Talk:2024 United States presidential election

RfC: Projected Electoral Votes infobox

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is clear consensus to only include a state's projected electoral votes in the infobox once all major media networks unanimously make a projection. C F A 💬 21:15, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

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There are two questions:

1. When should we add a state’s projected electoral votes to the infobox on Election Night?
   1. When a majority of major media networks make a projection.
   2. When all major media networks unanimously make a projection.
   3. When one major media makes a projection.
   4. Other?
2. Which major media source(s) should we use for the projected electoral vote tally?

Prcc27 (talk) 06:19, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

1. Option 2: A state’s electoral votes should only be added to the infobox based on unanimously projected Electoral Votes. Unanimous projections for the infobox tally is the compromise we more or less settled on in 2020. But for the map, I think we should use light red/light blue shades for states where a majority, but not all major media sources have made a projection; and save the darker shades for when the major outlets unanimously agree. Some users got impatient waiting several days for all news outlets to call Georgia. I feel like if we would have shaded GA light blue (like this), users would have been more patient waiting to add Georgia’s electoral college votes to the infobox. Per WP:NOTNEWS, there is no rush to add a state’s EVs to the infobox tally, if the state still has not been called by all major networks. Adding a state to the infobox based on only 1 or 2 media projections would be WP:UNDUE and problematic, especially in light of the AP/FOX Arizona projection controversy.

2. ABC, AP, CBS, CNN, and NBC are the sources we should use. These media organizations, (along with FOX, which we already agreed not to use), are usually considered the “major networks” when it comes to election projections (see National Election Pool and AP VoteCast). Last election, we used over a dozen news organizations, which made things very confusing and hard to keep track of. Narrowing the list of sources we use down to just five major sources will make editing drastically easier/simple, and would give due weight to the most prominent outlets and avoid giving undue weight to organizations that are less prestigious. Prcc27 (talk) 06:23, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Concur All of this looks good to me. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:37, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

@Prcc27 Concur. You make a good case for Option 2. Vsst (talk) 07:52, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 Best to be certain. GoodDay (talk) 13:55, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 Since what Prcc27 has described. However, we should make sure to state that on the top of the talk page. Qutlooker (talk) 20:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. We should probably start an FAQ. I’m surprised we still do not have one. Prcc27 (talk) 20:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 Concur with Prcc27, including the use of a lighter color to indicate that the majority of sources have called a state. LK (talk) 14:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 per Prcc27, literally agree with everything there. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 18:53, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Something like option 1 but this whole RFC is unnecessary and misguided. Existing Wikipedia policy is sufficient for content disputes. At this time, there is no content dispute to decide. WP:UNDUE says we reflect the prominence of views in reliable sources. If a few reliable sources disagree with a broad consensus, we should show the broad consensus and use a footnote. We need to stop treating this page like it’s special and that normal Wikipedia policy for content disputes don’t apply. —JFHutson (talk) 19:57, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  The RfC is absolutely necessary. In 2020, we were split on when to add a state, and we ended up not updating the map on Election night because consensus was still divided; it was blank. We did not have an RfC in 2020, so I am hoping an RfC this year could avoid some of the issues we had last time. Requiring projections from only some/most of the sources only, rather than unanimous projections from the sources has WP:SYNTH issues. For example, in 2016 when we combined sources to call states, the race for Trump was called by Wikipedia several minutes before any major media organization had declared Trump the President-Elect. This was an extreme violation of WP:SYNTH that occurred because some outlets called WI for Trump, while others called PA for Trump (both states together putting him over 270 on our map); but no organization had called both states so every media organization still had him under 270. I also created plausible scenarios on my sandbox which show that Wikipedia could be the first to declare a nationwide winner (before any news organization names a President-Elect) again in 2024, if we jump the gun and add states where a majority (but not all) of the sources have made a projection. WP:DUE is met with the light blue/light red shades on the map. If we use option 1 or 3 for the infobox, we could end up violating WP:SYNTH and declaring a national winner before the media. Prcc27 (talk) 20:48, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  The SYNTH issue is in updating the number of votes with our own calculation. We should wait until the broad consensus is that a candidate has x votes before updating that. It’s probably best to leave the projected vote count blank until that time. But if reliable sources agree that a candidate has won a state, we need to say that even if there are holdout sources. —JFHutson (talk) 21:06, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  But we would be saying a candidate has won the state on the map (light blue/light red), and maybe even in the body of the article as well. We would just be more cautious on the infobox tally. We are allowed to make our own calculations per WP:CALC, as long as it is an accurate reflection of the sources. Obviously, having a candidate above 270 in our infobox tally when no major media organizations agrees, would not be in the spirit of WP:CALC. I do not think many users would agree with leaving the infobox tally blank. Prcc27 (talk) 21:22, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah I take back the comment that we should leave the total blank. If there really was a general consensus at some point that Trump was projected to win enough states to win the election, then putting that in the infobox would have been a Dewey beats Truman kind of thing, but the media’s problem, not ours. I don’t think that was the case. In your scenarios, we’re just reporting what the reliable sources are saying. Though I don’t think we use a simple majority. It would be more like if one outlet is holding out, we shouldn’t let that keep is from showing the “consensus” view. — JFHutson (talk) 00:13, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 2 as it doesn't violate WP:SYNTH, WP:OR, or WP:CRYSTALBALL if all major news networks unanimously agree on it DimensionalFusion (talk) 08:04, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 - It follows WP:NOTNEWS and Wikipedia does not need to be updated to the very second. Take the time for all major outlets to make a call for a state. In terms of out lets I would suggest ABC, AP, CBS, CNN and FOX. Grahaml35 (talk) 02:37, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

  We should use NBC as a source as well, especially since I would argue they are more mainstream than CBS. As for Fox News? Unfortunately, I am having a hard time trusting their Decision Desk. In 2020, the network pressured their Decision Desk to hold off on projecting Nevada for Biden. Decision desks should operate entirely independent, with no influence from network executives. Fox News has failed to demonstrate they would do this. Prcc27 (talk) 23:28, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

  Hmmm, I did not know about the Nevada incident. If I remember correctly they also called Arizona like hours before anyone else did in 2020. I would then suggest we switch CBS to NBC and remove FOX due to @Prcc27 comments. Therefore it would be ABC, AP, CNN, and NBC. Grahaml35 (talk) 01:10, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Option 2 per the fact that there wouldn’t be a constant back and forth between edits. Qutlooker (talk) 02:23, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: it was benefical for me to learn from the other user's insight. Please correct if the summary below is incorrect: WP:UNDUE says we reflect the prominence of views in reliable sources. Neutrality in Wikipedia articles requires a fair representation of all significant viewpoints from reliable sources. The prominence of each viewpoint should be reflected in the article's coverage. Minorities might have their views mentioned in a "see also" section, but they shouldn't be given undue weight in the main article. For instance, the Earth article doesn't mention the flat Earth theory because it's a very minority view.WP:SYNTH *Synthesis of published material: when synthesizing published material, it is important to avoid combining information from multiple sources to draw a conclusion that is not explicitly stated in any of the individual sources. Additionally, combining different parts of a single source to infer a conclusion that is not explicitly stated in the source is also discouraged.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 00:47, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC: Infobox Trump's main photo

Hello, Regarding Trump's main photo of "2024 United States presidential election", there were several discussions previously. - example link: Talk:2024_United_States_presidential_election/Archive_7 I'd like to confirm which photos can be used. I've included the top-voted options based on my understanding, but I think limiting it to three additional choices will give us the most efficient results. If a new, better image emerges, we can compare it after this RFC process

• For this RFC process, I propose that we only allow users to vote for one best photo for the Infobox Trump's main photo. This will simplify calculations, as it's easier to determine the winner based on a single vote per user.

