Category talk:Songwriters

Why are songwriters considered writers

Songwriters are musicians, not writers. The category could include lyricists or only composers of music. This should not be a child cat. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:00, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

They are both, just as Ronald Reagan was both an actor and a politician. Not all songwriters sing/play an instrument, and not all musicians write songs. It also seems odd that you think a name that includes the word writer would somehow not be a writer. Also note, there are intersections of writer/songwriter in other parts of the cat tree, so this needs a far broader discussion than just you making a decision. Aboutmovies (talk) 04:11, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Keep the writer category. Some songwriters are indeed writers (poets), and others are composers. It is highly likely that a composer would also solicit a poet-type songwriter to compose lyrics while the composer composes music. — kikichugirl ^speak up! 04:25, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

It seems that Songwriters should be destroyed and we need a lyricists category and a composers category as the the latter term has become conflated with "songwriter". Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:36, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I think that a songwriter is considered a writer because when one talks about composition, they use "I wrote a song" synonymously with "I composed a song" if they are talking about a song that has lyrics. Even so, when a piece does not have lyrics, people say "I need to write the next few bars" of music. Even the word "compose" when used in regards to written language is also synonymous with "write". — kikichugirl ^speak up! 05:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Considering the other children of Category:Writers by format, it seems sensible to keep songwriters in as well. I know my argument is WP:OTHERSTUFF but I think it makes sense because songwriting is another format of writing and the category was clearly meant to be diverse. As Kikichugirl says above, writing song lyrics is essentially the same as writing poetry, and that poetry constitutes writing is hardly contested. ekips39 06:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

No wait, I didn't think this through. If 'songwriting' includes composition of music, no, it makes no sense to include this category in Writers by format. However, if it's limited to writing lyrics, yes, keep it there. Now which one is it? ekips39 06:13, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

There is a separate Category:Composers cat scheme for composition. Aboutmovies (talk) 06:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

That's the point. See Category:Author and Category:Authors. This category is for people who write prose and songwriters may only compose music and not provide lyrics. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:04, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Does it matter? Seriously, unless you just remember the music or the lyrics, then these things have to be written down (or typed). There's no way around that. Songwriters are simply writers in the genre of music, and there's nothing wrong with that. You make it sound as if musicians want no association with "writers". If they just play an instrument or sing, then yes, they are just musicians, but most people in life are far more than just one thing. Politicians are usually something else first; TV journalists are often also writers; actresses can be former models; film directors are also often screenwriters; etc. Aboutmovies (talk) 20:00, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• A composer writes music, a lyricist writes the words and a songwriter writes both words and music. There is a fair argument to remove the lyricists and composers from this category (they are not songwriters), but songwriters are writers of words... Cheers --Richhoncho (talk) 14:55, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

It absolutely matters. While composers writes music and lyricists writes the words, the way "songwriters" is used to describe either here and it's not clear. Consider the opposite. iTunes uses "composers" to describe this exact value. We should strive for clarity, but can't since Category:Composers has been coopted by the classical music project to mean something else quite specific. That leaves this category to be the equivalent for popular music. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:01, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I have just removed one composer from the category - if there are more feel free to remove. Does that solve the problem? --Richhoncho (talk) 16:02, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm clearly not expressing myself well. The problem I see is that writers of music, whether composers of music or lyricists, should not be lumped into the same group as authors of novels, short stories and general poetry. They are artists of separate fields and placing them all into the same bucket does each group a disservice. We would not musical artists, another euphemism for this class of individuals, under the same category as visual artsists: painters, sculpters, potters, basketweavers and the like. I don't understand why these two categories have been conflated like this. Removing individuals from the category doesn't solve the problem.

We need separate categories for authors, visual artists and musicians. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:32, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Songwriters are, inter alia, "writers" and as such the category belongs in the writers category as much as copywriters and speechwriters. I don't see any need to remove from "writers by format." I think this discussion belongs on that category. Cheers. --Richhoncho (talk) 09:46, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Songwriters are also "artists" and as such the category belongs in the artists category as well. In fact, they should be their own category not subsumed by any other. Cheers. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:09, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

No, some songwriters are not performers or artists. Irving Berlin and Tim Rice, for starters. --Richhoncho (talk) 21:33, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

I have seen film footage of Berlin performing. Rice is both a lyricist and author, not a songwriter. Care to play this game further? Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:23, 27 December 2014 (UTC)