Category talk:Fictional exorcists

Re: Parent categories

@AHI-3000: I believe that individual fictional exorcists can be demon or ghost hunters. However, as a whole, they should not be categorized as such, as they do not all "hunt" down demons and ghosts. Some exorcists may just respond to someone making a request of them, without doing any "hunting". They should be in both categories if they hunt down and exorcise demons/ghosts.

Additionally, not all exorcists are "paranormal investigators". This is also a case of "they should be in both categories". A priest who simply exorcises demons does not necessarily investigate why and how they are there. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 00:09, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I should also add this applies in reverse too. Not all demon hunters use religious rites, so they are not all exorcists either. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 00:12, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I see what you mean, but as a general rule many if not most exorcist characters' primary role in fictional works is to combat evil spirits by removing them from possessed people or haunted houses, which is why I think the demon/ghost hunter categories are justified for them. AHI-3000 (talk) 00:38, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

"as a general rule many if not most exorcist characters" is the operative here. I think we need to have a higher threshhold than "many" for a general rule. Categories are supposed to capture defining features, so I think that the general rule should at minimum be "most if not all". Mason (talk) 19:13, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Smasongarrison: and @Zxcvbnm: I still stand by my point that Category:Fictional exorcists is a subtype of Category:Fictional demon hunters and perhaps Category:Fictional ghost hunters too. The exorcist character archetype in supernatural fiction is typically specialized in getting rid of evil spirits. Do you have any other arguments to dispute that? AHI-3000 (talk) 03:57, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

For context, the conversation continued here: User talk:AHI-3000#Reverting edits at Category:Fictional exorcists ^SMason_Garrison 03:59, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

And for the record, I would need citations to back that up because exorcists don't have to be "hunters". ^SMason_Garrison 04:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay, so you (AHI) want proof. Here's the link to the exorcism article in Britannica: [1]

It states that even Jesus was an exorcist. Did Jesus specifically hunt down demons as a job? If not, then all exorcists, whether real or fictional, cannot be demon hunters. Per WP:SUBCAT, if logical membership of one category implies logical membership of a second (an is-a relationship), then the first category should be made a subcategory (directly or indirectly) of the second. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 04:01, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

This category is about fictional characters who are exorcists, and most of the time they're in a setting where demons are a very real presence, and an exorcist in such stories is typically portrayed as a professional who specializes in banishing, capturing or destroying evil spirits. AHI-3000 (talk) 04:05, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Again, I don't find your arguments convincing. I don't see this as a parent. You've still not provided any sources or any compelling arguments. If you didn't try to brute force your way thru by edit waring, I suspect we'd both be more receptive. But I don't see if, and you've provided no sources showing that demon huntering is a defining feature for the category. ^SMason_Garrison 04:07, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not like your own subjective viewpoint is anymore accurate than mine. AHI-3000 (talk) 06:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Maybe, but you're the one forcing your changes onto the category. We aren't. If you are equally unable to prove you are right, then the changes should not be made. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 10:16, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Is there not a strong correlation or at least relationship between the concepts of exorcising and hunting demons? AHI-3000 (talk) 07:07, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

There may be a relationship, but you've presented no evidence that makes the case that there's a parent relationship. I echo what @Zxcvbnm has said. You've not made a compelling case for why the change should be made. I've asked you to provide sources. You haven't. It is a reasonable request. ^SMason_Garrison 22:06, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

How do you define "hunters" in this context? AHI-3000 (talk) 04:02, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

A "hunter" typically means you search for something. Exorcism does not imply searching for anything, only having the power to banish evil. Someone can be a demon hunter and exorcist. But an exorcist does not necessarily track down demons. A lot of times they have to be told who to do the ritual on. This is just common sense here. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 04:17, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

"Monster hunter" in fiction means more generally someone who fights with or neutralizes monsters. AHI-3000 (talk) 06:48, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@Dimadick: What do you think about this? Is it appropriate to categorize Category:Fictional exorcists as a subcategory of Category:Fictional demon hunters or Category:Fictional ghost hunters? AHI-3000 (talk) 07:27, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I have seen depictions of fictional exorcists which are effectively demon hunters. I am not certain if there have been depictions of characters attempting to exorcise ghosts. Dimadick (talk) 07:34, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I'm not done with this yet. @Zxcvbnm:, @Smasongarrison:, @Dimadick:. I still stand by my position that most if not all fictional characters who are exorcists are also hunters of demons and ghosts, unless the story has nothing supernatural about it. I don't agree with this arbitrary idea that there isn't significant overlap here. AHI-3000 (talk) 01:59, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

The definition of exorcising is "to expel an evil spirit". It says nothing about hunting down the evil spirits. An exorcist can be called without them having to hunt anything. Ctrl+F in Exorcism brings up no mention of hunting in the article either. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 02:09, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

As I said before "I don't find your arguments convincing. I don't see this as a parent. You've still not provided any sources or any compelling arguments. If you didn't try to brute force your way thru by edit waring, I suspect we'd both be more receptive. But I don't see if, and you've provided no sources showing that demon huntering is a defining feature for the category." ^SMason_Garrison 03:04, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Outside Wikipedia, I have seen my share of ghost stories in film, television, and literary works. With the exception of a few Japanese horror films involving Buddhist priests, I have not noticed any characters trying to exorcise ghosts. The typical story either involves somehow trapping/sealing the ghost in an item or specific area, or compelling the ghost to enter the afterlife and meets its fate. With demon-related stories involving spirit possession, some kind of exorcism is often attempted. The difference is that demons are nearly always depicted as malevolent or hostile, while ghosts can be depicted as benevolent, malevolent, neutral, or even indifferent to other characters, depending on the story and setting. Dimadick (talk) 03:58, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

While I don't want to be prescriptive about what people should and shouldn't be doing on Wikipedia, I also think this disagreement would be cleared up pretty quickly if AHI-3000 actually went and tried to improve demon hunter, assuming it's notable. If they found a source that proved that exorcists were demon hunters, they could point to it and say "ha, you're wrong". If they found a source that proved they weren't, they'd be forced to confront the fact that they were wrong. Right now though, it's purely based on hearsay. And if "demon hunter" is non-notable, there shouldn't be a category for it at all, most likely. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 13:37, 15 December 2024 (UTC)