Talk:List of national flags of sovereign states

Initial guidelines of this list

IMPORTANT! Please do not rely on these guidelines! They are somewhat accurate but I have had many changes in opinion regarding the style of the list. I have decided to just let people ask me about the changes instead of preparing a style guide which will require constant updating. If you have a question regarding the format of the list, please ask in the section below.; (notice added: ―Howard • 🌽³³ 21:50, 10 September 2024 (UTC))

I know that this list will inevitably draw others to edit it, however disharmony may also arise due to conflicting definitions for inclusion within the various columns. Therefore, I am going to provide a brief description of what exactly ought to be included in each column of the list. Of course, these are merely guidelines, and initial ones at that. Do not think that exceptions cannot be made for specific instances or that these guidelines cannot be altered through discussion and consensus. These guidelines are merely supposed to provide a foundation upon which we can build this list and further collaboration.

Countries included

• The list is divided into two sections: flags of UN member states and observer states (or simply UN states), and de facto states. UN states are included by default, there should ideally be no dispute concerning them. The criteria for inclusion for de facto states is whether reliable sources describe them as de facto sovereign over their own territory. As of August 2024, de facto states include Northern Cyprus, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria, Kosovo, the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, Somaliland, and Taiwan. An eye should be kept on these states, as they may spring up and disappear at a moment's notice. Note well that inclusion of a sovereign state within the list does not amount to an endorsement of that state or its government. Our job is to reflect the reliable sources on this sensitive issue, not to make our own judgements.

Flag column

• The flag column must include an vector image of the national flag of a specific country.
• In some cases, however, a country does not necessarily designate a "national flag," but may instead have a civil flag for general civilian use.
• If no national flag is specified by a government in question, then we display the civil flag.
• If no civil nor national flag is specified, then we display whatever flag is noted by reliable sources as being the "national" flag.

State column

• The common shortened name of each country in English is used (Germany, not Federal Republic of Germany), unless if the official name is necessary for disambiguation (Democratic Republic of the Congo and Republic of the Congo).
• By default, the list is ordered alphabetically according the name of each country. Some exceptions concerning alphabetization are applied here:

• If a country has an uppercase "The" in its name (eg. The Gambia, The Bahamas), these definite articles are placed at the end for sorting. (The Gambia is sorted as Gambia, The)
• If a country has their official name as part of a disambiguation, then, for sorting purposes, these official descriptions are placed at the end (Republic of the Congo is sorted as Congo, Republic of the)
• In any other case of a multiple word name, we sort these according to the first letter in the full name (North Macedonia is sorted as North Macedonia).

Official use column

• This column indicates how the flag ought to be used according to the relevant government authority. Remember, this may not necessarily reflect a flag's de facto usage among the general public or even the government themselves.

Aspect ratio column

• While reading through sources, I have discovered the information the aspect ratio of a flag is often contradictory. If there is disagreement among sources, consult the official flag law and cite that.

Timeline of adoption Date of latest design

• This column details a timeline of when the current flag – and/or ancestor flags thereof – were adopted by a government, a nationalist organization primarily responsible for the founding of the country, and/or a predecessor regional government which later gained independence.
• By ancestor flag, I mean that the current adopted flag should in some way be heavily based on it (current US flag is heavily based on the Grand Union flag). A direct lineage of design should be drawn between the current flag and ancestor flags for the ancestor flags to be mentioned.
• If the current flag exists due to a merge between two different flags, only note the dates of the merges, not of the individual flags of which it is made of (eg. flag of the UK, flag of Tanzania).
• If the flag of a country contains the flag of a foreign country (Australia, New Zealand), do not mention the history of the foreign country's flag.
• Dates for first known usage of the flag are not mentioned unless if it is usage by a government or ruling dynasty (eg. Monaco)
• Dates for the creation of the flag are not mentioned, only adoption.
• Dates for coats of arms on which a particular flag is based on are not mentioned.
• Dates of popular usage of a flag (eg. during protests or uprisings) are not mentioned.
• This is probably the most disputable section of this entire list of guidelines, I have tried to handle every edge case but I expect that a passage or two might be vague.

After much consideration, I'm scrapping the "timeline" style of showing dates, for various reasons.