• Official

>Every U.S. elections always using official portrait but not in presidential primaries, for example, in 1992 and 1996, Bill Clinton's official portrait was used for 2 times although two times were sequence 4 years ago. weakness of this photo: considering that the age is a concern among some voters, the images of relatively recent can minimise that concern. Trump's 2017 portrait doesn't show a drastically different Trump/no change in appearance.

• Option1

>the long-standing "smug" image; This can be seen as an unkind and arrogant, but on the other hand, it can be seen as a confident looking

• Option2

>it is smiling freindly photo with his face,like Kamala but Trump's expression in the his body is tilted to the left instead of facing the camera.

• Option3

>it is smiling freindly photo and suitable camerawork - example: at eye level, face and body facing camera and he is also smiling like Kamala but there's just an impression that makes him look uneasy. (Above description: I've compiled a summary of some users feedback.) Goodtiming8871 (talk) 23:47, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Courtesy pings to those who participated in previous discussions or expressed interest in the Infobox Main photo. @Super Goku: @GhulamIslam: @Vrrajkum: @Maximus: @Geffery2210: @JFHutson: @InterDoesWiki: @Prcc27:@LawNerd123: @Herostratus: @Nojus R: @Yeoutie: @Calibrador: @TDKR Chicago 101: @GreatCaesarsGhost: @Sthubertliege: @Memevietnam98: @WorldMappings: @Qutlook: @GoodDay: @Tduk:

Official and Three alternative options.

• 
  March 5, 2021 (2021-03-05) (opposing candidate - for comparision)
• 
  Official Portrait October 6, 2017 (2017-10-06); 6 years, 11 months ago (Official)
• 
  March 5, 2021 (2021-03-05) (opposing candidate - for comparision)
• 
  July 15, 2023 (2023-07-15) (Option 1)
• 
  March 5, 2021 (2021-03-05) (opposing candidate - for comparision)
• 
  July 15, 2023 (2023-07-15) (Option 2)
• 
  March 5, 2021 (2021-03-05) (opposing candidate - for comparision)
• 
  October 10, 2023 (2023-10-10) (Option 3)

Voting Section

Comment - I don't think this is a useful question; none of the photos are from this year, and all of the photos that aren't the 2017 photo are fairly similar, so the !votes will go either to the 2017 photo or the recent photos. This is also at least the 5th time these exact 4 photos have been suggested, and each time it is not a useful exercise. There needs to be a truly meaningful attempt to determine if consensus has changed from the (until recently changed) 2023 photo that was in use, hopefully by an as-yet-uninvolved party. I suggested a simple "use the 2017 photo or a more recent photo" poll first to make the issues more clearly separated but this advice has so far been ignored. Tduk (talk) 02:54, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I say we use the 2017 portrait, but that's just my opinion. Lostfan333 (talk) 03:44, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion about 2017 portrait Goodtiming8871 (talk) 03:55, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

The Offical Portrait is my pick. InterDoesWiki (talk) 04:45, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

• Official portrait For the sake of consistency and to avoid another debate about which candid pick to use. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 06:32, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment – if you can only vote for one out of 4 options, does this not create a spoiler effect? If half of the people do not want the official portrait and half do, doesn't the half that doesn't want the official portrait split their vote between the three other options? DimensionalFusion (talk) 11:57, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

No. You are creating a false grouping of three of the options literally defined as "not the fourth option." If anything, a spoiler effect is created favor the current image (option 1) as any other option would need the super majority we call consensus to win. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:14, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

The explanation of user:GreatCaesarsGhost is Correct, That is RCV based runoff, the winner is the one with the most votes among the four options. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 14:07, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Option 1 is not the current image. It was for whatever reason already replaced with the 2017 photo DimensionalFusion (talk) 23:54, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I support the official image. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:14, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Why aren’t there any photos with Trump having a neutral facial expression? And why is a photo proposed by a sockpuppet one of the options? Prcc27 (talk) 18:14, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

• Official, the only normal looking photo. He looks pretty much the same age in all these photos. The main difference is that his head is tilted weirdly in the "option 1," and he just looks extremely weird in the other two. --JFHutson (talk) 18:27, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment – I don't like any of these options.

• I don't understand the support for the official portrait when the Age and health concerns about Donald Trump are a very real part of the election. Trump is 78 but was 71 when the official photo was taken, which is a big difference, even without taking his age and health concerns into account.
• Option 1 (the smug one) has an odd camera angle (seemingly taken from beneath?), Trump's eyes seem to be not matching his face and body making him seem to look down despite facing forwards, and he isn't smiling so much as doing some form of smug look.
• Option 2 also seems to have been taken from below, and Trump's face is not facing the same way as his body and his smile is slanted.
• Option 3 has good camerawork but he just looks wrong, somehow. In a way I can't describe.

I've attached an image I cropped into a 3:4 portrait which is similar to what I think a portrait should be (not suggesting it would be, he is slightly looking away from the camera and not smiling very much)

My personal criteria for a portrait is that: a portrait should...

• represent his age as of the election
• have the camera at (or seem to be at) eye level
• have him smiling (ideally with teeth to match Kamala's but not strictly necessary)
• have his body and head facing forwards

DimensionalFusion (talk) 19:39, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Age and Health Concerns are 100% a part of this election. However- this wikipedia article is not here to express an opinion on that. Just my reason why I'm tossing out any personal opinions and just looking at the portraits as 1) Which one is the best photo and 2) which one best matches Kamala's portrait. (IE- which 2 photos are the most similar and thus least biased.) We could get into such deep waters if we tried to get concensus on what a portrait should ~say~ about a candidate. Trust me- I would love to see one that highlights the fake tan and has one of his ridiculous faces..... but thats how I see him, thats not, necessarily, how history will see him, nor is it how an unbiased person would see him. But I do like your suggested portrait here.... maybe not for the top of the article- but in general- good photo to show his age, but not make him look . . . off kilter. Nightenbelle (talk) 20:12, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Nightenbelle, this picture isn't presidential election infobox material, but it could definitely be used for something. My opinion of course. InterDoesWiki (talk) 21:10, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

In regards to your thoughts on the 2017 photo: obviously it’s not Wikipedia’s job to form an opinion, but it is its job to be accurate.

