Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

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Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following:

All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction.

The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may:

ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email.

Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template.

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Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction

An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies:

The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change,^[a] or is no longer an administrator;^[b] or
The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and:
- the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
- the restriction was an indefinite block.

A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction:

a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN,
a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA.

Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped.

Standard of review
On community review

Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.

On Arbitration Committee review

Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

^ The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^ This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

Appeals by sanctioned editors

Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:

ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org).

Modifications by administrators

No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.

Information for administrators processing requests

Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.

A couple of reminders:

Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request.
When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X".
Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Wikipedia and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Wikipedia policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it.
More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated.

Closing a thread:

Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days.
Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct.
You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages.
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging

Appeal declined. There's no "clear and substantial consensus" of uninvolved admins to grant the appeal. T. Canens (talk) 00:42, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: TheTimesAreAChanging (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:13, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: "TheTimesAreAChanging placed on indefinite probation in the topic area for refusal to gain consensus before making controversial edits."

Administrator imposing the sanction: Coffee (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: [1]

Statement by TheTimesAreAChanging

I made a single normal edit to List of Trump–Russia dossier allegations, which I believe was mandated by BLP, at 19:54, 25 January 2018, after previously broaching the idea two days earlier and getting qualified support from My very best wishes. BullRangifer, the creator of the article and who has a very different perspective on these matters than I do, thanked me for my edit, later defending it on the talk page. The article was not under DS at the time; if it had been, I probably would have been less collaborative, as there were several paragraphs of "Commentary" (e.g., here) that I might have "challenged." (If possible—creating a new article without such sanctions is obviously a way to bypass them and force content through, if the content is considered "long-standing" by the time the sanctions are in force.) Yet SPECIFICO, who had no problem with the several paragraphs of opinion commentary, reverted my addition of the widely-reported testimony of Trump's longtime bodyguard, Keith Schiller, stating that "Statement of Trump's denial is sufficient." I disagreed, so I made a single normal revert at 07:19, 26 January. (To date, none of the editors in the ensuing discussion have agreed with SPECIFICO.) Ten hours later, after SPECIFICO inaccurately told Coffee that I had violated the article's non-existent DS at 17:39, Coffee added the template (including his brand-new "civility" requirement) at 17:43 and logged it at 17:45. While acknowledging that "I couldn't do more as the page restrictions hadn't been added to that article yet," Coffee still decided to place me on indefinite probation for violating the DS, which he apparently considered to take effect retroactively. ~~I think this sanction is just another example of Coffee's heavy-handed and erratic behavior as an administrator, and would like to see it reviewed and revoked.~~TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:13, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Floquenbeam, I am 99% certain that DS were not in effect at the time of my edit, and I looked carefully. Once the talk page has been tagged, I believe that the warning remains visible on earlier revisions of the talk page, but that does not mean that the warning was actually there the whole time. That's why I included Coffee's confirmation that "the page restrictions hadn't been added to that article yet," as well as the relevant log, which states: "List of Trump–Russia dossier allegations placed under indefinite 1RR/consensus/civility required restriction."TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:11, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Floquenbeam, I honestly did not see that. I've stricken my comment above.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:25, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

When SPECIFICO violated Discretionary Sanctions at Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections ([2], [3]), I warned her and she self-reverted. When I (inadvertently) violated Discretionary Sanctions (that had not been logged, with no edit notice), I returned to Wikipedia and suddenly found that SPECIFICO had reported me directly to Coffee and I had already been sanctioned, with no opportunity to respond. How is this sanction anything but punitive?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mandruss, this comment really misses the mark. No, I didn't check the log, but I obviously wouldn't have made the edit if there had been an edit notice.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the talk page as of the time of my revert: [4] I had not edited it, and there was not yet any discussion of the disputed content. Coffee could have easily asked me to self-revert before immediately imposing a new hard-to-understand restriction.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:26, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

