Help talk:IPA/Punjabi

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Similarities with Help:IPA/Hindi and Urdu

The recent changes for this IPA Help Page have made it too similar to Help:IPA/Hindi and Urdu in my opinion because while Punjabi may share a few similarities, it is still a distinct language from both Hindi and Urdu. The reasons why I say this is because the examples given here for the Gurmukhi/Shahmukhi scripts are similar with the ones in Help:IPA/Hindi and Urdu, there two footnotes here which are similar with one saying "/ɾ/ can surface as a trill [r] in word-initial and syllable-final positions. Geminate /ɾː/ is always a trill." and another one saying "/iː, ɪ/ and /uː, ʊ/ are neutralised to [i, u] at the end of a word." exactly the same as the other IPA page not to mention Punjabi phonology does not even mention these two notes or state that these are features of Punjabi. And along with these issues, the transcriptions for tone got removed (which I have now readded) and even the Suprasegmentals table has become too similar with the one in Help:IPA/Hindi and Urdu, especially with the IPA example of "[ˈdeːɦli]" for stress (which in any case got removed from Help:IPA/Hindi and Urdu) and "[ˈʊtːəɾ pɾəˈdeːʃ]" for the doubled consonants.

Of course its my opinion but this IPA Help Page seemed so much better before all these changes were made (the only improvement I can say these recent changes have made is the addition of ISO which wasn't in this page previously). I think if these recent changes are to stay (I think Taimoorahmed11 did most of these recent changes), it would be good if some of these examples here are changed so that it is not too similar to Help:IPA/Hindi and Urdu (at least with examples more specific to Punjabi rather than Hindi/Urdu) and make sure the detail in those two footnotes are referenced in Punjabi phonology (with sources if possible) if they are really features of Punjabi (otherwise I think they should be removed from here or replaced with something more relevant to Punjabi). I would be very grateful if anyone comments on this (especially if you are a Punjabi speaker), many thanks. Broman178 (talk) 17:35, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@Broman178:. Hi Broman. I hope you're well, especially during these times. You are indeed correct that the page looks very similar to the Hindustani IPA page (and even still has Devanagari Terms for "Gurmukhi" examples) and the reason for this is that I ported over that page to here, since the Punjabi IPA page was a mess prior to this. I have yet to finish editing this page but have been pretty occupied over the last couple of weeks. In regards to the phonology of the Punjabi Language, some of the consonants that you have mentioned (like the trilled R) - I have purposely left in because prolonged r sounds in many South Asian languages end up as Trilled R. I have yet to complete the vowels table.

I had actually been working on this page for a long time, but It ended up being messy and since the Hindustani IPA page was revamped, I also decided to revamp this page. You are more than welcome to work on this page :)

P.s, please ping me via {{ping|Taimoorahmed11}}, else I might not be aware of any replies

>> Taimoor Ahmed^{(Send a Message?)} 03:58, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@Taimoorahmed11:. I'm well thanks, and thank you for the reply. I look forward to see your finished changes and I hope they are good although I would suggest that if you want to keep the footnotes, please do mention the information in them in the Phonology section in the Punjabi language article as mentioning them here alone could confuse readers as those notes aren't mentioned there (especially for the trill and the vowel shortening in word-final position). Broman178 (talk) 11:42, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Revert Edit

Hi @Anupam. Hope you're your doing okay.

You reverted my changes to the last revision. I'm hoping you could discuss your objections here? نعم البدل (talk) 15:59, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Salaam User:نعم البدل and thank you for starting this discussion. The reason that I reverted your changes is because the edits to the 'marginal consonants' section were not correct. These sounds do not vary across the border (Lahore and Amritsar are 50 kilometres apart), though people from rural areas might not be able to pronounce them correctly. When nuqtas are used, they are done to render a specific sound, usually from a loanword with origins in Persian or Arabic. For example, x is represented by ਖ਼, the Gurmukhi equivalent to خ. In your table, you rendered ਖ਼ as representing kʰ, which is inaccurate; that is represented by ਖ (without the nuqta). This video would help in seeing how certain words are pronounced in Punjabi rendered in the Gurmukhi script; you will note the Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi equivalents listed at the end of the video, which support the current version of the article, rather than the changes that you implemented. The IPA equivalents are provided there as well. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 16:16, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Anupam: Apologies and wasalam! I didn't see your reply. In regards to your revision, the substitutions aren't just in colloquial speech though? Or what would you consider formal speech? An official who speaks Punjabi natively and holds office may just as well be substituting those sounds? نعم البدل (talk) 17:07, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

I would say that in the media, when the word "hazar" is pronounced, it will usually be ਹਾਜ਼ਰ, whereas in a village, such as Dhadday, rural farmers might pronounce it as ਹਾਜਰ. The level of education and location (rural versus urban) will likely influence the use of those sounds, but as the video I shared indicates, they are definitely used and a part of the Punjabi langauge as spoken in India. Kind regards, Anupam^Talk 12:16, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

@Anupam: Unfortunately, the video you shared a while back has been privated, so I wasn't able to watch it. However, I have been watching Punjabi news channels and other Punjabi videos these days, and I can agree that /z/ gets pronounced more often than being substituted, but the rest of borrowed sounds like /ɣ/, and /x/, do normally get substituted. نعم البدل (talk) 00:42, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

When I get time, I'll try finding another video, but the same is the case with other sounds. For example the word for news "khabren" will be pronounced as ਖ਼ਬਰੇਨ by many of the media personnel, while in rural areas, the first consonant will be pronounced improperly. I hope this helps, Anupam^Talk 09:30, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

With respect, I'm saying that it is pronounced, but more often than not, it isn't. For instance News18 Punjab uploaded this video a mere two hours from when I watched, and in the first 5 seconds, the anchor pronounces 'news' as /kʰə.bəɾ/. If you have time and watch their livestream, you'll notice it a lot more. نعم البدل (talk) 17:50, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply User:نعم البدل. I apologize that I have not had the time to find another video but appreciate that you shared one of your own. I would be fine, for now, if you simply removed the word "colloquial" from the footnote, but left the rest of the sentence intact. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 00:42, 14 February 2023 (UTC)