Help talk:IPA/Ukrainian

W?

why is W ('water') used for V? V's sure as heck aren't pronounced as 'W'--Львівське (говорити) 14:59, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

In Ukrainian, в doesn't represent [v]. It's not quite [w], either, but the allophones listed at Ukrainian phonology show that that is close to one possible value. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 15:26, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

My understanding of Ukrainian (being Ukrainian) has always been pronounced as a latin-v. Learning the alphabet/grammar it's always been "a, be, ve...vin, vona, etc" and so on. Literally all transliteration systems, including scholarly, use V (the exception being german, which uses W, but germans pronounce W as V so that obviously makes sense). The current article says that B is pronounced 'w as in water' which is just absolutely incorrect by any standard.--Львівське (говорити) 15:51, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

ya, yu and yi

Shouldn't they be more precisied? or they are now? I see only parts of them explained. In "ya", there is only "a" part. Am I correct?178.36.35.38 (talk) 00:20, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Are you talking about the footnote? Should we expand it? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 15:04, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

It is kinda ligatures of ꙇ (iota which represent /j/) + vowels. Toplinden (talk) 19:02, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Where is щ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.137.176.118 (talk) 01:18, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

It is kinda ligatura of шч Toplinden (talk) 19:02, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Symbol missing

It seems the labio-dental approximant is missing. I came here to find out the meaning of the symbol representing the v's here: Yulia Volodymyrivna Tymoshenko (Ukrainian: Ю́лія Володи́мирівна Тимоше́нко, pronounced [ˈjulijɑ ʋɔlɔˈdɪmɪriʋnɑ tɪmɔˈʃɛnkɔ], but had to consult the main IPA article. Rothorpe (talk) 00:10, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

I changed the ʋ's to w's in the transcription to match the IPA key. As noted on Ukrainian phonology, the phoneme /w/ can be either bilabial or labiodental. _{(suoı̣ʇnqı̣ɹʇuoɔ · ʞlɐʇ)} nɯnuı̣ɥԀ 20:56, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Belated thanks. Rothorpe (talk) 01:41, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

There's only one problem with the change, nɯnuı̣ɥԀ (and just to clarify the point for Rothorpe): being that you are completely and utterly incorrect. It doesn't exist in the Ukrainian language (unless you are confusing it with dialect in some of the ex-Galician regions of Ukraine, or as a speech impediment). You appear to have confused Ukrainian with Polish! Please cite your sources and produce examples in Ukrainian. Aside from speaking Ukrainian, I can put you onto a couple of Ukrainian phonologists who will refute your imagined palatalized 'l'. There is only one pronunciation of the Ukrainian 'В', which is 'V' as in velocity, victim, vodka, visa-versa, vandalism. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 07:24, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

So ʋ is a palatalised l? Trying to imagine that. There's not one in Ukrainian, anyway. Thank you. Rothorpe (talk) 13:01, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

No, in Polish, the 'w' is 'v' in the same manner as the German. The only occurrence of anything resembling a w is the ł, Rothorpe: the female name, Małgosia is pronounced as a palatalised 'l'. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:06, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Ah, yes, I know that one, Lech Vawensa, Father Popiawooshko, if memory serves, pronunciations courtesy of British journalists. Rothorpe (talk) 03:19, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

First of all, ʋ is in no sense a palatalized l. If anything, it's a velarized l, as in Polish. I don't claim to be an expert in Ukrainian phonology. I was merely changing the transcription of the name to match the system given here. If there is a problem with the system here, I don't mind it being changed with consensus. I notice that Ukrainian phonology has been redone. I'm not sure if this redo was based on sources or only on Wlad Sokolowskiy's personal experience; I don't like the idea of redoing an IPA key based on someone's personal experience, even if he is a native speaker who studies phonetics. Wlad (I think) changed the Tymoshenko pronunciation guide to pronounced [ˈjülʲijɐ vɔ̝ɫɔ̝ˈdɨ̞mɨ̞rʲivnɐ tɨ̞mɔ̝ˈʂɛnkɔ̝], and has been changing some other Ukrainian trancsriptions. These need to be reconciled to the IPA key (or vice versa), or else the key is useless.