I think it would be misleading to show Trump as being younger than he actually is, because that, too, sends an opinion. So I think we should put up a recent image - for fairness, perhaps one from 2021 as that’s when Kamala’s picture was taken? DimensionalFusion (talk) 23:39, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

To my eye he looks younger in this than the official portrait. So I don’t see the advantage of this picture. His eyes are also dark. Between that and not smiling, it’s not an improvement. — JFHutson (talk) 21:11, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I never suggested it as an improvement, noting that he’s not staring directly at the camera and not smiling as much as he should be in an info box photo. I said something like that - such a photo could be on commons right now for all we know DimensionalFusion (talk) 23:21, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok rereading your comment I guess you are not proposing we use this photo? I can agree that your criteria are good. I guess where we disagree is whether a 7 year old photo can “represent his age at the election”. I think the White House photo does this well because he looks so similar to how he did seven years ago. — JFHutson (talk) 23:28, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Based on the non-free images I’ve seen lately of him (such as on Getty images) - he doesn’t look great. I’d include them here for reference but that would of course be a copyvio but I can say that in my opinion he looks significantly older than in 2017. That’s why I oppose the 2017 photo so much – I do think it would be misleading to present Trump as being younger than he actually is DimensionalFusion (talk) 23:34, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate the breadth and nuance of your argument, but we have to choose a photo that actually exist. We cannot display a hypothetical photo "like X, but with slight variation." Saying none of the options is acceptable is non-productive and off-topic. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:53, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Everyone looks better in a posed (and touched up?) portrait than candid shots. Harris looks much better in her official portrait than in many of these: [1], as well as these in 2021. If anything she is getting a bigger boost in her portrait. I agree that a 2024 professional portrait would be better, and if one can be found that is an improvement on the 2017 White House photo I would definitely support it. But I don't see the oldness as a big drawback until Trump goes through a significant change in appearance. -- JFHutson (talk) 18:28, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your insight. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 03:39, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

• Official Personal opinions and preferences aside, I think the official portrait is most appropriate for 2 main reasons. 1- it is the "Official" portrait- its how he and his campaign have chosen to represent him- and in the general article on this election- why would we stray from official portraits for the main portrait? Use other photos in other articles or in other places in this article- but for the main photo- let’s keep it simple and use the main portrait for both of them. Secondly- this photo and the other photo are good comparisons. Both candidates are in similar poses, zoom is similar, they are both well-made portraits. There is little room for bias between the two- we can't say we're sending any hidden signals by using such similar portraits. Thats my s cents :-) Nightenbelle (talk) 20:07, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

  I haven't seen the White House photo - which is only being called "official" because people have started calling it that - used in any recent Trump material - can someone show someplace it's been used officially by the Trump campaign? That might be helpful. Tduk (talk) 21:34, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment (2) I don’t think the portraits need to be equal as has been suggested previously. Just because Kamala is smiling in her portrait does not mean that Trump MUST smile in his portrait too. For example, 2008 United States presidential election has Obama not smiling whilst McCain is smiling. We really just need a good picture, not for the two pictures to be equal. DimensionalFusion (talk) 23:44, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed- I'm not so much concerned about matching facial expressions as matching quality and tone. Nightenbelle (talk) 16:34, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I like DimensionalFusion’s proposal. It’s newer, professional/presidential, and doesn’t have a cheesy smile. Prcc27 (talk) 20:28, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment I think that a photo for a US presidential election should be balanced against its competitors. I agree with User:Nightenbelle to some extent, and interpret it as follows:

• For a presidential election photo, the photo officially selected by the US White House is appropriate.
• Since Kamala Harris, Trump's competitor, also used the best photo among her many photos, if there is a photo that matches the competitor in terms of 1) pose, 2) eye level, 3) zoom, 4) face angle, and 5) photo quality, it is fair to use that photo.
• In other words, if Kamala Harris used Official portrait of Kamala Harris and used a photo that can determine the image of the person through the quality of at least 5 of the factors that determine the quality of a photo , then since Wikipedia is in the public domain, I think it is fair for Donald Trump, Kamala's competitor, to also use Official portrait of Donald Trump in the article of 2024 United States presidential election. If you use a non-official photo between two competitors in the public domain, I think it would be fair to find a suitable photo among the unofficial photos on the right example, such as Kamila Harris's one of the photos, to avoid giving one side a disadvantage from the WP:NPOV perspective.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 00:47, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Still think official portrait should be the one that's used. Calibrador (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• Official The flag in the background should match that in Kamala's portrait, which is equally "polished". Senorangel (talk) 04:17, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment I am partial to option 1 simply because it's been the photo used for quite some time, but I acknowledge there was no consensus to implement it. Therefore I think it is easiest to keep the official portrait for practical reasons (given the obvious inability to agree.) DimensionalFusion's picture is my preference among the ones proposed, however. Also, remember WP:NOTDEMOCRACY; there is no "voting" taking place here. Dingers5Days (talk) 08:54, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• Comment - I asked above, but got no reply. Why are we calling it the "Official" portrait? Is there any indication that the Trump campaign uses this image? Tduk (talk) 21:33, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

  It his official White House photo. It doesn’t matter whether the campaign uses the photo. They are not constrained by copyright like we are. - JFHutson (talk) 22:30, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

  No, I agree, except "official" has some implications to people coming to this unaware, as you can see from some of the comments above. This whole thing is obfuscated by having so many different photos, and labelling them differently in each post. I'd like for there to be a clear RFC but this isn't it imo. Tduk (talk) 22:54, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

  Comment: regarding WP:NPOV, Since the competing opponents in the outlook use official photos, the official photo name is used as an option name to remind users about WP:NPOV. To ensure that Wikipedia articles can be edited fairly, there are many unofficial photos of Kamala, such as the unofficial photo option of Kamala mentioned above. Please make suggestions for these.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 23:59, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, part of the thing here is not so much that it is his official portrait, but that it is the only one that is *a* portrait at all: the photographer has set up a lighting rig, has the subject's attention, etc. The photographer would have taken a dozen or more shots, from which the best was selected. The others are candids - photos taken while the subject was doing something else. It naturally leads to a photo of lesser quality. The best examples will be from professionals looking to monetize their output, and thus not free to us. GreatCaesarsGhost 13:12, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

  Comment: Photographers who take pictures of the President or Vice President are likely to be among the most professional photographers. I remember an interview article with a photographer in Life magazine who said that he takes at least a hundred pictures from various angles to find the one best portrait. For this reason, it raises concerns about WP:NPOV that Wikipedia lists as having the same quality rating for a casual, candid, non-professional, non-photographic portrait and a professional portrait. WP:NPOV is understood to be a rule that should be adhered to, even if users and editors agree on it. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 00:35, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

  I'm sorry, I cannot follow your point. WP:NPOV has nothing to do with this discussion whatsoever. Choosing a better photo over a lessor one is not bias. The "official" is good because it's a professional portrait that Trump posed for in an ideal setting, and it's free because it is the work of the US government. It is difficult to find anything comparable that is free and of high quality, because Trump has not sat for a portrait, and those who are shooting him are not offering their work for free. Some do (such as Gabe Skidmore, who provided the 3 alternatives seen here). But the pool of available photos is reduced considerably by concerns of copyright. GreatCaesarsGhost 17:30, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

