Draft talk:Nguyen Ngoc Bich

Comments to readers and reviewers

Notes on this revised version

InterstellarGamer12321 (talk | contribs) made some suggestions at Need_suggestions_for_Draft:Nguyen_Ngoc_Bich, in particular, read WP:ESSAY, Wikipedia:Writing better articles, WP:NPOV, WP:MOS.

Below are the features of this revised version based on these suggestions:

• Biography models: Lenin, Qian_Xuesen, Roger_Y._Tsien: I used these articles as biography models, while including extensive and precise Notes with quotations from on authoritative history books. I identify the following problems that are solved in the format that I created for the present article Draft:Nguyen Ngoc Bich:
  • Problems in Lenin, version 02:34, 25 July 2024: In Section Rererences, there are "footnotes," which are actually "citations," whereas the actual references are in Section "Bibliography." Very confusing. There are just three and very thin Notes, with no quotations. The statements in the article are thus not easy to verify. The foreign-language sources are not easily accessible. In contrast, the article Nakba, version at 21:11, 24 July 2024 has extensive quotations, mixed with references, and is thus still not well organized as in the present article Draft:Nguyen Ngoc Bich (see also "Verifiability and readability" below).
  • Problems in Qian Xuesen, version 10:40, 17 July 2024: In Section References, there are citations mixed with references, with no Notes. Citing the same reference, but with different page numbers, led to many duplicated lines (with different page numbers), e.g., citations No.32-34, 36-37, 39-40, 43, etc. are all from the reference Chang (1995), to which there is no link. One has to scroll down to find the book by Chang (1995) in Section "Sources," Subsection "Work cited." There is thus no links to connect the citations to the book and vice versa. The present format in Draft:Nguyen Ngoc Bich is more compact, avoiding repetitions (with the cited page numbers next to the cited reference as superscripts in the text), and with forward and backward links between the citations, notes, and references.
  • Problems in Roger Y. Tsien, version 22:52, 22 June 2024: Like the above two articles, here Notes and quotations are also mixed with references.
  • Other biographies: Chas Freeman, version 16:45, 15 September 2024 (No Notes, extensive quotations).
• Verifiability and readability: Unlike the article Lenin---which has extensive references, but few quotations from the referred sources, and thus left much to be desired (such as it is hard to access certain foreigh-language sources to verify)---the article Nakba, version at 21:11, 24 July 2024, also had extensive quotations, mixed with the references, in its Section References, and therefore quite messy. Here, I designed a format that allows for quotations from authoritative sources to be gathered in Section Notes, and yet keep the Notes (with quotations) separated from the references (which are not mixed with quotations). Flexibility: There can be as many sources as needed that can be cited in each Note, which in turn can include references (citations) to other Notes. Such referencing (or citation) is not possible using the template {{efn}} and {{sfn}}, since it is not possible to refer to another Note within a Note.
• Avoiding problem with {{efn}} in image caption: When using the template {{efn}} in image caption, there is an error, as documented in Section "Error when using {{Efn}} in figure captions and galleries" in c:User talk:Egm4313. Using the present format, there is no such error when referring to a Note in an image caption.
• Style, version 22:14, 22 March 2023: Inverted pyramid: The most important historical facts that yielded notability are presented first, followed by facts with decreasing importance and/or notability. See also Information style and tone.
• New structure with shortened titles: Broke down the article into smaller sections with concise titles in WP:NPOV style (removed praising adjectives). See Point 4 "Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each" in Wikipedia:Good article criteria, which is referred to in Wikipedia:Good articles.
• Additional historical facts with extensive references: Extended the article to add many historical facts surrounding Nguyen Ngoc Bich, together with extensive references and notes. See Point 2 "Verifiable with no original research" in Wikipedia:Good article criteria, which is referred to in Wikipedia:Good articles.
• Historic photos: Added relevant historic photos to pique the interest of readers. "A picture is worth a thousand words." An article without pictures is boring. See Point 6 "Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio" in Wikipedia:Good article criteria, which is referred to in Wikipedia:Good articles.
• The current Draft:Nguyen Ngoc Bich has much more extensive content than a VERY large number of existing stub biographies, such as Nguyễn_Văn_Tố, version 20:54, 22 April 2024 (very poor since 2013), Matt_Keeling, version 21:02, 15 November 2023 (egregiously poor since 2020), Edmund_F._Robertson, version 07:48, 2 January 2024 (very poor since 2008), Carl_Naibo, version 04:33, 26 January 2024 (very poor since 2007), etc. to cite a few. See a HUGE number of all stubs in w:Category:Stubs. The application of the "standards" has thus been highly uneven and unfair. Would you move all these stub articles back to "DRAFT" status?
• Before a reviewer talks about "standards," they must learn about the existence of a HUGE cache of sub-standard articles, for without such knowledge, they just display their own ignorance. If they did know about the existence of such HUGE cache of sub-standard articles, and still talks about "standards," they were utterly hypocritical and unfair.
• Format: There is NO standard format mentioned in Section Style and format, version 23:54, 3 May 2024. In fact, the HUGE cache of sub-standard articles contains a large number of format variants, in particular biographical formats. There is a difference between a "standard" and the reviewer personal preference. See also Section Official rule or personal preference? on Wiki Commons.

Updated Egm4313.s12 (talk) 13:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC) ◉ Started Egm4313.s12 (talk) 13:37, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Other talks

@Slgrandson: The image in the right column is reserved for a portrait when this article is accepted. This portrait can be seen in Nguyen Ngoc Bich (1911-1966): A Biography. I still have a long way to go. So I am moving the image back to where it is intended. I will also restore the gallery. I need some peace to work, and not an edit war. That's why this is a draft. Thanks for your kind suggestions in Version 03:03, 28 May 2023. Egm4313.s12 (talk) 00:22, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

@Slgrandson: I kept for your formatting for insertion of a portrait in the right column, and just replaced the portrait with another one.

There is one thing you could help is to prevent map removers from vandalizing the article (see the early history of this article before it was moved into a draft). These map removers confused personal preferences with official rules, and imposed their own preferences on others, claiming maps were hard to read (!), and in doing so violated a key advice for good articles, which should be well illustrated with images. If you looked into articles written by these map removers, you would see that their articles had zero illustration (images)! Your help here (in convincing them not to remove maps) would be great. Thanks. Egm4313.s12 (talk) 21:13, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

@Egm4313.s12: Sources saved for future use:

• FRENCH INVOLVEMENT IN VIETNAM & DIEN BIEN PHU This 1962 episode of the TV show "The 20th Century" presents the story of the French involvement in Indochina and the devastating collapse at Dien Bien Phu. Narrated by Walter Cronkite.

• Geneviève_de_Galard

Egm4313.s12 (talk) 22:57, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

@Egm4313.s12: Reminder in case of continued harassment by anonymous users, with no public credentials, who confused official rules with personal preferences, which they imposed on others: Use WMF Global Ban Policy, Criteria for consideration of a global ban, Requesting a global ban, Trust and Safety