I'm not sure as to where you studied Slavic phonology, but I worked in Slavic linguistics and know a number of Eastern and Central European Slavic languages. I was taught that the 'ł' is palatalised. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:29, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

BTW, the "Examples" column on this article should be examples of words, not just an indication of how the sounds are spelled in isolation. _{(suoı̣ʇnqı̣ɹʇuoɔ · ʞlɐʇ)} nɯnuı̣ɥԀ 18:20, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

I didn't pull all the things I added to Ukrainian phonology article out of nothing, neither did I base it ONLY on my personal experience. I actually questioned 17 (not a lot, but that's all I've got so far) people (some of them are my friends) from Ukraine (2 from Lwiw oblast, 2 from Poltava oblast, 2 from Kharkiv oblast, 4 from Kiev/Kyiv and 7 from Vinnitsa/Vinnytsya, because I live in this area). I asked them to pronounce different (random, but with the sounds I needed) words, sentences and a paragraph from a book (the first time the way they speak Ukrainian casually, and then the "Standard" way). I know how to use different "phonetic" software, but (primarily) I used Praat, and I have some recording equipment. If you really need references, I will have to publish the whole work. BTW, the vowel chart (as accurate as I can do it) and other changes are coming up. Thank you for your attention.User:Wlad Sokolowskiy 11.35 PM, May 5 2014 (UTC +2) — Preceding undated comment added 20:37, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Well then, I guess I'm okay with redoing the IPA key. However, Ukrainian phonology is an actual article and does need to be sourced. By the way, for sake of simplicity, other Wikipedia IPA keys use t and d instead of ʈ and ɖ in the affricates. _{(suoı̣ʇnqı̣ɹʇuoɔ · ʞlɐʇ)} nɯnuı̣ɥԀ 21:23, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Again, to source this I have to publish my entire work somewhere, because I personally conducted this experiment, and I don't think I can do this very soon. But somehow I am going to work this out. And yes, I know how Wikipedia works. I just couldn't bear with the previous version of the article, and I knew I had to do something. So I did. And about the affricates, there was some trouble with that, so I used ʈ and ɖ, they are more precise anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wlad Sokolowskiy (talk • contribs) 21:46, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Wlad Sokolowskiy, for joining us here. None of this has actually been referenced and, when I saw your change to the IPA-uk on the Ukraine article, I reverted it as there were no matching symbols on this page for readers to reference. I hadn't looked at this page for such a long time that I was taken aback to find 'water' and other completely misrepresented letters here. Please be cautious about the application of your original research, nevertheless. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:40, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Incidentally, shouldn't Щ (shch) appear in the consonants? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:50, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't think so, given that it's a sequence of phonemes rather than a single one. Perhaps once there are actual example words, a word with Щ could be used as an example both for /ʂ/ and for /ʈ͡ʂ/. _{(suoı̣ʇnqı̣ɹʇuoɔ · ʞlɐʇ)} nɯnuı̣ɥԀ 01:54, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

True. Nevertheless, a lot of people pronounce it /ɕː/, even when speaking Ukrainian, but I didn't include this because I consider it, well, non-standard, despite the fact it's the most (!) common realization of Щ (shch) among Ukrainian speakers. BTW, in Russian "shch" is entirely wrong, I'd prefer to use "Sch" (contrasting /ʂ/ - "Sh"). Wlad Sokolowskiy

I didn't know that happened in Ukrainian, but I'm not surprised. For Russian, my personal preference would be "š" vs. "ś" as in Montenegrin, but English speakers don't like systems that use diacritics or unfamiliar spelling conventions (Nikita Hruśov, anyone?). _{(suoı̣ʇnqı̣ɹʇuoɔ · ʞlɐʇ)} nɯnuı̣ɥԀ 23:11, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Article: Ukrainian phonology

