Obama, not an article about the Obama administration (meaning, the entire executive branch of the US government during the Obama administration), there would have to be some sourcing that this is biographically relevant and significant enough to include. Every US President has one or more scandals running concurrently (or controversies, or attacks and complaints by the political opposition, whatever you would call it), some lasting a day or a week, but very few about which you could say that it's a part of their life story. If you were to write a 500-page book about Obama five or ten or fifty years from now, how many paragraphs would be devoted to his involvement in Solyndra or Fast and Furious? Probably zero to three, unless it turned out to become his political undoing, something that seems very unlikely and that we won't know for some time yet. Now consider that this bio is about 10-20 pages long, not 500, so you have very little room. If that went in, something else would have to come out. Moreover, it would have to be written in a neutral tone, not in the voice of the opposition's accusation by inference or the political pundits' coverage of the same. If you were to pose a similar question a few months ago there were probably a few other scandals then that are largely forgotten. So the short answer is there just isn't enough room for minor things, and no sourcing that this is anything but an ephemeral political grievance. - [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 23:21, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

:::::Exactaly, we should wait to see if anything significant happens to him first due to these events. Examples can range from Obama being impeached over this, he resignes, he loses the next election and there is '''compelling evidence''' that these events were a '''major factor''' in the defeat. So far nothing of this nature has occurred.--[[Special:Contributions/70.24.209.180|70.24.209.180]] ([[User talk:70.24.209.180|talk]]) 01:20, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

== Clarification ==

Hi everyone. I posted this on [[User:Dr.K.|Dr.K.'s]] talk page, but he/she refused to just offer this there and insisted I bring here so the experts could weight in. Anyway, I'm just curious, I might have missed something but why did he/she [http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&diff=next&oldid=458912580 remove] that from this article, I personally didn't like the section title but the section itself seemed well sourced with reliable sources. Maybe you can offer up some clarification. Thanks. <b style="font-family:sans-serif;text-shadow:2px 2px 2px #9eceee;color:#fd0;">[[User:CR90|<font color="#00285D">CRRays</font>]][[User talk:CR90|<font color="#00285D">Head90</font>]] | <sup>[[Special:Contributions/CRRaysHead90|<font color="#00285d">We Believe!</font>]]</sup></b> 03:12, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
:It's a Grundle2600 sock, who's banned from editing. Previous sock here [http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&diff=457220733&oldid=457188354]. '''<font face="Arial">[[User:Acroterion|<font color="black">Acroterion</font>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<font color="gray">(talk)</font>]]</small></font>''' 03:18, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

:(e/c) Dr.K. can explain his rationale for removing the section, but I suspect it is similar to the reason that I've blocked the editor who posted it. Because this is a returning POV warrior who has been creating new accounts, getting them autoconfirmed, and then adding this same ridiculous attack section with the same ridiculous edit summary and the same ridiculous section title. I don't understand how anyone could think that section is appropriate. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 03:20, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

::Thank you Floquenbeam and Acroterion. You answered in the usual expert and competent way that I have come to expect from experts. I cannot add anything more. I am also glad that after a brief edit-war on my talk User:CR90 was finally persuaded to come and ask the experts at this article talk and share the discussion with the maximum number of editors for the greater benefit of the encyclopaedia, instead of confining the conversation to my talk with its limited audience. As for my reasons for reverting the sock and their edits, let's just say I have developed a feel for it. Although I have to admit that this time was a bit more obvious than other times. [[User:Dr.K.|Dr.K.]]&nbsp;<small><sup style="position:relative">[[User talk:Dr.K.|λogos]]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">[[Special:Contributions/Dr.K.|πraxis]]</span></sup></small> 03:28, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
::I can't justify the past actions of the user, and looking at the removed passage, some of is is not neutral, however I am seeing a lot of referenced information. Surely some of that can be salvaged?--[[User:Gordonrox24|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36B">Gordonrox24</span>]]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Gordonrox24|<sup><span style="font-family:Arial;color:red">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 03:30, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
:::Usually sock edits no matter how good are reverted mercilessly. But if you think you can salvage something please talk to the experts on this talk. This was my original intent anyway. To bring this issue here to be handled in the most efficient and expert manner. With this I bid everyone goodbye. [[User:Dr.K.|Dr.K.]]&nbsp;<small><sup style="position:relative">[[User talk:Dr.K.|λogos]]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">[[Special:Contributions/Dr.K.|πraxis]]</span></sup></small> 03:35, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

:::There is nothing to salvage. It is an idiot laundry list of fringe criticisms that Grundle2600 has been trying to paste into various Obama-related article for the past year. Yes, ''year''. This is a persistent, vile, community-banned little troll. Just being sourced is never a sole criteria for adding material to an article, this particular passage has been discussed to death at [[Talk:Presidency of Barack Obama]], all i nthe archives section there. [[User:Tarc|Tarc]] ([[User talk:Tarc|talk]]) 03:38, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

::::Having already said my goodbyes it is rather unusual for me to return so quickly. But I briefly came back to thank Tarc for their most illuminating comments. [[User:Dr.K.|Dr.K.]]&nbsp;<small><sup style="position:relative">[[User talk:Dr.K.|λogos]]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">[[Special:Contributions/Dr.K.|πraxis]]</span></sup></small> 03:42, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
===How are these things "fringe criticisms"?===
[redacted]

:Too much. If you wish to propose the addition of an individual item here, feel free to do so, with sources, and reasons why it is significant enough to add. Trying to add a long list of criticisms all at once is simply not appropriate. In fact, I see little value at all in adding any criticism. See [[Noam Chomsky]] for an article with a good amount of criticism. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 06:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

== Barack Obama is not African-American ==

Just wanted to point out that Obama isn't African-American. African-American refers to the people whose descendants were traded in the slave trade, mostly in West Africa. His mother is white and born in the states. His father is black and was born in Kenya. He was born in Hawaii. Obama has no claims to african-american heritage. Rather, he is Kenyan-American. He is black, but not african-american. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.17.184.254|70.17.184.254]] ([[User talk:70.17.184.254|talk]]) 03:57, 6 November 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Please look at [[Talk:Barack Obama#first african american president]] above. Surely we're not going to label people here according to perceived skin colour. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 04:02, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

::I agree it is not our job to go against virtually all reliable sources have said and that is that he is African-American. Also do you have any reliable sources that only descendants of the slave trade are allowed be called African-American because if not your position would be considered original research and likely not be given much consideration especially since reliable sources have called him African-American.--[[Special:Contributions/70.24.209.180|70.24.209.180]] ([[User talk:70.24.209.180|talk]]) 05:32, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
:::You do realize that [[Kenya]] is an African country and that all immigrants to the USA from Kenya would indeed still be called African-American and their children would still be African-American even if half European-American? [[User:Alatari|Alatari]] ([[User talk:Alatari|talk]]) 08:31, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
:Also see Q2 on [[Talk:Barack Obama/FAQ|Barack Obama/FAQ]].--[[User:JayJasper|JayJasper]] ([[User talk:JayJasper|talk]]) 05:42, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Revision as of 17:35, 8 November 2011

The article on President Obama is uncommonly comprehensive but equally uncommonly omits references or comments about military service. Military service may be overrated as either a prerequisite or benefit for political involvement in these united states, but is usually included in any biography.

Retrieved from "https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk:Barack_Obama&oldid=459658270"