  Comment:I agree that selecting a higher-quality photo is not biased. My neutral point of view was that all presidential candidates should have equal access to high-quality images. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:57, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

• Official - use official for both candidates. Grahaml35 (talk) 02:40, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

  Comment: I think if all the editors were to suggest using unofficial photos of both candidates, there are some good ones for Kamala, and the one example above is fine. It would create a strong image of her. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 03:29, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

• Official - Yes - use official for both candidates.Lukewarmbeer (talk) 17:00, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
• Note: Please see the discussion on this I have made. I vote Neutral `Qutlooker (talk) 22:48, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

  Knowing these discussions, WP:MORATORIUM needs to be implemented. I would like to note that these discussions are one of the major reasons I added the {{round in circles}} template. Because I assume we'll end up with no consensus at the closing comment again. Qutlooker (talk) 21:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

• Neutral - Still don't have a preference to the image other than maybe changing the 2016 election article to use a pre-2017 image to avoid an issue of reusing the same official portrait three times. Following Qutlooker's comments, I am in favor of a moratorium until after November given that we have had similar RfCs that have failed to generate enough agreement on a preferred image. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:17, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

  Comment: I understand that some user's feedback for netural. I also agree with WP:MORATORIUM to some extent for this topic, and I think that they believe the WP Editors can concentrate on other beneficial topics to the voters of Presidential election this year. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 00:46, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

  Comment: Reason for deleting notavote and related records, RfC usually comes out at least 2-3 weeks after the result.However, I think it is unfair that a specific user interfered by inserting notavote just 48 hours before the official RfC voting started, thereby blocking the voting. * The notavote inserted by one user has been deleted. * If you want to insert notavote in the future, please mention the relevant WP regulations and detailed reasons to get the consent of other users. The related records are summarized below. :* 23:47, 2024-09-02 RfC created - Title: RfC Inforbox Main Trump Photo => * 3 September 2024 12:01 user:Legobot "rfc|pol|rfcid=506FBD" added RFC ID (official). ==> * 4 September 2024 21:24 user:Tduk added notavote. ==> 00:32, 9 September 2024 , user:Goodtiming8871 removed notavote ==> 9 September 2024, Notavote back as - as consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments Goodtiming8871 (talk) 00:45, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

  @Goodtiming8871: I am very confused here by your second reply here. Are you trying to say I did something wrong or did you mean to reply to someone else? --Super Goku V (talk) 22:27, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

  @Super Goku V: You have made your point clear, and I also understand your feedback about changing the photo of the 2016 election article to a pre-2017 image (or another official Trump photo, if we can find one). In short, your feedback is clear to me. Thank you for sharing your feedback and contributions to WP:community.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 00:10, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

  Fine that my point is clear, but your point isn't to me. What is this "blocking the vote" mean? What are you saying about it being "unfair that a specific user interfered." You don't seem to mention me in your comment, but you replied again to your reply to me, so I am a bit confused here. --Super Goku V (talk) 00:57, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

  Comment: I agree with Super Goku V's sentiment, I don't think Trump should have the same three portraits for 3 very distinct presidential elections in a Row. 2016 Should be pre-presidency, 2020 should be official and 2024 should be option 1 or something during the campaign. Likewise it makes no sense for Biden to have a presidential portrait in 2020 when he was still a candidate. The presidential race should reflect an accurate image of the candidate from that year. It's also very likely when he loses he will run again in 4 years, and by that time the 2017 portrait will be more than a decade old. 68.189.2.14 (talk) 09:20, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  Comment: I understand the second suggestion, aside from using the official photo, to be fair to both competitors, to stop the wasteful debate with WP:MORATORIUM and let WP: users focus on more productive things from a neutral standpoint. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 14:23, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  Comment: I also agree with DimensionalFusion it doesn't make logical sense to have a 7+ year old picture of Trump when he's become much older in the time period. The difference between an nearly 80 year old man and a 70 year old man is huge. His face looks much older now, he uses a lot more bronzer, has a wrinkly neck, and lost about 20 pounds. His hair is also really thin and patchy, and he has fine lines all over his face, and rambles more incoherently. Trump can rarely keep a straight thought, or answer a question without rambling now. Trump is really showing his age in this election. Also the way the photo is shot the lightning is not really comparable to Harris'. For a good example, check out the 2004, 2008, 1972, 1968 presidential elections, where the photos are comparable68.189.2.14 (talk) 22:37, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• Comment:: I think User:jfhutson's comment is reasonable. When using official portraits, each presidential candidate looks more convincing and better than candid. Harris also looks younger and more vibrant than her current age(example - right), even though the regular unofficial photos had some advantages for her. If there is an RfC requiring both candidates to use unofficial photos, this could be an option as well. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 07:35, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

The only thing we should care about in my personal opinion is if the image properly captures the subject tied to an event. In this case, I haven't see any issues with the images as they all look appropriate. --Super Goku V (talk) 22:30, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback about presidential images for both candidates. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 23:07, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

7 years is a long, long time. Most presidents go through significant greying and changes in appearance in just 4 years due to the stress! If Bush, Obama and Biden all have recent photos for their most recent elections, Trump should too. I think Harris' picture is fine, Trump's not so much. Seems like this article wants to be biased towards Trump. And sense Trump and Harris recently had a debate, it only make sense to capture what they look like more accurately in this election. And Trump looks very aged, and old, compared to the 2017 photo. Harris doesn't look like she aged to much sense 2021, however.

68.189.2.14 (talk) 23:29, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree that Trump has aged in seven years. He does look noticably older now. Dhantegge (talk) 07:37, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

• Official:: There is no compelling reason why Wikipedia should use the official portrait for one candidate and a candid for another. Both have served in executive office. Using their executive office portraits is appropriate. Given the contentious nature of the election and the tendency of Wikipedia to tilt left-of-center, applying the same standard for both photos seems to be the most neutral path. Jcgaylor (talk) 09:58, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

  Comments: I appreciate your comment about the requirement of the photos that both candidates be held to the same standards. I believe that is a WP:NPOV principle. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 11:37, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

  Comment I do not see the point in using the same image for the third election in a row. It was one of two official portraits - so? We don't have to keep re-using the same boring old portrait just because it was official. I would personally support any of the above except the official one. Trump is going to be an unusual figure in that he has been the nominee thrice in a row. His career outside office since 2021 has been notable enough to merit taking one of the convention photos from July and using it instead. Dhantegge (talk) 07:36, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

  Comment:I think Super Goku V 's opinion is also reasonable, the user's feedback about changing the photo of the 2016 election article to a pre-2017 image (or another official Trump photo, - there's another official photo, I noticed. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 07:56, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

  Request for any change - Let's just replace the 2017 portrait. Take William Jennings Bryan, for instance. There were eight years' difference between 1900 and 1908, and we use different portraits of him for those respective articles. There's not a lot of variety of photographs from back then, hence why we have the repeat between 1896 and 1900. But, now we do have said variety. Undoubtedly someone will start a RfC to replace Kamala's portrait with her official Oval Office one should she win.