SPECIFICO and Volunteer Marek continue to misrepresent Coffee's stated rationale for the "probation" restriction, which is not that I violated any DS (none were logged for that page), but rather that I failed to preemptively go beyond the requirements of DS in seeking consensus before making any potentially controversial edits. By that standard, all of us could arbitrarily be put under "probation." Some admins say that, in fact, all of us already are under informal probation by virtue of editing in an area subject to DS, but—contrary to SPECIFICO's latest comment—I am deeply concerned that this "probation" is poorly understood and will probably be used against me in some arbitrary way at a later date even if it does not have any immediate effect. I also have grave concerns that Coffee's "Consensus Required" restriction itself outlaws normal BRD and has created a chilling effect in this topic area, and that his newly-invented "civility" restriction will further compound the problem.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:54, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Coffee

Trying to go to sleep but I have to correct what is being misrepresented here: The sanction was for a violation of overall WP:ARBAP2's standards of conduct. It was done under authority of WP:ARBAPDS which allow administrators the ability to apply sanctions at their discretion to anyone editing in the topic area. As this user was already made aware of the DS existing in the topic area, the sanction was made in full validity. It was not a sanction based on page restrictions. And my sanctioning of the article, after realizing it wasn't during the review I made, had nothing to do with the probation sanction placed on this user. This is made extremely clear in the sanction notice, and I feel this user is being obtuse. I also agree that this user has already violated the probation sanction (by the comments on their talk page), and I would personally levy a 24 hour block for such conduct. I however really, really need rest after today's events (some of you are aware of) and therefore will not be conducting that action. This is all I will state here for now. Good night/day folks. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 21:23, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'll reiterate for some who are confused on this: The probation restriction is explained in detail at WP:EDR, which is the list of restrictions I'm permitted to use (along with blocks) per my discretion in the topic area, as per WP:ARBAPDS. This sanction is merely more of a severe warning, with one additional caveat: it states that regardless if they edit an article with a direct editnotice on it, with the consensus restriction required, they are not allowed to violated our WP:CONSENSUS or WP:BRD policy in any area of the AP2 topic area. This is simply a way to attempt to prevent disruption, without levying an actual topic ban or a full editing restriction on the user in all topic areas. The full explanation of this is found at our policy: WP:PROBATION: The user on probation may be banned from pages that they edit in a certain way (usually disruptively) by an uninvolved administrator. Probation is usually used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 12:43, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Seraphimblade: See above for further reasoning on why I think this may actually benefit editing in the topic area. Interested to hear your thoughts. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 13:00, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Lankiveil and Seraphimblade: See this note above and my comments in the appeal below this one regarding this matter. Pinging to keep you both in the loop here.

— Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:34, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein: Your second comment here is currently in violation of the Arbitration Committee's expectations of administrators in dealing on this noticeboard: "Administrators wishing to dismiss an enforcement request should act cautiously and be especially mindful that their actions do not give the impression that they are second-guessing the Arbitration Committee or obstructing the enforcement of their decisions." - I highly suggest you retract it. Or that whomever closes this completely disregards the remark. We are not here to question or comment on ArbCom's decisions, or their decided ways of dealing with conduct issues. All administrators commenting here should have known this before making any statements here whatsoever. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:41, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MrX

TheTimesAreAChanging unambiguously violated the page restriction prohibiting reinstatement of any challenged (via reversion) edits without obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article. As surprised that I am that he received the lightest possible sanction, I'm actually shocked that he would have the audacity to appeal it.

In my opinion, ~~the sanction should be increased to a topic ban for blatantly abusing process by Wikilawyering and wasting editors time.~~- Mr X 🖋 20:28, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Floquenbeam: Yes, I did overlook that the edit notice was placed after the fact. That does make the situation a bit more ambiguous. However, TheTimesAreAChanging reverted without consulting the talk page which does not bode well in his favor.- Mr X 🖋 21:03, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

TTAAC wasn't sanctioned for violating an editing restriction; he was sanctioned for "repeated refusal to gain consensus before making controversial edits in the topic area." It is well within an admin's authority to place such a sanction on an editor, so the appeal is completely without merit.- Mr X 🖋 21:27, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SPECIFICO

ToTTAAC: Please don't misrepresent my actions by stating the article was not under the Consensus DS at the time you violated it. The history of the talk page clearly shows the DS in effect at that time. [5] Coffee later updated it to add the Civility Requirement. Please withdraw this appeal and if you edit according to policy you will have no further concerns.

