Talk:Doric dialect (Scotland)

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Which dialect to use for this article?

ααFy is iis airtin nae in Doric?/Why is this article not in Doric

Doric:

Am ah ii ainly een fa hinks aat iis page maun be scrievit in ii leid it's spikkin aboot? It nae bein in ii doric ainly maks fowk fa cain ii leid sty oan ii eeswal wye o hinkin, fit is aat its nae a leid avaa.

aasae ah wid likk tae pynt oot aat ii doric eesit here isnae affae braid. Ither fowk maun cain fit like wir leid is. Fan Ah'm syin iis ah maistlit spikkin aboot ii wee poyim ii airtin haes. It eeses 'hoo' fit is a waird fae ii sooth insteid o 'foo', an cain thon's foo wi spikk?

Aye an fit div yi nae hae Wikipedia in Doric fir? -- Anonymous

Wi div hae Wikipedia in Doric. -- Derek Ross | Talk 18:54, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. That's a Lowland Scots wikipedia, but there's scanty Doric (north east) on it. --MacRusgail 15:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's mostly a matter of pronunciation. I was born and bred in the North east so if I were to read it out loud to you, you would realise that it was Doric. But it's maybe not quite so obvious when you are reading it yourself. Paticularly since some of it has been written by folk that don't really know Scots of any kind that well. -- Derek Ross | Talk 16:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

English Translation:

Am I the only one thinking this article should be expressed in the language which it describes? It not being in Doric simply makes speakers of the language continue the prodominant mode of thought, which is that it's not a language at all.

also I would like to point out that the Doric used here is not very pure. Other people must know what our language is like. In making the point I am mostly considering the poem used in this article. It uses 'hoo' which is the word in southern Scotland as opposed to 'foo', after all that's 'foo' we speak?

Oh, and why isn't wikipedia available in Doric? -- Anonymous

Haud on, min. In the English Wikipedia, aahin is daen in English. We dinna spik aboot Hindustani in Hindustani an we dinna spik aboot Doric in Doric itherwise the readers widna be able tae work oot fit's fit. Gin ye want tae read aboot Doric in Doric, ye maun read the Scots Wikipedia far aahin is written in Scots an we're nae fashed aboot fit kind o Scots, Doric or Lallans. Sae gang til http://sco.wikipedia.org/ afore ye stairt showin yersel up, compleenin aboot hings fan there's nae need. An dinna blame us for the poem. It wis written by a chiel frae Alford. If they dinna spik Doric there, then far div they ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 18:48, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Doric Scottish

Shouldn't this article be moved to "Doric Scottish"? The Doric dialect is by default a Greek one, hence I don't see why this article should monopolise a loan word. Miskin 01:44, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Plus, Britannica uses "Doric dialect" to refer to the Greek one [2]. Let alone that a Doric dialect survives to the present day (see Tsakonian language. Any good arguments before requesting a move? Miskin 01:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we don't have to ape Britannica in all our topics. A case could certainly be made for disambiguating between the Greek dialect and the Scottish one but there is no reason why either dialect should monopolise a word, loan or otherwise. In my experience, "Doric" is much more commonly used to refer to the Scottish dialect than to the Greek one. However, I accept that, to a professor of Ancient Greek, the opposite is likely to prove true (unless he is William Lorimer of course). Oh, and aren't good arguments ones that we favour, while bad arguments are ones that our opponents favour ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:29, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's not about aping something, it's about knowing what the most common term is. You can't just invent a term and expect wikipedia to follow it. "Doric" is definitely not more commonly used to refer to Scottish and there are many ways to prove this. Anyway I'm not suggesting that "Doric Greek" should move to 'Doric dialect'. I'm suggesting that Doric Greek should stay as it is, Doric dialect should be renamed to Doric Scottish, and Doric dielect would be a disambiguation page between the two (as in the case of Demotic). Miskin 16:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. Well, "Doric" may well be more commonly used to refer to the Greek dialect but even so "Doric dialect", "The Doric" or just plain "Doric" are still the most common terms used to describe this particular dialect of Scots. "Doric Scottish" appears to be a term that you have invented and, as you point out, you can't just invent a term and expect Wikipedia to follow it. So if we are to move the article away from the title most commonly used to describe it just because that term is even more commonly used to describe something else (which does have a common alternative title), it could be argued that we will create a worse problem than the ambiguous titling problem that we are trying to solve.