Don't believe what the Ukrainian phonology article says, it's total bull. I study phonetics and phonologies of languages, and I also happened to be from Ukraine. Answering the question, the letter B (the IPA name is /'vɛ/) is usually represented by /ʋ/ or /v/ in syllable onset (depending on the speaker and speech "rapidness"), and by /w/ or /u/~/u̯/ in syllable coda/linking, but the latter representation is purely allophonic. Of course, /f/ is also possible in some cases (if it's followed by a voiceless/unvoiced consonant or if the person speaks with a russian accent, for more information see Russian phonology). There are a LOT of mistakes in that article, especially concerning vowels and some consonants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.94.6.35 (talk) 00:13, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely correct, 178.94.6.35. I'm trying to establish what kind of qualifications the linguists here actually have... and their sources. There appears to be a lot of theory floating around, but no WP:RS. Thank you for your observations. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 07:45, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Iryna Harpy. If you want to see my improved version of the entire article, check out Ukrainian phonology. Wlad Sokolowskiy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wlad Sokolowskiy (talk • contribs) 21:54, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm currently a little overwhelmed with problem articles, but I'd be more than happy to take a look ASAP. I'm afraid it's been a long time since my Slavic linguistics days and my references have long since disappeared from my personal collection, but I'll assist in any manner I can. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:46, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

English examples

The English equivalents for /i/ and /u/ should be changed. The main difference between English /iː/ and /ɪ/ is the quality, rather than the length. If people feel that it is inaccurate to use "meat" and "choose" for these without qualification, I would be okay with appending the phrase "(but shorter)". However, the use of "ill" /ɪl/ and "book" /bʊk/ does not seem accurate at all. The vowels /ɪ/ and /ʊ/ are much lower and more centralized than /i/ and /u/ (not to mention the fact that for many Americans, /ʊ/ is actually unrounded /ɯ̽/). _{(suoı̣ʇnqı̣ɹʇuoɔ · ʞlɐʇ)} nɯnuı̣ɥԀ 01:51, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

True, I know that. The thing is I forgot to change those... I guess I just didn't pay attention to those. Working on that. Thank you for reminding me. Wlad Sokolowskiy. 3:07 PM May 6 2014 (UTC +2) — Preceding undated comment added 12:08, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Phinumu, you mean that ⟨ʊ⟩ is actually a rounded ⟨ɯ̽⟩? Actually ⟨ʊ⟩ has an unspecified rounding in the official IPA, but ⟨ɯ̽⟩ is, indeed, unambiguously unrounded. Peter238 (talk) 17:02, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Just a small correction: ⟨ʊ⟩ in the official IPA is unambiguously rounded. Peter238 (talk) 16:36, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Having looked at Phinumu's user page, I've established that he/she speaks North American English. I find that the pronunciation of their vowels in particular to be problematic for equivalences in the majority of languages, most certainly Slavic languages. Quibbling over variants of North American English values isn't helpful for establishing a norm for Slavic (or other European languages). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:14, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Peter238: I guess it was unclear the way I wrote it, but for me at least, the vowel is completely unrounded, and doesn't resemble /u/. The unroundedness is mentioned in Ladefoged's "American English" in the IPA handbook. _{(suoı̣ʇnqı̣ɹʇuoɔ · ʞlɐʇ)} nɯnuı̣ɥԀ 04:39, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I thought you were talking about the official IPA. I'm aware of variable roundedness of English /ʊ/. Peter238 (talk) 04:43, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