Frankly, given TTAAC's previous TBAN, his socking to evade the ban (necessitating in a block on top of the ban [6] and then his quickly-broken assurances that prompted Sandstein to reinstate him, "escalating sanctions" would suggest that a new TBAN would not be unexpected. It's therefore hard to see any problem with the probation imposed by Coffee. SPECIFICO talk 20:34, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Now I just saw that TTAAC is broadcasting the same disparagement of me and Coffee on the article talk page. Given that he just acknowledged awareness of the Civility Requirement, it seems that a new, second, violation of the DS has occurred as well as a violation of his Probation sanction. [7]

@MjolnirPants and MrX: The new DS template added the Civility Restriction replacing the former template that already included the Consensus Restriction. [8] The Consensus Restriction was in effect at the time of the violation, plainly visible both at the time of the edit and at the time he denied and removed my request on his talk page that he undo the violation. SPECIFICO talk 21:33, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@DHeyward: I meant to ping you, not MP above. Sorry. You appear to have repeated TTAAC's misrepresentation of the Consensus Required sanction on that page when he made the offending edit. SPECIFICO talk 23:55, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am not understanding TTAAC's basis for keeping this appeal open. Here [9] he concedes that he violated the Consensus Required sanction. He says "why wasn't I warned and asked to self-revert?" But here, I warned him six hours before he was sanctioned and asked him to self revert. And his response was to deny the violation, even after he was sanctioned: [10] It's pretty simple and for those who are not familiar with the difficulties of editing American Politics, this is an example of how much time can be wasted denying, discussing, and proving the obvious, all still apparently with no resolution. TTAAC, why not just withdraw the appeal. What basis is their for the appeal given the facts? SPECIFICO talk 00:21, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein: RE: Probation - Types of Sanctions and WP:PROBATION. I can understand that you disagree with the particular sanction, but the violation of DS is clear and it's part of a long-term pattern of abuse. So I suggest that the solution, if you disapprove of the Probation sanction, would be to apply one you feel would be more suitable and effective. SPECIFICO talk 14:55, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@My very best wishes: Please see immediately above. SPECIFICO talk 17:42, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@My very best wishes: OK, you don't think that WP:PROBATION is meaningful. Is it the purpose of an appeal at this page to second-guess site norms? This is not even the claim the appellant makes. He seems to be going for "I am not actually a disruptive editor" -- i.e. that there's been an error of fact. But nobody's buying that one. So why not propose a different sanction. Sanctions are supposed to be escalating for repeat violations. His last one was an indefinite TBAN he slithered out of. He's wasted a lot of community time since then, routinely disparaging other editors (not least yourself) and failing to engage in collaborative editing. Do you suggest we just wait for the next reunion to rehash the same behaviors next time? SPECIFICO talk 18:40, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the Admin comments don't appear to focus on the theory of this appeal or the powers of Admins in AE appeals. They read more like box seats at a command performance of ANI. TTAAC has not complained about the particular sanction that Coffee imposed. TTAAC has denied the violation. After all the trouble taken to refute this deflection, does any Admin still believe it's true? So we have an infraction, and in the case of this editor it's one of dozens that have been documented here over the course of the past +/- 16 months. Many of the editors who went to the trouble of providing diffs in those past cases, including the ones that resulted in sanctions, may well have concluded that there's no willingness to enforce DS, let alone escalating blocks, and so the editors with memory of all the bad behavior simply move on. I certainly am not going to waste a bright sunny day dredging up the history of this sad dysfunction and disruption. If you don't like the particular sanction, propose a more effective one. Which Admin is going to waste his or her time in the future exercising discretion when it's only a gateway to the Royal ANI here that AE has become? Otherwise, an AP3 Arbcom case will come sooner or later and what a regrettable outcome that will have been! SPECIFICO talk 18:08, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As so often happens at these AE threads, the appellant, given enough time, is hoisted with his own petard. In this diff [11] TTAAC says contrary to SPECIFICO's latest comment — I am deeply concerned that this "probation" is poorly understood and will probably be used against me. Now first off, he misrepresents what I wrote (as can be verified from that link). I said that he has not presented any complaint about WP:PROBATION as a theory that supports vacating his sanction. But he (either incompetently or disingenuously) states that his "deep concern" means I somehow misrepresented his unstated inner concerns. This may look like nitpicking. Fine, he realized that after my post he hadn't a leg to stand on so he wanted to add to the file. Maybe -- we don't know. But my reason for pointing this out is that TTAAC in numerous talk page posts and many edit summaries on many articles, will include utterly irrelevant personal remarks (almost always disparaging ones) that add nothing to the discussion or to the article text we're all trying to improve. Admins, please look at TTAAC's post. It's typical of so much of his participation. His personal remark about me is entirely gratuitous. But it is an instructive example of his behavior. The personalized remark about me adds nothing to the meaning or significance of his message. And yet, TTAC does this over and over, even after previous AE sanctions -- sanctions after which a rational adjustment in style and tone could well have been expected. And never mind the irony that he's concerned about the harm that might come to him due to false aspersions that could be "used against" him -- even concerning a violation that numerous editors have researched and documented here. SPECIFICO talk 23:45, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Steve Quinn