  Put it this way - if Trump looks older, if so much has changed between 2016, 2020, and 2024, and if we have a literal plethora of relevant images available, why would we maintain the old photograph for the third election in a row? Dhantegge (talk) 07:17, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think that's how it works. You have to get concensus first in order for a change to occur. InterDoesWiki (talk) 00:17, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for your feedback and I agree with your opinion. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 01:37, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

  @InterDoesWiki But I am trying to get consensus? Dhantegge (talk) 04:57, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

  That wasn't what you said/implied. A Request to Change is different from voting to Change. InterDoesWiki (talk) 10:38, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

• Change I agree with Super Goku V that recycling the same portrait for 3 elections in a row for 8 years is not ideal. An idea would be to change to his first presidential portrait, which coincided with his inauguration, for 2016.
  Even if that happened, I’d still agree with DimensionalFusion and Dhantegge that the 2017 portrait is too outdated to accurately represent him during this election, when he looks considerably different—significant weight loss that resulted in wrinklier skin, hair thinning, and a darker tan, to the point that his skin now looks copper-colored. GhulamIslam (talk) 02:00, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks. Yes, we have ample variety, and yet we insist on sticking with outdated rules, which don't apply to the infoboxes of elections in any other country. Dhantegge (talk) 04:57, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

• Update: There was already an RfC form for replacing the infobox photo in 2016 United States presidential election. I thought it would be better to make it clear to users, so I updated the title to RfC. It seems reasonable to replace the 2016 United States presidential election photo with the proposed new photo. In the case of the 2024 presidential election, if President Trump is confirmed to be elected on Tuesday, November 5, 2024, a new official photo will be taken, so there will be another official photo option at that time, so it would be reasonable to replace it through RfC.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 11:47, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Can we just stop with the RfCs on Trump's Portrait and just prohibit them?

This isn't sarcasm, I'm being serious. Can we have it to a discussion and just have them all prohibited entirely.

1. They go nowhere
2. They're often multiple open at once
3. It doesn't do anything meaningful when we end uo with the same no consensus wording at the top of when they're closed.

I get this might be considered unhelpful, but when we reach the same agreements with the same topics I think we need to just put it to rest. Qutlooker (talk) 22:44, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment: Yep, Regarding WP:NPOV policy, if we place the official for both candidates, there would be no issues. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 00:02, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

You are suggesting a MORATORIUM against RfCs on changing the image, which is possible and does seem to be reasonable in this situation. Where a proposal is made repeatedly, and essentially the same proposal is made again, without new evidence or arguments, only a short time after the close of the previous proposal, administrators closing the discussion may, based upon sentiments expressed in the discussion or an express request, impose a moratorium on future efforts to repeat the failed proposal for a period of time. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:33, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

With the multiple Trump Photo RfC's that have been going on for months now. I think WP:MORATORIUM is necessary now. I have also have this edit to note the constant restarted arguments about which Trump photo to use. Qutlooker (talk) 15:13, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed though I think the outcome of the current item should make the consensus clear. I think most editors don't particularly like the 2017 photo due to age, but it is better (in the collective opinion) than any specific alternative. GreatCaesarsGhost 11:41, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

As I stated at the very beginning of the RFC (if that's what it is), I don't believe any of the recent attempts by the same person to switch the photo to the 2017 photo really represent any form of consensus - for a variety of reasons. Once things quiet down I think a genuine attempt at finding peoples' views is possible, but really all of this seems to have been a distraction to actually change the photo against consensus and keep it that way. Note that I actually didn't (afaik) express any preference for any of the photos. Tduk (talk) 23:44, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Comments: Regarding RFC; Currently, several users are coming to a consensus that it is fair to use the official photo for both leading presidential candidates at the same time.

Or, the next best option is to avoid a more wasteful debate with WP:MORATORIUM. I think the reason the current debate started is that although it is not an RfC to change the Biden and Trump photos in March 2024, several users came together and reached a consensus that Trump should use an unofficial photo but Biden should use an official photo,in my view which is against WP:NPOV. Instead of further wasteful debate, I think it would be more productive to supplement the content about each presidential candidate's policies. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 03:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't see such a consensus being formed; I also think changing the photo against consensus while an RFC is ongoing is not the best thing to have done. Tduk (talk) 02:20, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Comments: I think this discussion is a fair discussion about the current RfC, and it is an effort by users to productively create important Wikipedia articles that are suitable for WP:NPOV.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 11:28, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Compromise - Let's just knock this on the head and replace the 2017 portrait. Take William Jennings Bryan, for instance. There were eight years' difference between 1900 and 1908, and we use different portraits of him for those respective articles. There's not a lot of variety of photographs from back then, hence why we have the repeat between 1896 and 1900. But, now we do have said variety. Undoubtedly someone will start a RfC to replace Kamala's portrait with her official Oval Office one should she win.

Put it this way - if Trump looks older, if so much has happened and changed between 2016, 2020, and 2024, and if we have a literal plethora of relevant, high-quality images readily available, why would we maintain the old photograph for the third election in a row? Dhantegge (talk) 07:19, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

"Spoiler campaign"

Incredibly POV to include this as a suggested article below "Third Party Candidates". I suggest it's removed. Amatama (talk) 13:08, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

There is a section of the page that notes (accurately) that both major parties this year have been strategically supporting or fighting third party campaigns for deliberate spoiler effect. I've updated the link to go to this section. GreatCaesarsGhost 19:15, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing the movement of both major parties. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 08:21, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Debate POV concerns

I have some WP:POV concerns with the debate section:

1. There are currently two sentences regarding concerns about the moderators. This is WP:UNDUE and should be consolidated into one sentence only. “AP News cited an actual example of the unfair debate moderator ABC's biased debate moderation, who fact-checked Trump more than four times.” Not only is this a word salad, but it claims the debate was “unfair” in wikivoice, which is POV.
2. “Many voters thought Harris did better in the debate, but there are also criticisms that she lacked specific implementation policies.” Seems unfair for this to be one sentence. “Harris won the debate, but this” seems like POV-pushing to downplay how well Harris did. Not sure why we would mention her lack of implementation plans, when Trump is the one that said he has “concepts of a plan” for healthcare. I say remove the second part of this sentence altogether. If not, at the very least, the sentence should be broken up into two separate sentences, without editorializing.