nɯnuı̣ɥԀ and Peter238, is this a two-way chat per bad WP:TALK#USE/WP:TALK#FACTS, or are you establishing some useful point pertaining to the corresponding help page? What is the relevance of Ladefoge's "American English" to Wikipedia's IPA for Ukrainian? The only significance I can see is that we need to be aware of the fact that we are dealing with more than one standard English pronunciation. Does this mean setting up additional columns and finding the closest equivalent per English variant? Please clarify what the objective of your process is. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:47, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Forget it. I just noticed I misread Phinumu's comment, and that the answer to my question was already there. Peter238 (talk) 20:42, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Mainly, the point of what I was saying (originally) was that the vowel of "book" is, for some including me, a rather bad approximation of /u/, and likewise "ill" for /i/. But it's a moot point now that the English approximations have been changed. _{(suoı̣ʇnqı̣ɹʇuoɔ · ʞlɐʇ)} nɯnuı̣ɥԀ 15:30, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Actually, now that you've pointed it out, I've noticed that 'boot' has been used: completely off the mark. I'd say that 'look' or 'took' is a far better example for all varieties of English. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:43, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I have just examined vowel charts for several dialects of English, to see whether the GOOSE or FOOT vowel is closer in quality to cardinal [u]. (I have no particular information regarding the quality of Ukrainian /u/; I'm sure Wlad has.) It seems that FOOT is closer in Australian English, but GOOSE is closer in both RP and General American. Given this, I think it makes sense to leave it as it is. _{(suoı̣ʇnqı̣ɹʇuoɔ · ʞlɐʇ)} nɯnuı̣ɥԀ 00:17, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

In as far as linguistics goes, my area is predominantly morphology and etymology, not phonology. I'm not going to assume authority here but English, Ukrainian and Russian are my native languages (multilingual upbringing, later studies and such). I also have a very strong grasp of other English 'dialects'/'national variants'. I can assure you that cardinal [u], according to the two examples you've offered, is best represented by 'foot'. I've yet to engage with Wlad properly, but have noted that some of his interpretations are a little strange: no doubt due to English not being his first language. Being from Ukraine, there is a high likelihood of his having learnt Canadian English. The IPA representations here aren't of particular importance to me, but I'm happy to act as an intermediary who knows these languages well enough to interpret pronunciation. My choice = foot. Boot suggests something of an umlaut which simply doesn't exist in Slavic languages. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:16, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I see how it could suggest an umlaut for some English speakers (e.g. Australian, Scottish), but it doesn't really to me. Incidentally, according to Ukrainian phonology, /u/ is centralized before palatalized consonants. _{(suoı̣ʇnqı̣ɹʇuoɔ · ʞlɐʇ)} nɯnuı̣ɥԀ 01:42, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Argh! No, it is not! Thanks for pointing the article out, nɯnuı̣ɥԀ. What's happened to that page? It's on my watchlist, but I haven't been getting any notifications regarding changes. I'm going to have to find time for some serious reverting in the next couple of days. I don't know what credentials Wlad actually has, but he's overwriting sourced content with WP:OR! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:57, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation of β/ β̞

Hi, just to clarify my recent edits, I want the page to make clear that [β] (or [β̞] for that matter) is not exactly pronounced like English /v/. [v] is a labio-dental fricative, meaning it is articulated with the top lip and bottom teeth but [β] is bilabial - meaning it is articulated with both lips and does not involve the teeth. This means it's a little like [v], but also like [b] or [w]. If [β̞] is accurate then /w/ is probably the closest approximation in English (a voiced labiovelar approximant which also does not involve the teeth) so I've used that as a comparison. I hope my version of the pronunciation expresses this without getting too technical. If it's more like [β] then a comparison to [v] would be more appropriate, as they are both fricatives. --2.125.31.119 (talk) 12:53, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm still not certain as to whether the English language example is explicit enough. You might want to read through this PDF. It's a convoluted issue, and I'm concerned that readers will misunderstand the pronunciation as being a distinctly English language 'w'-like sound which doesn't reflect how it it is actually pronounced in real-life usage. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:52, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

(I am the same user as the above IP 2.125.31.119)Thanks for your quick reply. You're absolutely right, it's not perfect but I wasn't sure how else to express it. Unfortunately I cannot read Ukrainian so that link is not helpful. I am not a Slavicist but from what I can gather this phoneme is sometimes realized as a vowel [u̯] or semivowel [β̞] as well as a more closed [β] which seems to be the source of some confusion. However I am having difficulty finding reliable sources.