Of course disambiguation pages are not the only way to solve that problem. In this case, I would suggest that the simplest way to redirect people who really are looking for the article on the Doric dialect of Greek whould be to add a disamb link at the top of this article, in the same way as has been done for articles such as Jacobitism. -- Derek Ross | Talk 17:13, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

'Doric Scottish' was just an example, I don't know what the language is called. Since "Doric dialect" is a dialect of some language X, then by default it becomes "Doric <X>". Alternatively you should use 'Doric (Scottish)' or 'Doric dialect (Scottish)', this is how disambiguation is made. It doesn't matter what name you'll choose, as long as 'Doric dialect' becomes a disambiguation page between Scottish and Greek. It's just ridiculous to have 'Doric dialect' redirect by default to Scottish, since the authentic Doric Greek dialect is blatantly of much greater importance by all means. Miskin 17:30, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I've been contributing to Wikipedia more or less every day since late 2001, so I think that I've just about got the hang of disambiguation by now, <grin>. However as I said, dismabiguation pages are not the only method for solving the problem nor even the best in all cases. -- Derek Ross | Talk 18:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's nae "Scottish", it's "Scots". — Anonymous, 14th August 2006

Aye, gin we're spikkin Scots but we're nae. This is the English Wikipedia, sae we'r spikkin English. Oniewey it's "Scotland" noo. I thocht it wis better nor "Scots" an "Scottish". -- Derek Ross | Talk 20:14, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Wh"

Can I ask why someone keeps on changing the "f" spellings to "wh"? "Fit like", not "whit like" is the Doric form. Respelling into some kind of "standard Scots" is is like trying to write it all in RP. --MacRusgail 15:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But surely it's even worse to respell Doric as if it's some variant of "standard English". Doric speakers know that the "wh" spelling is pronounced "f" in Doric and that "ui" is pronounced "ee". They don't need to have Doric spelled using phonetic English "f"s and "ee"s in order to know how to pronounce it and the article points out how to pronounce "wh" and "ui" the Doric way for those who aren't Doric speakers. -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:22, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As a child I was always confused by the use by Oor Wullie and the Broons of "wh" rather than "f". People don't talk like that I thought. It would be OK writing "wh" and pronouncing "f" but the "wh" sound exists in Doric I think. Presumably fishermen talk about "whales". Shephia (talk) 14:53, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps. Language rules are rarely without exception. I've never heard fisherfolk talking about whales so I can't be sure whether they pronounce it "whale" or "fale". However I would note that the fisher town of "Whitehills" is pronounced "Fitehills" in Doric even though I have never seen it spelled that way. -- Derek Ross | Talk 22:26, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why call Scots Doric?

Why do we refer to Scots as "Doric" at all? The article suggests an analogy is being made to the contrast between the rural Scots and the urban English or, perhaps, Edinburgh dialects. I have always taken it to be a rather precious way of pointing out the increased prevalence of "a" sounds in some forms of Scots, and relating that to the use of alpha in Doric Greek where Attic Greek might have eta or epsilon. NRPanikker 20:16, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well whatever the deeper reason might be, Scots speakers in the North East of Scotland will tell you that they are speaking Doric, if you ask what it's called. So at base we call it that because they call it that. Those in other parts of Scotland are more likely to say that they speak Scots (or perhaps Lallans, Orcadian, etc.) Further than that, the article just gives the conventional historical explanation for the use of "Doric" as the name. You're welcome to add other explanations as long as you can find some literature that discusses them so that you can cite it. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dinna fash yersel', Meester Ross. I've just noticed that another user made the same point three years ago. NRPanikker 15:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

<Grin>, I winna. It taks a fair bit tae rile me up. Cheers. -- Derek Ross | Talk 23:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it has to do with the fact that Doric Greek was also a Highland language in origin. The Dorians lived in the mountains before they came to conquer much of mainland Greece, Crete and Sicily. They weren't really restricted in Laconia as the article implies. Miskin 19:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Could be. -- Derek Ross | Talk 23:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