• Several dates included at a time have extended the text in the column beyond usefulness as a general reference.
• The criteria for inclusion of the dates are vague. Should we include the dates of adoption of a flag by regional governments? political parties? national movements? general usage? It is impossible to tell who ought to be counted here, and none of the previous are even governments of sovereign states.
• How many revisions and modifications can a flag go through before it can be considered the "same flag"? Many flags throughout the world trace their roots to some ancestral flag, however there is no definitive way to know if it is indeed the same flag. It's a classic Ship of Theseus problem, but this article does not deal in philosophy. Therefore, we are to include the date of the latest flag.
  From this point on, the column is to be renamed "Date of latest design" and only a single date is to be included, not multiple. Here we shall refer to the most recent dates of proclamations or legislation relating to the design of a national flag. We shall exclude laws of standardization if reliable sources recognize that no modification of design is included in the law. If a government establishes a flag prior to independence and does not establish any alterations to the design following independence, then we include the date of independence with a footnote explaining that it was retained from a previous government. (edited ―Howard • 🌽³³ 23:04, 24 August 2024 (UTC))

Designer

• In a lot of cases, we simply don't know who designed a particular flag. We use the {{N/a}} template for such cases.
• {{Sortname}} template is used when filling in names. Please be aware of regional naming conventions when filling these in.
• Please consult reliable sources to find out who designed a flag. There are often unsubstantiated traditions and legends for this kind of stuff.
• If one or more ancestor flags and the current flag are designed by different people, include a bullet point list of all relevant contributors.
• If there was a primary designer who had assistance, note the assistants in a footnote.
• If the designer is disputed, include a footnote with a brief explanation.

Description

• Descriptions are copied directly from The World Factbook's individual description for each flag.
• Add language tags when foreign-language text is included in the description, along with translations.
• Do not include the Factbook's description of the symbolism of each flag. Only physical designs should be described.

References

• The majority of references of this list are drawn from Whitney Smith's flag entries on Encyclopædia Britannica, Alfred Znamierowski's encyclopedia of flags (I currently have the 2013 edition although I will update the references when I have access to the 2020 edition), and The World Factbook.
• Government websites and flag laws are consulted if there is contradiction with the specifications of each flag.
• {{Sfn}} is used for citing different page numbers of individual books.
• {{Britannica}} is used for citing Britannica articles.
• {{CIA World Factbook}} is used for citing The World Factbook.
• {{Cite encyclopedia}} is used for citing encyclopedias and dictionaries which sort entries alphabetically. Znamierowski's encyclopedias do not follow this format, therefore Sfn is used instead.
• LIT Verlag country handbooks are cited occasionally, however I only have partial access to these works. The full cost is prohibitively expensive, so I can only cite from the partial sections that Google Books allows me to view.

Footnotes

• Footnotes are often used to provide a fuller explanation where necessary but also where text space is limited.

I am still yet to reach the end of this list, and when I do, I will review the entire list again to ensure these guidelines are fully met. Good luck to anyone else contributing, and I hope we may fruitfully collaborate.

―Howard • 🌽³³ 12:29, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Corrections and alterations to the above text are contained in the footnotes below:

References

―Howard • 🌽33 19:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Questions and Answers

Instead of writing a whole style guide, I believe it would be far more useful if people were merely able to read some answers to questions they may have. I'm going to try and provide an explanation to the massive reforms I have undertaken. You are free to reply with further questions.

Why has the title been changed to "list of national flags?"

1. To be consistent with List of national anthems.

2. This is the most concise way of titling the list. (WP:CONCISE)

3. In general English usage, "national flag" refers to the flag of a country, which we consider synonymous with "sovereign state." Therefore it should be clear that flags of stateless nations are not included.

4. "Sovereign state flag" is an extremely uncommon term, even in scholarship, and not immediately understandable.

Why has is the lead image a collage of flags?

1. Lead images look nice.

2. The collage aims to represent a global selection of flags. Of course, it is impossible to be truly inclusive with only 9 images but as far as I am aware the provided images provide a broad enough sample.

3. The images provide examples of the flags in various contexts which help illustrate the meanings they have to people.

Why aren't Niue and the Cook Islands in this list?

I was unable to find any sources which indicate that those places were sovereign states. If possible, please provide me with such a source.

Why are multiple flags included for some of the countries?

This occurs when reliable sources use different illustrations as the national flag of a country. For example, the state flag of Austria appears in Encyclopaedia Britannica and Znamierowski's encyclopedia of flags, but the civil flag appears in the CIA World Factbook and DK's Complete Flags of the World. In order to be faithful to the sources, both illustrations are used.

What do the dark grey cells with dashes in them mean?

They mean that information regarding the subject of the cell has not been noted by reliable sources.

Why are the descriptions of flags sometimes different than those provided by the CIA?