For now, how about we steal the wording used at Help:IPA_for_Spanish for [β]: "between baby and bevy"? This doesn't quite capture the semivowel realization, but it's a start. --EminentCluster (talk) 01:54, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I'd agree that it's a good compromise for now, EminentCluster. I was looking around for some form of parity in various depictions of phonemes, and it's reasonably close. It may not be ideal, but if I keep wandering around uttering the letter out loud in order to focus on a better depiction I'll either be arrested or my lips will collapse. Cheers for coming up with this! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:18, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

lviv

On the Lviv page it says the IPA is [lwiu̯], but I came here and "w" isn't even listed. Should this page, or Lviv, be updated to show the correct characters for pronunciation? --BLACK FUTURE (tlk2meh) 16:51, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Accent marks

Could someone familiar with Ukrainian add accent marks to all the polysyllabic words that don't currently have them? This is particularly necessary in the vowels section, because stress often affects the pronunciation of the vowels. I added a few stress marks based on Wiktionary, but I couldn't find all the words. (Wiktionary's coverage of Ukrainian is somewhat spotty.) — Eru·tuon 20:14, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:18, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Missing ɟ and ɲ

In Dnipro / pronunciation there are ɟ and ɲ which I couldn't find in Help:IPA/Ukrainian.
I did find them in Help:IPA.
Steue (talk) 18:51, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing it up. Those are alternative ways to transcribe what are transcribed in our guide as [dʲ] and [nʲ], respectively. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 03:31, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

inconsistent pronunciation of 'i'

'i' is pronounced [ɪ] (short 'i' in English) in the audio for "кіт" and "біле́т", but like [i] (long 'e' in English) in other words. Meanwhile, 'и́' is pronounced [i] in "кра́сний" and 'ы' (no equivalent in English) in "ми́ша", but never like [ɪ]. —Coder Dan (talk) 10:52, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Mixed up examples for /i/ and /ɪ/ in Help:IPA/Ukrainian

In ukrainian "i" = /i/ and "и" = /ɪ/. Thus, "кіт" is transcribed as ['kʲit] and "миша" as ['mɪʃɐ], not as [kɪt] and [ˈmiʃɐ]. Cielowiek (talk) 22:46, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Лихвар as an example for /ɣ/

"Лихвар" is more common and understandable example for /ɣ/ than "чахохбілі". Dƶoxar (talk) 12:42, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Consonant + [i]

From the tables, it seems to me that we don't need to mark the consonants preceding the vowel [i] with the palatalization symbol [ʲ] (other than [nʲ, tʲ, dʲ, t͡sʲ, d͡zʲ, sʲ, zʲ, lʲ, rʲ]). However, currently we have Корюківка [kiu̯] vs Батьківщина [kʲiu̯]; Біла Церква [bi] vs Рубіжне [b⁽ʲ⁾iʒ]; Львів [lʲwiu̯] vs Львівська [ˈlʲʋʲiu̯], etc., and when it comes to cases like Сміла [ˈs⁽ʲ⁾milɐ] and відбір [wid⁽ʲ⁾ˈbir], I find it a bit weird that we mark the assimilated consonants with the optional ⁽ʲ⁾, but we don't do that with the consonants immediately followed by [i]. Genuinely asking, is this really a common practice? What if we add ⁽ʲ⁾ to every consonant preceding [i]? --Potapt (talk) 14:52, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

I believe this is because in Ukrainian, palatalization is only phonemic before alveolar/dental consonants, so it would be redundant with other consonants. It's hard to say a consonant before [i] without it being palatalized, so it's kind of automatic. (This is also why hard consonants before [i] in many Slavic languages will retract it to [ɨ] or [ɪ] or something like that.)

Compare Polish where palatalization of labials is in the language at the phonetic level, but we don't transcribe it before [i] (we do before [ɛ] in Polish though). 76.68.68.97 (talk) 76.68.68.97 (talk) 14:41, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Rare palatalized sounds

There are three rare sounds that are not shown on the page: [ʋʲ], as in свято, святий, цвях, Звягель; [bʲ], as in різьбяр; [mʲ], as in тьмяний, тьмяніти. Should these be mentioned? Shwabb1 (talk) 07:44, 8 February 2024 (UTC)