An interesting discussion. The OED lists the earliest 'Scottish' reference to Doric as late as 1870 - E. B. Ramsay Reminisc. Sc. Life v. 127 ‘My Lord’, commenced John, in his purest Doric..‘I wad hae thocht naething o't’. The word was however in use long before then as a generic term for all things 'rustic' so its hard to say that this 1870 reference was intended to mean anything specific to Scotland. Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.106.104 (talk) 16:55, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"According to another source, 18th century Scots writers like Allan Ramsay justified their use of Scots (instead of English) by comparing it to the use of Ancient Greek Doric by Theocritus" Hmm. Given however that there is no earlier known reference than 1870 to 'Doric' in a Scottish context such a claim seems certainly spurious. The most obvious explanation is that educated people (i.e. those educated in the Latin and Greek classics) simply used 'Doric' as an adjective, thus a 'Doric language' to them simply meant a 'rustic dialect'. Later writers, without a classical education, mistakenly wrote the word 'Doric' as if it were a proper noun, falsely assuming, or implying, that it was actually the historic name of a Scottish dialect. Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.97.27 (talk) 15:20, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The 1870 ref is the earliest referring to the language as Doric (also per refs in DSL); Ramsay is comparing the language to Theocritus's usage of Doric. Not the same thing at all. If you have no source for your imaginings (however obvious you believe them to be) they are, yet again, OR. Talk pages are not for speculative discussion. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:16, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the point I should have emphasised Mutt is that the statement about Ramsay appears to have been written in 2006. There is no direct evidence quoted to show that Ramsay ever made such a comparison as stated (and one might reasonably suspect that there may not actually be any such evidence). The earliest documented evidence of the use of 'Doric' in relation to Scotland therefore remains 1870 until or unless someone can find an earlier primary ref. Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.6.151 (talk) 10:02, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No need to empahsise the point, I got it, it is perfectly clear and characteristically wrong-headed. Kay's book says this, whether you happen to believe it or not - it is a reliable source, your musings are not, so you laying out your ponderings is general discussion of the topic, does nothing to improve the article and so has no place on a talk page: WP:NOTFORUM as you have been told time and again. What's more, as I said, the passage by Kay does not talk about the term Doric actually being applied to the tongue by Ramsay etc. (whether it was or not in that period). The 1870 ref is not "The earliest documented evidence of the use of 'Doric' in relation to Scotland" but specifically that of it's use as a term for the vernacular tongue. Quite a different thing. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:50, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also see: The Poems of Allan Ramsay, The Scots Language Centre and Aberdeen University. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:53, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fair comment. Nevertheless the earliest example of the use of the word Doric as the actual name of the dialect (rather than simply as a capitalised adjective) which I have been able to find is by Hugh MacDiermid who first wrote of ‘the Doric’ in 1925. Does anyone know of an earlier example? If not... Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.111.75 (talk) 10:06, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what the difficulty is here:

DSL - SNDS2 DORIC, n., adj. Add variant Dorick I. n. 1. The Scots language, esp. when regarded as a country or working-class dialect. *Sc. 1870 E. B. Ramsay Reminiscences 127: "My Lord," commenced John in his purest Doric, "I wad hae thocht naething o’t."

Any other interpretation of the quote is WP:OR in contradiction of a reliable source. Mutt Lunker (talk) 13:01, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nevertheless my point remains: one cannot tell from the context whether Ramsay was using the term 'purest Doric' as the proper name of the dialect, or just using it in a general sense as a sarcastic way of emphasising that the speaker was a 'rustic'. The earliest recorded unambiguous useage of 'Doric' as the actual name of (a?) Scottish dialect therefore remains 1925 (unless anyone knows of an earlier unambiguous quote). Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.12.44 (talk) 14:33, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Only if you know better than the DSL which is unequivocal in the entry quoted above (Doric = "The Scots language", followed by the citation of Ramsay as an illustration of this usage), so a) in Wikipedia terms of WP:RS v. your WP:OR you don't know better b) you don't know better. I'm sorry that you are having such a struggle comprehending a simple dictionary entry. Mutt Lunker (talk) 15:42, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth here's an early mention of 'Doric' used in Scotland in the general sense of simply meaning 'rustic':

As late as 1845 the minister of Kelso wrote that his parishioners “speak the Scottish tongue in the most Doric of its forms; nor does there appear any prospect of a speedy improvement in this particular” (New Statistical Account, County of Roxburgh, p. 323). Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.42.228.89 (talk) 14:13, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

External Links

The BBC Radio 4 Listen Again page only links to the most recent programme, which is not relevant to the current article.

