Category talk:Religious perspectives on Muhammad

Reverts by Doc Tropics

So I just noticed that Doc Tropics (talk · contribs) has reverted my categorization of the following articles into Category:Perspectives on Muhammad:

• Medieval Christian views on Muhammad (here).
• Judaism's views on Muhammad (here)
• Criticism of Muhammad (here)

with the note: "not sure about the point of this category, not sure it's a good idea. please discuss". First of all, the reason is not clear to me at all, and I don't see any discussion on any of the talk pages as to why he thinks it's a bad category. For the record, the new category was based on Category:Perspectives on Jesus which falls under Category:Jesus. I also added Muhammad in Islam to Category:Perspectives on Muhammad before noticing the reverts. Al-Andalusi (talk) 17:56, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Given how much attention these articles get, it seems imprudent to make such sweeping changes without discussion first. Can you please explain the specific point of this category? Why do you see a need for this as a separate (and apparently, overriding) category? How exactly are we to distinguish between "Muhammad" and "Perspectives on Muhammad"? There seems to be an implication that the former category is factual while the later is merely opinion. How do you suggest we differentiate between the two? There are a large number of active editors involved in these articles; please allow for some discussion and seek consensus before introducing new categories and applying them to articles that have generated so much controversy already. Thanks, Doc Tropics 18:13, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I think you're over-thinking it. How come no one, including yourself, has objected to Category:Perspectives on Jesus, which includes Jesus in Christianity, Judaism's view of Jesus and Criticism of Jesus ? Al-Andalusi (talk) 18:18, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

In other words....you're not willing to discuss or justify any of your actions? And please don't try forcing me to edit pages that I'm not interested in, this is a volunteer project. Doc Tropics 19:02, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Justify what exactly ? I consider the category to be non-controversial. You claimed that it was, however anyone can find your claim not convincing given the existence of the similar Category:Perspectives on Jesus. Besides, the word "Perspectives" is as neutral as it can get, so I don't know where you got the impression that it differentiates between facts/opinions. I'm restoring the category to the listed pages and if you insist, then request the deletion of the category, rather than removing the category from the article so more knowledgeable and consistent users can voice their opinions. Al-Andalusi (talk) 20:04, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

No. Read WP:BRD. Doc Tropics 20:37, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request (Reason for category creation):

I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on Category:Perspectives on Muhammad and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes.

Thank you for requesting a third opinion before this discussion got any more heated. As I see the issue, it seems that Al-Andalusi (t c) created this category as a parallel to another category which exists to cover another religious figure of arguably similar prominence. Doc Tropics (t c) objects, asking for an explanation of why Al-Andalusi believes the category is necessary. My opinion is that Doc Tropics has a reasonable question -- just because WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS doesn't mean that all possible parallel categories to Category:Perspectives on Jesus are automatically appropriate. That being said, unless a category is inherently offensive or otherwise violates policy, I would think that the best way to discuss the appropriateness of the category would be on the category's talk page or by taking it to CfD -- not just reverting the addition. The category's been created; it can't just disappear by undoing it -- at some point, deletion policy will have to come into play if you (Doc Tropics) don't agree with its existence. I encourage you both to have an honest discussion, here, about why the category was created (i.e. what purpose it serves and if there are enough articles to populate it sufficiently), and whether it should be continued. I would ask you (Al-Andalusi) to be a bit more specific as to what you would like this category to achieve. If you cannot reach consensus here, I suggest you take it to CFD, to avoid starting an edit war about adding and reverting the category on various articles.——Darkwind (talk) 04:01, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time. As you correctly noted, the category was created to parallel the existing Category:Perspectives on Jesus. Why do I beleive this category is necessary: First, it was created as part of an ongoing effort to clean up the parent category Category:Muhammad, which was seriously under-categorized due to the lack of even the very basic categories. Secondly, it is much more convenient and accessible (to readers and editors alike) to have all articles that describe particular views of the same person, in this case Muhammad, placed into one meaningful category, which also happens to be consistent with the classification used for Jesus. Finally, there are enough articles that would populate and thus justify the need for the category: Medieval Christian views on Muhammad, Judaism's views on Muhammad, Muhammad in Islam, Criticism of Muhammad and optionally Mormonism and Islam#Muhammad and Joseph Smith. Al-Andalusi (talk) 04:51, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

@ Darkwind: Thank you for your time and effort, both are appreciated. Your input was thoughtful, honest, and neutral....everything that a 3O should be.

@ AA, thanks for finally explaining your actions; a reasonable explanation was most of what I wanted. However, there are a number of other editors who regularly participate on the affected pages; I really don't think it unreasonable to allow them a chance to participate in this discussion. Since AA dropped notices on the article talkpages (and did a little private canvassing as well), I expect there will be responses coming in soon. While I am not inherently opposed to the new category, I don't think it should be implemented single-handedly, without at least some level of support. One point I am still not clear on: Since almost all information about Muhammad is essentially someone's perspective, which articles, besides the main biography Muhammad, would remain in category "Muhammad"? It seems like the main cat. will be "orphaned" in a way since it could conceivably be emptied of all but 1 article. Doc Tropics 14:58, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't see that any article that narrates him (someone's perspective) should be under this category, as that's what Category:Muhammad is for. All historical figures can be place in such a category this way, so avoiding that will fix your 1 article concern. Also, I'd like to know the little private canvassing if possible, to be able to determine which views came from where. Thanks... ~ AdvertAdam ^talk 19:39, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I'd just say to avoid the last one (the section). We definitely can't look at Category:Perspectives on Jesus as a guideline or justification, but might be an example to build our views upon. I think we should also add the Category:Films about Muhammad sub too, IMO. Although, the category might use a sentence of clarification. ~ AdvertAdam ^talk 19:39, 17 August 2011 (UTC)