The CIA World Factbook provides information regarding both the description and symbolism of each flag. The symbolism is omitted alongside detailed descriptions of coats of arms and emblems. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 21:44, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 10 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Discussion here came down not so much towards disagreement with the interpretation of relevant policy, but rather with the scope of the article. Support arguments were largely based on WP:CONCISE and WP:CONSISTENT, with List of national anthems. However, oppose arguments raised questions to whether "national flags" is sufficiently precise as users noted the flags of Greenland, England, Wales, etc. are also national flags not included here. For that reason, the alternative option "List of flags of sovereign states" was also proposed. Between the three options (as nominated, alternate, and current titles), I find there is no clear consensus in favor of any of them. I would (strongly) suggest a discussion about the scope of this article (ie. whether it should be focused on national flags, or those of sovereign states) before another move request, but no prejudice against opening a new request before then. (closed by non-admin page mover) estar8806 (talk) ★ 02:30, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

---

List of national flags of sovereign states → List of national flags – 1. To be consistent with List of national anthems.

2. This is the most concise way of titling the list. (WP:CONCISE)

3. In general English usage, "national flag" refers to the flag of a country, which we consider synonymous with "sovereign state" in the article. Therefore it should be clear that flags of stateless nations are not included. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 22:22, 10 September 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 04:44, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

• Weak support per WP:concise.

𝚈𝚘𝚟𝚝 (𝚝𝚊𝚕𝚔𝚟𝚝) 23:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Mostly oppose

The flags of England, Scotland, Wales are "national flags".

The flag of the Isle of Man is sometimes described as a national flag.

https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/im.html

The flag of Greenland is sometimes described as a national flag.

https://www.worldatlas.com/flags/greenland

I don't think these flags should be included but I do think the clarity in the title is worthwhile.

I would support List of national flags redirecting to List of national flags of sovereign states DotCoder (talk) 10:54, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support It's important to be concise, and it's perfectly standard and appropriate not to have all the inclusion criteria in the title. It would still be fine to then say in the body that the list is for sovereign states, regardless of who uses the term "national". Reywas92^Talk 13:44, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

• Weak Oppose either include all national flags (including Greenland, Panama, Curacao etc...) or stick with the precise terminology which is sovereign states. As an aside, do State of Palestine and Holy See (Vatican City) constitute sovereign states? ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 20:21, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

  Vatican City and Palestine are included by virtue of being observer states at the UN. This has been the subject of debate at List of sovereign states and consensus there is to include the observer states also. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 21:44, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

  Last nitpick, we should call it Holy See since that's the sovereign organ, while Vatican City State refers to the geographic ground, which is so tiny it does not even host embassies. But fair enough re Palestine and Holy See then. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 23:36, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

  Well, this is a list of flags of sovereign states. On the one hand, every vexillological source I've used calls it directly the flag of Vatican City, including . On the other, that is what List of sovereign states includes. On the other other hand, it's a list of flags of sovereign states, not organizations. As far as I am aware, the foremost expert on the flag is Rev. William M. Becker, who wrote a book on the flags of the Vatican and the papal states. He calls the flag the "flag of Vatican City State" and quotes the constitution of Vatican City as calling the flag the "Official Flag of Vatican City State." It is therefore my opinion we should write the entry as the flag of Vatican City and the state as Vatican City. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 23:58, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

References

• Support, there is no other page titled "list of national flags" that needs disambiguating and it is the most concise title. Di (they-them) (talk) 04:57, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose and move to List of flags of sovereign states, as with List of sovereign states, to which List of nations and List of countries are redirects. Ham II (talk) 06:12, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
• (Oppose the redirect here from Gallery of sovereign state flags) - I don't know what's happened or why you removed the excellent flag gallery you had before. Please bring back the gallery view. You can browse so much more easily. This page is essentially useless. The gallery view is the only one I need. It can be browsed very quickly, and I can click on the individual one I need. I use it for learning the flags for pub quizzes, and it has been excellent. I can click on specific ones and learn individual history lessons for interest as well, but mostly I need the browsing. IBE (talk) 17:03, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

  There was a deletion discussion regarding this which resulted in the consensus to delete the gallery. If you want the gallery view, please go to c:Sovereign-state flags on wikimedia commons. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 17:18, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support for much-needed concision. The oppose comments are all over the place, ranging from unexplained to irrelevant. Reywas92's comment above, it's perfectly standard and appropriate not to have all the inclusion criteria in the title, sums up my thoughts on most of the opposes. Toadspike [Talk] 12:32, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