On the article's talk page, several editors have indeed noted that remedies and sanctions were in place when TTAC restored the material (without consensus):

SPECIFICO [12], [13];
Seemingly inderectly by Atsme [14],
Volunteer Marek [15],
Galobtter [16],
Mandruss [17]] (It was more of question while supplying a diff showing sanctions were previously in place [18]), Then stating that "the remedies and DS were in place as of four days ago" [19]
And most recently, myself, apparently after this appeal had already started [20].

So, in a manner of speaking, this was an opportunity for TTAC to undo their edit rather seek an appeal. As was noted below, this is now an opportunity to undo the edit and withdraw the appeal, or simply withdraw the appeal and save time. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 06:14, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I meant, it seems there was an opportunity for TTAC to undo their edit, and thereby collaboratively participate, before an Admin felt the need to sanction him/her. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 06:32, 27 January 2018 (UTC)`[reply]

The focus here is not BRD. The focus here is editing according to consensus rules. Anyone who has edited on WP:ARBAP2 pages for any reasonable length of time knows about this. It seems all the non-admins on this page are experienced in the WP:ARBAP2 area. And in this instance there were warnings from other editors that went unheeded. I also wish to commend Coffee for watching this area in order to keep the peace in a forthright and reasonable manner. Coffee seems to have explained what probation is supposed to be. And I think this is better than an outright topic ban or a block, imho. I don't know what other option there is? imho. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 02:58, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Volunteer Marek

With regard to TTAAC's action I don't think there is any doubt that they violated the DS. TTAAC is also quite aware of how this works, as they've been sanctioned for this before, they've brought reports against others, they've commented widely on DS in this topic area, etc. There's basically no way they did not know they were breaking a DS.

So TTAC broke DS. It looks to me like User:Coffee was trying to be nice about it. I'm guessing because he previously caught some slack for being heavy handed (including from me). So he imposed the "probation" instead of an outright topic ban, probably hoping that'd result in less controversy. But sometimes, with some people... you give an inch, they try to take a mile. That's what's going on with this appeal.

In my understanding a "probation" is essentially a "soft" topic ban from a particular article. By that I mean that the user is not outright banned from an article, and may continue to edit it, but at any time, if any uninvolved admin thinks they're not acting in good faith, then the ban hammer comes down. It's basically a "continue to edit this article at your own risk" kind of restriction.

I have no idea who came up with this. I don't like it. But that's just my view, and this is indeed one of the proscribed remedies over at WP:EDR, so it was perfectly fine for Coffee to use it. And regardless in this particular case, some kind of sanction was warranted, and Coffee, rather than being criticized should be commended for trying to be diplomatic and "soft". But as always on Wikipedia, no good deed...

Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Let me also suggest that IF you're going to grant this appeal (whether outright, or replace the probation with a straight up topic ban) then please, somebody go and make the necessary changes to WP:EDR so this web of bureaucratic policies and sanctions doesn't get even more discombobulated.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:21, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by JFG

Oh God such wikilawyering! Cut the drama, vacate the sanction, and trout SPECIFICO for their propension to snitch on fellow editors. — JFG ^talk 11:24, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Seraphim System

Comment I don't think our policies are meant to be combed through to find obscure and rarely cited sections - part of applying and interpreting them is following community norms and customs. For these rules to be effective as deterrents they need to be predictable and comprehensible, based on predictable standards of enforcement that have been developed in community discussions about their applications. My understanding of how a situation like this would usually be handled is that an editor would be formally warned, and then brought to AE where an appropriate article ban or topic ban would be applied in a transparent way after a discussion. I know discretionary sanctions allow an admin to act alone, procedurally, but that doesn't make it a good idea. And I don't think it is necessary here, in fact I have never seen this "probation" sanction used before. I also expect we are going to see additional issues from this new civility restriction. I would support reversing this sanction and issuing a formal warning, as they largely seem to serve the same purpose.Seraphim System ^(talk) 04:35, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So effectively, the user has been placed on notice that they can be article banned at an administrator's discretion in a DS area where they are already on notice due to DS - the policy about discretionary sanctions clearly states that they must be "necessary and proportionate for the smooth running of the project." - We have been discussing for two days whether a sanction with no effect was procedurally correct. Why?
I think there may be an underlying conduct issue here but am dismayed that instead of presenting the evidence at AE, editors have started personally requesting intervention from Coffee on her talk page [21]. The sanctioning admin has also made unsolicited public statements about an involved editor supporting the block and defending the sanction here: No one ever gives two shits about my emotions here, and practically no one realizes I'm capable of change. Volunteer Marek is the only person I can truly point to who gave me the opportunity to improve, and we've had a decent working relationship ever since. [22].
I am not involved in the topic area, but I don't think any of the editors in this topic area have clean hands. This is something that is taken into consideration during AE discussions. The policy says "Administrators do not need explicit consensus to enforce arbitration decisions and can always act unilaterally. However, when the case is not clear-cut they are encouraged, before acting, to seek input from their colleagues at arbitration enforcement." - I am concerned this pattern of enforcement will have a chilling effect on DS topic areas. Seraphim System ^(talk) 23:39, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: This was moved here by Coffee with this edit summary [23] you are very much involved in topic area after receiving an upheld DS block from me which has altered the structure of the discussion by moving a previously uncontested comment from two days ago [24] - I have never edited this article, I am not involved in this dispute, and I don't think that receiving a DS block from Coffee in another topic area makes be "very much involved in topic area". I have previously participated in this RfC Talk:Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections/Archive_17#RfC:_Should_the_article_include_Dan_Goodin's_criticism_of_the_DHS_Joint_Analysis_Report? which informed my comment that there is questionable conduct in this topic area all around, and that I believe the ongoing and longstanding disputes between these editors are complex/controversial enough that clear evidence should be presented via the complaint process and the determination of appropriate sanctions should be made by consensus - (in this case some admins have proposed alternate sanctions [25] [26]) - instead of by editors posting requests to Coffee's talk page. Seraphim System ^(talk) 00:33, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging

I think this sanction is just another example of Coffee's heavy-handed and erratic behavior as an administrator, and would like to see it reviewed and revoked. @TheTimesAreAChanging:I strongly suggest you strike or remove this bit. Not only is it not helpful, it's a personal attack not backed up by evidence. And no, I'm not suggesting you find evidence as that would only exacerbate other issues. Please, just strike or remove this bit (I'll remove this comment as well, if you do). Even if Coffee is the things you allege, that doesn't prove your sanction was unjust; that still needs to be judged on its own merits. For what it's worth, I found the edit you gave a diff of to be perfectly fine, as well. I'd have supported it if I'd been involved at talk. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Floquenbeam: I found the following at WP:SANCTIONS:

Probation (supervised editing): The user on probation may be banned from pages that they edit in a certain way (usually disruptively) by an uninvolved administrator. Probation is usually used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior.