Prcc27 (talk) 15:45, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

That first sentence was egregiously bad. I've tried to make things a bit more neutral, but feel free to work on it more. Elli (talk | contribs) 16:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

I will once I am out of 1 revert only jail. In the meantime, I encourage other users to consider making the change without me. Prcc27 (talk) 17:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

I think something much more factual around how each party responded to the debates would be better. Ie. "Following the debates, X% of voters agreed X candidate performed better" (sourced) & Democrats responded with... (calling for another debate and praising her performance), and Republicans cast doubts on the fairness of the process including Trump himself alleging bias. -Hwikipedianuk (talk) 19:26, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

The overall media consensus is that Harris won. The overall media consensus is that Trump lost. If the factchecking is mentioned it should be made clear to our reader that Trump lies about cats and dog and the legal status of the Haitian immigrants were fact-checked to clarify for the viewers. What the campaign staffs thought about the fact-checking is not pertinent. Buster Seven Talk (UTC) 20:03, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Would mentioning Trump’s claim that immigrants are eating pets be WP:DUE? Prcc27 (talk) 22:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Comments : that is exactly WP:DUE, however, I believe that WP:users can update the actual policies of the two presidential candidates on issues such as the economy, border security, and the war in Ukraine, because these are things that actually directly affect the American people. Another thing is that the ABC news of the United States publicly shamed 45 president of U.S.A by fact-checking him more than four times in real time by the ABC debate moderator's unfair debate modulation. However, Harris's several incorrect statements were not fact-checked in real time at all. It is also necessary to add the opinion of the Democratic Party of the United States regarding the analysis of AP News and CNN fact-checkers who said that the presidential debate, which should have been conducted fairly, was conducted with double standards. I noticed that many articles about fairness issues ABC debate on September. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 23:56, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

We already have a main article for the debate; we don’t need to get into every detail on this article. It absolutely is WP:UNDUE to have more than one sentence on the controversy. And Trump was given more speaking time, so there’s that. Prcc27 (talk) 03:05, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Comments :According to WP:NPOV, As criticized by AP news and CNN, it was the most humiliating unfair debate in the United States committed by the media that should be fair. In other words, it is unnecessary to say that Harris did well because the two debate moderators gave her the advantage, which made her speak well. According to WP:Undue, it is unnecessary to say that Trump had more time to speak because the two debate moderators and Harris, that is, three people, pushed the 45th US president into a corner and made him continuously defend himself. This is an accurate criticism of the unfair and biased progress of the ABC debate from other reliable sources. In other words, the fact that the 45th US president used the time to speak and defend the debate time was an example of the ABC debate moderator giving him a disadvantage, not an advantage. This can also be seen in other credible sources that criticize the unfair ABC debates. For example, the debate moderator tried to get the 45th President of the United States to emotionally escalate, causing him to get into a corner and make a mistake in his speech. This is an accurate and credible analysis by other reliable News media experts.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 04:02, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Who said Harris did well because of the moderators..? Most sources say she “won” because she baited him. Your claim is definitely not the mainstream viewpoint. It is only one POV, and we are supposed to give due weight to what most sources say. Prcc27 (talk) 04:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Comments :I've seen it in many places that the ABC debate was unfair and biased. For example, have you seen any news that says that SkyNews and Fox News were giving Harris a leg up? Example: https://www.skynews.com.au/world-news/united-states/sky-news-host-slams-abc-moderators-who-assisted-kamala-in-trump-debate/video/9871c703c81f127a4267951d126665d1 Goodtiming8871 (talk) 07:18, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Another thing is that the ABC news of the United States publicly shamed 45 president of U.S.A by fact-checking him more than four times in real time by the ABC debate moderator's unfair debate modulation. However, Harris's several incorrect statements were not fact-checked in real time at all. Looking at reliable sources paints a much different picture: Former President Donald Trump delivered more than 30 false claims during Tuesday’s presidential debate against Vice President Kamala Harris (...) Trump again delivered a staggering quantity and variety of false claims, some of which were egregious lies about topics including abortion, immigration and the economy. Harris was far more accurate than Trump; CNN’s preliminary count found just one false claim from the vice president, though she also added some claims that were misleading or lacking in key context. From a distorted point of view, the moderators allowed Trump to make at least 25 more false claims without fact checking than Harris. (Additionally, you should know that Sky News Australia is only marginally reliable and that Fox News isn't reliable for politics.) --Super Goku V (talk) 08:37, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the analysis from CNN.

• Several media outlets, including the BBC and The Hill, have mentioned the unfairness of the ABC debates.
• For example, The Hill

(In summary) About the ABC debate moderator on September 10, Meghan McCain, a famous ABC debate moderator, said that the ABC second presidential debate was unfair and biased in the way it helped Harris, which was very damaging to the American people.

"ABC did not immediately respond to a request for comment on the criticism its anchors were facing late Thursday night.

“These are elite Manhattan debate questions – the American people are suffering and can’t pay for groceries and deserve answers how it will get better,” commented Meghan McCain, who once was a co-host of ABC’s popular table talk program “The View : “I don’t know what the hell this is but these moderators are doing the American people a grave disservice.”

• The ABC debate moderators, who have fairness issues, have admitted to some fault for their biased debate moderation. "I can’t be unbiased,”

Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:56, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Daily Mail is not a WP:RS, and your constant soapboxing is becoming tiresome. One sentence dedicated to criticisms by Republicans for the moderators fact-checking is appropriate; anything else would be WP:UNDUE. Dingers5Days (talk) 15:42, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

The Hill and The Times of India can also be seen another WP:RS similar to Associated Press, Regarding the reference, TOI as the most trusted English media news in India, and also the reliability was rated by Reuters Institute. so please refrain from making personal attacks on trying to improve Wikipedia's important articles for their fair editing by follwoing WP:NPOV. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 04:43, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:NPOV means we give due weight to what most sources say. You can’t just cherrypick one or two sources that match your POV, to make a claim not supported by the mainstream sources. This probably isn’t a rule, but I would think we would prefer American sources for an American election article over Indian sources? Prcc27 (talk) 05:58, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I see your feedback, I think that we need to have well balanced view from other part of world as per the important roles of U.S.A. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 03:29, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

• I would like to ask for the opinions of users who are interested in this debate regarding the content below. :::Hello. I'm sending a courtesy ping to those who participated in previous discussions or expressed interest in this WP topic. @Super Goku V: @GhulamIslam: @Vrrajkum: @Maximus: @Geffery2210: @Jfhutson: @InterDoesWiki: @LawNerd123: @Herostratus: @Nojus R: @Yeoutie: @Calibrador: @TDKR Chicago 101: @GreatCaesarsGhost: @Sthubertliege: @Memevietnam98: @WorldMappings: @Qutlook: @GoodDay:

1. If the content is supplemented to correct WP:NPOV regarding the presidential debate, it would be better to correct the biased content that favors Harris. 2. In other words, the content that says "the moderator fact-checked Trump but did not fact-check Harris" is recorded to be more specific, stating that Trump was fact-checked more than 5 times, and Harris was not fact-checked at all. However, another user reverted the current content, saying, "It's as if Trump only checked the facts once, and it's edited biasedly to create a negative image as if he said it was unfair, deleting the fair actual content. 3. The reason why it's necessary to summarize the actual content fairly is that Harris also made two false claims, but ABC did not fact-check this, and the ABC host also admitted in a later interview that he had biased himself during the ABC presidential debate. > I think we should record these actual facts so that WP:NPOV can be guaranteed in the WP content. > Please give your opinion so that the WP content can be edited fairly. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 15:42, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

What "false claims"? Cite your sources. Remember that a "false claim" and a "lie" are not the same; a lie implies negative intent while a false claim can be innocuous. And I doubt that any false claims made by Harris are of the "they're eating the pets in Springfield" level. We don't do WP:FALSEBALANCE. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:02, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

This may not be fair, as News subjectively determines whether a false claim is malicious or innocuous. I saw a BBC broadcast where two US presidential candidates were verifying each false claim item by item.