  I would also support moving to List of flags of sovereign states. While it is significantly longer than "List of national flags", it is better than the current title. Toadspike [Talk] 17:28, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose and move to List of flags of sovereign states Nation is harder to define than sovereign state. There are also states that define themselves as plurinational. Multinational states also may exist. Quebec can be seen as a nation. Rolluik (talk) 18:24, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

  I understand this concern and took it into account when making my !vote above, but I think the benefits of recognizability (WP:COMMONNAME) and concision (WP:CONCISE) outweigh this semantic technicality. To a lesser extent, consistency with National flag (WP:CONSISTENT) supports the move as well. "Accuracy" is not one of the five CRITERIA. Toadspike [Talk] 18:55, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

  National flag doesn't explicitly define its scope as the flags of sovereign states in the way that this list does. Consistency with List of sovereign states would be preferable, and List of flags of sovereign states is still a concise title. Ham II (talk) 07:33, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Columns

Pinging @Reywas92 and @35.139.154.158, who both sent in suggestions regarding the content of the list in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gallery of sovereign state flags. I've mostly been developing the list myself up to this point so I really appreciate your inputs.

Regarding the "description" column, I just thought it made sense to explain how the flags ought to look. The CIA World Factbook is where I copied the descriptions from, with adjustments when necessary. I did not take the overall width of the list into account since my PC displayed the content normally, but I will attempt to correct this.

As for the "official usage" column, I had thought this was also necessary since Template:Infobox flag includes such a parameter. I based the format heavily on the infobox parameters since I thought they would summarize each flag well.

I've considered adding a column for "symbolism" but I'm afraid this might also take up too much space. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 18:09, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

The references have been provided for each flag so that the viewer can easily find the exact page of what I am referencing.

With regards to the distinction between flag types (civil, state, national flag, ensign, etc.), I was working with the assumption that these are well-known terms. Indeed, they each have their articles which go into more depth. It should be noted that mentions of "national flag" in this column specifically follow the vexillological definition (this definition is provided in the background section) and not "national flag" as is used in general English. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 18:20, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

While I am familiar with vexillogy, that is a bad assumption. Whether a flag is used on ships is not a detail that needs to be included. Without specification of what the differences between civil and state flags are for particular countries – and to what extent those differences are observed in practice – this just adds confusion. The article already identifies in the title that all of these are national flags, so it's redundant to list that nearly all of them are national flags, but then confusing to suggest that some aren't national flags but are state flags instead. This general list should avoid this jargon that doesn't have in-line context of flag versions and usages and that takes up table space. Reywas92^Talk 14:01, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Your argument does make sense, now that I think about it. I originally included the official usage column since such information was provided in the infobox of Znamierowski's encyclopedia and the flag infobox template, but it appears that confusion inevitably will arise considering that two different definitions are used in the article. I will remove the column shortly for this reason. But I do still need to know if additional columns such as "symbolism" should be added, could I have your opinion on this? ―Howard • 🌽³³ 15:08, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I think if there are any usage notes that are important, they can go in the description section. For symbolism, important symbolism can selectively be incuded in the description as well, but it's not universal or significant enough to have its own column. A lot of flags' colors are based on historical usage and don't have true symbolism, or they're something generic like blue is for water and sky. Plus it can be redundant for the description to say it has a certain element then restate that there's that element with a meaning. Reywas92^Talk 15:42, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

I've removed the usage column as I said I would. Now, I have a bold idea which we could possibly include in the list. Perhaps we can use the cell color template to indicate if the flag is a part of a flag family, including but not limited to Pan-African flags, Pan-Slavic flags, Pan-Arab, or Nordic flags. If a flag is of a particular family, we will color its cell with a designated color. A legend above the list would show what designated colors mean. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 21:21, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I think that would be way too much clutter since there are a lot of them. And there's already a whole article with galleries of all the family members. They could be wikilinked in the descriptions where natural to mention though. Reywas92^Talk 21:06, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Designer of the current US flag

In the designer section for the current United States flag, it says it was designed by "Robert Heft", upon clicking the wikilink, it brings me to a section talking about how this is just a common myth that has been debunked. Can this be removed then? Nervelita :3🏳️‍⚧️ (talk) 12:43, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

 Done: Thank you for noting this, I've now corrected the section. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 14:26, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, you're doing good work. Nervelita :3🏳️‍⚧️ (talk) 15:11, 19 September 2024 (UTC)