Draft talk:Homicide of Yazmeen Williams

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Lead section has extra information

@9t5: I added a clean-up tag indicating that the lead section has extra information, because the lead section is the only place in the article where the circumstances of this crime are described. See MOS:LEAD for purpose of the lead. It provides an accessible overview to the whole article. I does not serve as a newspaper lede because Wikipedia is not a news website. Information in the lead should be in the body of the article too, while some of the information in the body should also be included in the lead section. See WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY for more advice and information. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 20:01, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cameron Dewe Wow I don’t even know how I did that. Thank you for the correction. 9t5 (talk) 20:03, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cameron Dewe Oh I see you just added the tag. Well.. thank you for bringing it to my attention, anyway. Cheers. 9t5 (talk) 20:06, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Naming this crime a murder

@9t5: Wikipedia naming convention for murders is that a suspect needs to be convicted of murder before an article is named Murder of ... <victim> ... - Cameron Dewe (talk) 20:08, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cameron Dewe Yep, I’m aware. That’s exactly why I didn’t name the suspect. Cheers. 9t5 (talk) 20:23, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cameron Dewe Oh you’re saying that for it to be called a murder? That’s absolutely ridiculous. The medical examiner declared the death a homicide. Even if the suspect is cleared, it’s still a homicide case. 9t5 (talk) 20:24, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@9t5: Proving murder requires that the prosecuting authorities present a case against the accused person that demonstrates both the act of killing and an intent to kill. Because a person is presumed innocent until found guilty in court, Wikipedia cannot verify it was murder. The word "homicide" is a more general term used in crime classification to mean that the death has occurred and should be investigated to determine if someone was culpable for the death of a person. At present, while the police might say they are investigating this case as a murder, and have laid charges against a suspect, it has not been proven to be a murder beyond reasonable doubt, yet. This situation will change if given time for the legal process to play out, which might take a year or so depending on the effectiveness of the court system involved. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 21:12, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cameron Dewe Yes, you are 100% correct. I have been a little on edge lately when editing, I apologize. I just went through a stampede of editors tearing my contributions apart needlessly because I had proposed a policy that they were all unhappy with and I had the audacity to defend my point of view. Your edits and comments on this talk page were absolutely warranted. I spent time yesterday cleaning up the article. I still need to find an appropriate article to link to it, so for the time being the orphan tag has to stay. I will keep you updated on that. 9t5 (talk) 21:37, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@9t5: Thank you. I tend to prefer the softly, softly, approach by pointing out the guidelines that most Wikipedia editors already accept should make a better article. As I having been editing Wikipedia, and other wiki, for a while I think I now understand that one can never have the last word on a wiki and, in order to achieve consensus, future editors need to accept and agree with your position, otherwise they will have the last word. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 22:14, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cameron Dewe, I watched two seasons of Softly, Softly this past weekend thanks to this edit haha. I had never even heard of it before. I am happy I was curious enough to click your wikilink.
Cheers! :) 9t5 (talk) 20:57, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cameron Dewe The link to the standard regarding this that you included says:

A determination of the manner of deathshould be made by some official authority, such as a coroner, coroner's inquest, medical examiner or similar expert person or organization.

So I moved the article to Homicide of Yazmeen Williams

9t5 (talk) 20:26, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@9t5: I am happy with that title, since you have a source from an official authority that uses the term. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 21:15, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cameron Dewe Indeed I think it makes the most sense per the guideline you shared. Thank you for bringing the issue to my attention. Cheers! 9t5 (talk) 21:33, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]