BBC Radio 4's programme 'Open Country' (Saturday 15 April 2006) interviewed Jean Thompson and Isobel Balfour from the Doric-Speaking Club in Alford. Use the 'Listen Again' feature to hear the programme up to one week after transmission.

--Zach Beauvais 10:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nae Gweed ataa

Weel ah hink aat es pag' shid be ca'n wir sae ca'd "dialect" ae leid. Hit es nae gweed enouch fur ii scottis folk. Sae gies wir leid baik ye guffy spikkin hooers.

Awa ye gang, ye foul-mou'd gype. It's a dialect o Scots, nae a dialect o English. Hae a keek at Scots language gin ye want oor airticle on the leid. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Are ye sure far it comes fae?

a Ken am aboot ti write in english, but ma spoken doric is way better than ma written...

I was always led to believe that doric was germanic, due to the gutteral tones... could be way wrong! I agree that it's a dialect, it's not scots. We are as individuals, scottish or Scots (plural). We speak with a scottish accent and an odd dialect called "Doric".

Bein born and bred N. E. Scotland, it annoys me that many Aberdonian deny this part of their heritage as it sounds "common" or "country", well that should be "yokel" for a kick off! I've learned this from personal experience and frankly, am disappointed. I think you should be proud of your heritage, this is the only part of the world that speaks this particular type of doric and we should try our hardest to maintain it!

So, dis onybody think am richt? Stuartfield should stay Crichie, New Pitsligo should stay Kiack..., yer semmet should ging aneath yer sark, which hopefully was pressed afore ye wint oot o the hoose! It should nae maeter far ye bide of far yer fae, its a' the same!

Nae shair faur ye'r comin fae - Scots (wi aa its dialecks) is Germanic. English is Germanic, Norrowegian, Dutch, Laich Saxon is aa Germanic. (A'm nae fae the NE, sae sairry gin ma Doric's a tait orra) - Tulloch GOrum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.136.110 (talk) 12:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Futrets!

Correct me if I'm wrong, 'cause I'm mere half Scot and living in England so didn't want to jump in making corrections before checking, but the article says that 'futret' is wrongly applied to ferrets when it actually means weasel. I was under the impression that it meant anything of that type: weasels, stoats, ferrets, and all manner of similar critters... It's only a tiny point, I know, but it is a particularly wonderful word in a wonderful dialect. :o) - Shrivenzale 18:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Being from the North East I would agree with the above, and seeing as how theyre all Mustelids anyway its probably applied to them all The Taste of Monkeys 11:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The origin of the term Doric is...rough/early Greek..ie Doric, its obvious

Has no-one here read the deeply incitefull and educated books by L A Waddell, an expert in ancient History who states that the original Indo European languages of Britain (Celtic and English, ie British) were derived directly from Phoenician(ie Mycenean/Trojan/Greek) vikings and traders who had been present in these islands as far back as 3000BC. Partolon(St Bartholomew) a Doric coloniser arrived in 400BC amongst many other rough Greek(Doric) colonisers. Geoffrey of Monthmouth translated old British texts which stated that British was descended from "rough Greek", which was clearly a latin translation of Doric.

Lets try and look deeper into history than the shortsighted and frankly simplisitic version of history of these isles peddalled by the Victorians and Georgians which is just out of date.92.0.226.171 (talk) 18:29, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Laurence Waddell was an expert on Tibet. His expertise on comparative linguistics was not quite so extensive. His theory may just have looked plausible during the 1920s but we've learned a lot since then. While there's no doubt that the Phoenician trade network spread as far as the British Isles, the linguistic connections that he posits are clearly Edwardian nonsense. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:56, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Select vocabulary

Moved from article to talk {{Unreferenced section|date=November 2009}}

The most distinctive and common Doric phrase is Ay ay, fit like? (Ay Ay, whit like? - ay is sometimes spelt aye^[1] The SND also states: "The spelling of this and the preceding word in Sc. is irregular, but ay = yes, and aye = always, seem to predominate. Both words in Sc. are markedly diphthongal but not identical in pronunciation. N.E.D. and Un. Eng. Dict. prefer ay = always, and aye = yes, the first of which rhymes with the ay series of Eng. words like say, day, etc., while the second does not. The Concise Eng. Dict. spells ay = yes, and aye = ever, always." ^[2]) ("Hello, how are you?").