There is so much broadcast content that I am planning to take time to find the content - not today. I am also planning to share it when I find it. I remember that one of the two false claims was Obamacare.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 16:15, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I saw a BBC broadcast is not a source. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:25, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Kamala Harris won the debate, and Trump supporters thought the fact-checking was unfair. The section sums that up pretty well, and it seems to be more or less neutrally worded to me. We are only supposed to briefly summarize the debate on this article, whereas the main article is where we can get into more detail. The fact is, only one candidate made several false statements, and they are also the only candidate to make outrageously false claims like migrants are eating pets and Governor Walz supports abortion after the baby is born. I also am not aware of any of the debate moderators admitting they were unfair to Trump; do you have a source for that? Instead of pinging everyone, maybe you should read the room? It seems clear to me that nobody supports your proposal. Prcc27 (talk) 16:07, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't think wp:npov can be changed by a vote of multiple WP users. That is, even if, for example, 10 users make a claim, I think it may be against wp:npov. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 16:23, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

To be fair, you are the only one that seems to have gone against WP:NPOV. You added to the article in wikivoice that the debate moderators were “unfair”. WP:YESPOV says “avoid stating opinions as facts.” I think the consensus is clear, and I am not going to entertain this discussion any further. Prcc27 (talk) 16:47, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

My opinion is that you are pushing a pro-Trump POV and are borderline disruptive. If you keep this up, someone is going to request sanctions. GreatCaesarsGhost 17:41, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Goodtiming8871, I think the policy you are looking for is WP:DTS. --Super Goku V (talk) 20:05, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, I already participated above. So I am going to quote myself: "Looking at reliable sources paints a much different picture: Former President Donald Trump delivered more than 30 false claims during Tuesday’s presidential debate against Vice President Kamala Harris (...) Trump again delivered a staggering quantity and variety of false claims, some of which were egregious lies about topics including abortion, immigration and the economy. Harris was far more accurate than Trump; CNN’s preliminary count found just one false claim from the vice president, though she also added some claims that were misleading or lacking in key context." --Super Goku V (talk) 20:12, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

And they had to twist themselves into knots to make Harris' statements sound misleading. Like one was "Harris claims Trump left with worst unemployment since Great Depression" is false because it was actually several months earlier in his term, not when he left office. GreatCaesarsGhost 21:17, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your reminder; Harris false claimed "Trump left with worst unemployment since Great Depression" the fact: it was actually several months earlier in his term- I believe the summary this part should be added in the debate section with reference. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 01:52, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

No it shouldn't. Jesus, I don't know if you're trolling or just obtuse, but either way: stop. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:41, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:DTS. I got a bit annoyed that you wanted my input when you already had it, so I quoted myself. I will try not to do that again. --Super Goku V (talk) 19:09, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

References

A polling article with no polling?

Just wanted to bring this to everyone’s attention: Statewide opinion polling for the 2024 United States presidential election currently does not have any polling data in the article. Prcc27 (talk) 21:14, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Less Evil

Pope Francis criticized both Trump and Harris' policies, and said that American voters should choose the lesser evil of the two. Considering the fact that about 70% of American citizens are Christians, Pope Francis's remarks were almost all published in reliable sources such as CNN, BBC,The New York Times,CBS News and Forbes, and were directly related, so I wrote about them according to WP:NPOV. Among the two election issues, immigration and abortion, since the Pope criticized Trump first, I wrote about the immigration policy. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 07:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Just as in the talk page discussion above, just because something can be well sourced, doesn’t mean it is WP:DUE to be included in an article. Raladic (talk) 07:19, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I concur with Raladic. Per Wikipedia policy, verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. Prcc27 (talk) 08:45, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Almost all of Wikipedia's reliable sources can be documented relevant content. And it can be considered content that improves the fairness of the article. However, I would like to hear other Wikipedia users' opinions on whether it is appropriate to include this commentary by one of the most prominent figures in the religious community regarding the US election. In order to hear other users' opinions, I have included the content with reliable sources below. The proposal is as follows. ==> Pope Francis has criticized both US presidential candidate Trump's anti-immigration policies and Harris's abortion policies. He said both are against life and encouraged people of conscience to choose the lesser of two evils. <== it is the proposed contents. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:02, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose inclusion of such statements. Pope Francis is the head of state of Vatican City, not an American citizen or resident, and such comments are best put on his own article. We rarely put statements by foreign leaders on presidential election articles. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 02:07, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I can see your feedback. In my veiw, we can have international reaction so we can add it to this section with so many reliable sources? Goodtiming8871 (talk) 03:25, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

70% of Americans are Christians, but they are not all Catholics. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:52, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

References

No photo for Green Party VP Candidate Butch Ware?

For as much yapping as this talk page has been doing over Trump's pictures, Butch Ware does not even have a picture on this page, whereas every other VP and Presidential pick of the four specifically outlined parties on the page does. I find it even more ridiculous considering the fact that Jill Stein, both Libertarian Party candidates, as well as Harris, Walz, Trump, and Vance all have the exact same pictures as their respective pages show.

Why does Ware not have a picture? Butch Ware already has a picture on his own Wikipedia page and it wasn't carried over.

I wouldn't be making a fuss since it's an easy fix usually, but the page is edit-locked. If someone is able to fix this as soon as possible that'd be great, as it's awkward just seeing a blank space next to Stein, and frankly paints the party in a bad light. Cedaria00 (talk) 07:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

ge doesn’t have enough electoral votes and polling to have a picture on this page John Bois (talk) 16:31, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

We need a free/CC licensed photo to post. The one on Ware's page was pulled from his UCSB faculty page[2], and does not appear to have been made explicitly free of copyright. GreatCaesarsGhost 18:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Would this photo that Ware uploaded to Twitter himself suffice? [3] Cedaria00 (talk) 22:32, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

If not this one, I've grabbed a picture of Ware from an interview he was participating in, along with Jill Stein, not too long ago. [4] Cedaria00 (talk) 22:35, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm not an expert, but I don't see how either of those waive copyright. GreatCaesarsGhost 17:46, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

This discussion already occurred, but it seems like it got archived quickly due to the photo RfCs. To quote myself, There is a pending deletion discussion regarding the file. Best not to consider to use until that has resolved. In any case, it looks like Cedaria00 might have found one that we might be able to use on the article. Hopefully it is usable so we can conclude this. --Super Goku V (talk) 08:28, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Unless someone wants to go out, take, and upload, a CC image (or if there's an image out there with a compatible licence), we can't put an image in. Wanting to put an image in an article just because "otherwise there's a blank space" wouldn't satisfy Fair use requirements DimensionalFusion (talk ▪ she/her) 19:57, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:NPOV of the presidential debate

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• I would like to ask for the opinions of users who are interested in this debate regarding the content below.