A'm awfu sair needin the lavvy - (awfu pronounced 'affa') I am bursting for the toilet
A'm fair dancin mad - I am in a rage.
A'm fair forfochten - I am very tired.
ay is't - reply to the greeting fine mornin
ay fairly or ay michty ay - yes indeed
aye peckin or peckin awa - Literally "Always pecking." The reply to Fou's yer doos?
the Broch - Fraserburgh also Burghead near Elgin.
caumie doun! - Calm down!
Causey Mounth - the road over the "Mounth" or Grampians
come awa ben the hoose for a fly an a piece - Welcome. Come in and I'll make you a cup of tea and something to eat.
Claik - the Doric dialect of Buchan fishing villages
dinna be coorse or A'll skelp yer dowp - Don't be naughty or I will smack your bottom. dock can also be used instead of dowp.
fa? (wha?) fit? (whit?) fit wey? (whit wey?) faur? (whaur?) fan? (whan) - "who? what? what way? why? where? when?"
far aboots? (Whaur aboots?) - Whereabouts? (Aberdeen is nicknamed "Furry Boots City" from a humorous spelling of far aboots - furry boots.)
far div ye bide? (Whaur div ye bide?) - "Where do you live?"
fit? (Whit) - "What?"
fit like? (Whit like) - A greeting, essentially, "How are you doing?", to which the response is Aye... tyauvin on. (Aye tawin on) "Fine, thanks" or "juist tyauvin awa
fit ye deein? (Whit ye daein?) - "What are you doing?"
fit's adee? (Whit's adae?) - "What's wrong?"
foggy bummer - Bumblebee
fool skittery bugger - dirty loose-bowelled animal. Derogatory expression when farm-animals refuse to do as instructed. Suitable for someone else's dog.
for a filie (for a whilie) - for a long time
fou lang (hou lang) - how long
fou's yer dous? (Hou's yer dous?) - literally "how are your pigeons?", now used as "how are you?" A stock phrase, not so often used in speech as to send up Doric.
futrat (Whitrat) - Weasel or other Mustelid, but commonly used for ferret now.
gealt - cold
gie's a bosie! - "Give me a hug!"
gulsochs - sweets, cream cakes, doughnuts, caramels etc.
knapdarloch - dung hanging in knots in wool round a sheep's bottom
louns an quines (louns an queans) - Lads and lassies, boys and girls. (NB loun or loon has no derogatory connotation in Doric)
min - Man, as in Ay ay, min.
puir auld craitur - frail old man (or woman) (puir is pronounced 'peer')

An Aberdonian has told me of this locally prized example. A shoeshop assistant asks a customer: "Fit fit fits fit fit (which fit fits which foot)?". Wikiain (talk) 00:51, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ The SND entry for ay has 16 citations using ay and two using aye.DSL.ac.uk
^ [1]

Stupid rename

Known by all and sundry as Doric, but moved to more pretentious moniker. How many folk in the north east say that they speak "Mid Northern Scots"? Doric was more widely spread but it is now almost universal as a self-designation.--MacRusgail (talk) 21:22, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I may be wrong but the move appeared to be made unilaterally, without discussion. Unless I'm missing something, Doric is the far more widespread term for the tongue. How many people come to this article via the re-direct for Doric versus via its current handle? Must be 100:1 at least. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. It was a daft move. -- Derek Ross | Talk 16:59, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are we for moving back to Doric then? Anyone got any reason to favour the current handle? Mutt Lunker (talk) 18:25, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Move it back, I'd say. I think when something has a common name in widespread use and a formal name that's only used in academic contexts, Wikipedia generally favours the common name. Policy guideline WP:UCN seems to cover this. --Deskford (talk) 00:09, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Doric may well be an almost universal as a self-designation used by speakers of Mid Northern Scots but that begs the question of how many people who speak, for example, Insular Scots, North Northern Scots or South West Central Scots use such pretentious monikers? Should those article handles also be changed? And if so, to what? Since Doric and Doric dialect are redirects, are people any more likely going to type in Doric dialect (Scotland) as they are Mid Northern Scots or Northeast Scots when trying to access this article? Will there be any gain in wiki-usability by changing the name? The scholarly title (used in reliable sources?) does sit better with the navigation table to the right, and, (obscure?[3][4][5][6]) scholarly titles are hardly out-of-place in an encyclopedia. Nogger (talk) 19:16, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Simply, WP:COMMONNAME. These other dialects not having alternative common names to their scholarly designation is no reason to to impose the scholarly term on the article for a dialect which unquestionably does have a much more widespread common name. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:54, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: uncontested move. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 14:26, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mid Northern Scots → Doric dialect (Scotland) — Per discussion above, this would return the title to the common usage term rather than otherwise more obscure scholarly designation. Change to the current title was made unilaterally, without discussion on 27th March 2010.--Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:39, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Material duplicated in Dorians