1. If the content is supplemented to correct WP:NPOV regarding the presidential debate, it would be better to correct the biased content that favors Harris. 2. In other words, the content that says "the moderator fact-checked Trump but did not fact-check Harris" is recorded to be more specific, stating that Trump was fact-checked more than 5 times, and Harris was not fact-checked at all. However, another user reverted the current content, saying, "It's as if Trump only checked the facts once, and it's edited biasedly to create a negative image as if he said it was unfair, deleting the fair actual content. 3. The reason why it's necessary to summarize the actual content fairly is that Harris also lied twice, but ABC did not fact-check this, and the ABC host also admitted in a later interview that he had biased himself during the ABC presidential debate. > I think we should record these actual facts so that WP:NPOV can be guaranteed in the WP content. > Please give your opinion so that the WP content can be edited fairly. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 14:47, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

When did Harris lie? We don't do WP:FALSEBALANCE. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:50, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

• The above Talk was closed immediately after I opened it and before I could answer another user's question, without a chance to explain the content. I would like to provide additional explanations for the above content. In the relevant NEWS content, I looked at the fact-check of BBC and found that Harris made two false claims. Since there were cases in which the media interpreted false claims as "lies" in fact-checking, I understood that making claims that were not true could be interpreted as lies. However, to avoid further misunderstanding, I clearly stated the above content as Harris also made two false claims in the presidential debate and included the content in the related discussion that was created first above. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 16:00, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't change thee fact that we already have a section on this exact issue, which you were participating in. GreatCaesarsGhost 17:36, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Democratic Party Section

I suggest we add this in the Democratic Party Section of this article:

On March 6, 2024, Phillips suspended his campaign and endorsed Biden. Phillips received the second-highest number of delegates of any candidate in the Democratic primaries (four delegates gained). We could add these two new sentences to the Democratic Party Section in this article after the sentence that says, "Representative Dean Phillips joined the race on October 26, 2023". Smobes (talk) 21:06, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I think 2024 Democratic Party presidential primaries covers it enough for this article. --Super Goku V (talk) 21:10, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

In the Democratic Party Section of this article it is mentioned that "Williamson initially withdrew from the race in February 2024 but later resumed her campaign, only to end it again on June 11, 2024" and that Jason Palmer "suspended his campaign on May 15, 2024."

It would only be fair and consistent to at least add something for a well known candidate such as Phillips withdrawing from the race. We could just add for example, "On March 6, 2024, Phillips suspended his campaign and endorsed Biden." Smobes (talk) 22:16, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Hmm. I can't agree with the well known candidate part, but I guess that is fine to include. You have convinced me that it is odd we mention the others, but not a person who won pledged delegates. --Super Goku V (talk) 04:59, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I meant he's a well-known candidate compared to the other candidates who were included, such as Marianne Williamson and Jason Palmer, because Dean Phillips is a three-term Democratic Congressman, while the others are not even elected officials. The page is edit-locked for me. If someone is able to add the suggested content regarding Phillips that would be great. Smobes (talk) 05:17, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I would prefer we reduce the section rather than expand it. Compare to 2012 which notes accurately "With an incumbent president running for re-election against token opposition, the race for the Democratic nomination was largely uneventful." The same was true this year, but this section makes it appear there was considerable activity when there was not. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:12, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

The circumstances for an incumbent president running for re-election in the Democratic primary were very different in 2024 from 2012 because, this time, the presumptive nominee withdrew from the race before formally receiving the nomination. Also, when Biden ran for president in 2020, he branded himself as a one-term "transitional candidate." With an unconventional process occurring to choose a new Democratic nominee, more attention is given in retrospect to this section. Some reasons later used by President Biden and his allies to justify the suspension of his campaign, such as the need to "pass the torch to a younger generation," were frequently brought up throughout the primary process by opposition candidates and ignored. Still, the Democratic National Committee paid no attention to these early warnings. There was not more considerable activity in large part in these primaries because the Democratic National Committee did not host debates or forums that could have allowed voters to be more informed of Joe Biden’s age and health concerns long before ever debating Trump. All of the content in this section is definitely part of the story of the 2024 United States Presidential Election, whether unfortunate or not. Smobes (talk) 13:17, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Take that argument to the primaries page. He faced token candidacies that were unsuccessful. Two of the four token candidates are Republican surrogates, and the other two are no names. Using two sentences on the general election page to note "X joined the race. X left the race" is UNDUE. GreatCaesarsGhost 13:37, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

It is quite a bold claim to declare that in the 2024 Democratic Party Section, "two of the four token candidates are Republican surrogates, and the other two are no names." I have never heard this perspective before about all the Democratic primary candidates mentioned. Do you have evidence of this to be true that you can share, or is it just an opinion? Smobes (talk) 13:53, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I do, but it is entirely immaterial to the point: the only other candidates had no chance to actually contest, which means the section is excessively detailed. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:36, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Some candidates, such as Congressman Phillips and Williamson, technically did have a chance to contest for the nomination during the primary. Since they both had ballot access in enough of the 2024 Democratic presidential nominating contests to exceed over 2,700 total possible delegates, if they performed well enough, they could have received the 1,976 pledged delegates needed for the presidential nomination. Smobes (talk) 15:49, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Having a Democratic primary to decide the nominee means the outcome will be determined by the election rather than the prognosticators who are making the probabilities for the desired final election outcome. The point of a primary election is not for the prognosticators to make the decision but to test the candidates by the voters and not have it be decided for them. Sometimes, apparently very low-probability things do happen during a game if there is an opportunity for that pathway, such as seen during March Madness.

Additionally, the claim that Congressman Dean Phillips is a "Republican surrogate" needs some sort of substantiation, even for a talk page. This Wikipedia article is about informing the public about the 2024 United States presidential election while being as politically neutral as possible and not advocating an agenda. Smobes (talk) 16:11, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Neutral point of view

Does this article present a neutral point of view? Medioatarban (talk) 22:58, 18 September 2024 (UTC) — Medioatarban (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Yes. Prcc27 (talk) 23:16, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

@Prcc27 because? Medioatarban (talk) 23:30, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that you don't think it does? – Muboshgu (talk) 23:34, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment: Several parts of contents of this article has concerns of WP:NPOV Goodtiming8871 (talk) 01:41, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

@Muboshgu idk i feel like someone is kinda getting attacked in this article Medioatarban (talk) 19:44, 19 September 2024 (UTC) — Medioatarban (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Who is getting attacked, and in which section of the article? Prcc27 (talk) 19:51, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't feel that way. And you aren't explaining why you do so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . – Muboshgu (talk) 20:01, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Unless Medioatarban has a specific WP:POV concern, I think we should archive this section. Very curious that Medioatarban has only made 2 edits on Wikipedia. Maybe I have PTSD from last month, but I sincerely hope there isn’t any sock puppetry going on again. Prcc27 (talk) 02:12, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

SPA tagged. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:01, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 September 2024

As per the conversation on the Democratic Party Section topic of this talk page, I suggest we add this in the Democratic Party Section of this article after the sentence that says, "Representative Dean Phillips joined the race on October 26, 2023":

On March 6, 2024, Phillips suspended his campaign and endorsed Biden. Phillips received the second-highest number of delegates of any candidate in the Democratic primaries (four delegates gained). Smobes (talk) 06:37, 19 September 2024 (UTC)