Some of this material appeared paragraph for paragraph in Dorians. It certainly does not belong there as the Scots had not a thing to do with the Greeks. I brought it to here only to find it was a duplicate. So, if you are looking for it here after having been there you will find it in the first subsection.

I dare say this article needs a great deal of work. The work I see is in the introductory and transitional sentences. One is not really sure of what is going on. I did not check the detail but if valid I applaud detail. You just have to make it all make sense in a connected way.Dave (talk) 02:27, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Greek

The rambling section about Greek really isn't credible. I would suggest the article would be improved if it stayed away from folk etymology. 89.242.187.6 (talk) 21:25, 10 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Links to Scottish Gaelic

The sentence "Crichie, the Doric name for Stuartfield is derived from the Gaelic word creachann (summit of a rock)." is the sort of nonsense put about by people who want to assert Gaelic at the expense of the other languages which were common in Scotland including Pictish, Anglic and Old Norse - and the sort of thing which brings Wikipedia into disrepute.

"Crichie" is Pictish and means "The boundary burn". There is another "Creichie" nearby - at Fyvie - and many other places with a "crich" or "creich" element.

Despite being Pictish, Dwelly has "Crich" as a form of "crioch" meaning "boundary, frontier, march, border....." The "-ie" is a contraction of "igh", also recognised by Dwelly, meaning "Burn, river course" Freuchie (talk) 12:33, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why the anti-Gaelic commentary, if there is an error surely it is an innocent one? If anything the article is misleading by suggesting the influence of Gaelic is confined to a few place-names, when there is considerable room for insertion of information about its apparent influence on vocab, phonology and grammar. Gaelic was spoken in the north-east of Scotland from the early Middle Ages until the 1980s, and although English/Scots has also been spoken there since the twelfth or thirteenth century (Old Norse was never spoken in the north-east) this is still centuries after the disappearance of Pictish, so a name like that must come from Gaelic. The word crich is Gaelic for 'land' or 'boundary', common in place-names throughout Scotland; Pictish and Gaelic though were very similar languages, perhaps mutually comprehensible, and Pictish would have had a cognate, but there is no way to tell in any instance like this if a name like that is ultimately Pictish or was coined for the first time by Gaelic speakers, say between c. 900 and c.1500. Having said that, I have no idea about this creachann etymology here, the claim isn't sourced. If it relies on scholarly work the suggestion will have been formulated based on early forms of the name. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:57, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 21 June 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Mdaniels5757 (talk) 20:50, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Doric dialect (Scotland) → Doric Scots – À la Insular Scots, Central Scots, etc. Soumya-8974 ^talk _contribs ^subpages 17:13, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Contrary to these other dialects that only have a geographically-denoted academic term, this one has a commonly used vernacular name, Doric; never Doric Scots. The analagous geographical designation would be Mid Northern Scots or Northeast Scots but these do not have the same level of currency. What's more and per the artcile Doric was formerly, and sometimes still is, a synonym for Scots as a whole. It was coined as a comparison with the Greek dialect, so Doric dialect to denote that, with the disambiguator (Scotland). Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:08, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The current title is already a compromise. The original title for the article was Doric dialect. It was moved to its current title to avoid conflict with the older and more widely know Doric dialect of ancient Greece. No need to move it again. -- Derek Ross | Talk 02:28, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Doric is a dialect of the Scots language, not a language in its own. I can confirm this as I was born and raised in Aberdeen to a family originating from Aberdeenshire LeahG22 (talk) 16:32, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] The SND entry for ay has 16 citations using ay and two using aye.DSL.ac.uk

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