I read it to mean that uninvolved admins are free to "stalk" the sanctioned editors edits to that page and issue additional sanctions without further justification (possibly beyond a diff to the edit in question, and a short explanation of what's wrong with it). I agree that it seems to be the most lenient form of sanction, as a gung-ho admin could do the same thing without violating policy to any editor, in theory. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:02, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, I found the edit you gave a diff of to be perfectly fine, as well. With respect, it's not worth anything in this venue, as there is no such thing as a retroactive consensus. The only pertinent facts are: (1) Despite TheTimesAreAChanging's repeated claim, the remedies and DS were in effect at the time of their revert, and (2) the circumstances do not approach a consensus for the edit, by any interpretation I've ever seen in my ~18 months of heavy involvement at Donald Trump. It doesn't speak well for TTAAC that they even mention a "thank" as having an iota of relevance here; the remedies quite clearly state "must obtain consensus on the talk page". There is nothing particularly complicated about these restrictions, even for someone as limited as me. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

With respect, it's not worth anything in this venue, as there is no such thing as a retroactive consensus. I'm not suggesting that the appeal should be overturned because I think the edit was fine, I'm simply telling TTAAC that I would have defended his edit, even though I took issue with a part of his appeal statement. TTAAC and I are usually at opposite ends of similar discussions, and as such, it's worth pointing out those occasions on which we are in agreement. The idea here is to foster collaboration, not to undermine it, after all. Olive branches and the occasional compliment help with that. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:21, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@SPECIFICO: I haven't said anything about the timing of the restrictions. My comment about his edit was not meant to convey anything more than the knowledge that -had I been aware of the discussion of that edit- I'd have supported including it. See my response to Mandruss, above for more on that. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:55, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn. It's another case where we shouldn't be here. It's arguably a necessary edit as a BLP required NPOV presentation. Blanking would also be arguably necessary if sourced, exculpatory statements are not presented. The fact that page wasn't under sanction the entire time is just more grist. Remove "probation" as it's just a setup for any type of future complaint. It solves nothing and only provides an excuse for a flimsy future topic-ban. If anything, convert it to a "reminder." --DHeyward (talk) 21:16, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Floquenbeam:, it's my understanding that standard DS does not include "1RR/Consensus required" language. That is a page level restriction that is made on a case by case basis. There is no DS violation until page level restrictions are placed and logged. Coffee creates special templates for each page, I believe. --DHeyward (talk) 21:24, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This was the notice in place at the time of the violation. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:34, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone can place a template. Restrictions, however must be logged here[27]. I only see Today's entry for page level sanctions. --DHeyward (talk) 21:38, 26 January 2018 (UTC) Primefac see too. --DHeyward (talk) 21:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone can place a template, true, and I once tried to do so out of ignorance. It was promptly disputed and removed because, as the template message says, "An administrator has applied the restriction above to this article." And, iin fact, that template was placed by Amortias, an admin, as the page history clearly shows. Failure to log, if any, is a wikilawyering technicality, as editors cannot be expected to go check the log before taking action. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:42, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's required to be logged. And yes, I do check the logs when I see page restrictions. Logging it is part of the notice requirements and spelled out in the DS ArbCom ruling. And yes, it's ridiculous but being brought to AE on dotted i/crossed t violations under scrupulous rules lawyering should require scrupulous adherence. It's not under page level sanctions unless logged. @Floquenbeam: --DHeyward (talk) 21:52, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Editing restrictions have to be logged, but any admin can sanction any editor editing in the American politics subject area, provided that they are aware that discretionary sanctions are in force for the area of conflict. See WP:AC/DS. You seem not to grasp that. - Mr X 🖋 21:56, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

TTAAC has not stated that they checked the log, couldn't find the log entry, and therefore ignored the template. We can safely assume that is not what happened. Thus your argument has no bearing on the issue of TTAAC's actions, and I repeat the word wikilawyering. It's the old story ending with "...and besides, I don't have a dog." ―Mandruss ☎ 22:00, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

He wasn't sanctioned for violating an editing restriction. He was sanctioned for or his repeated refusal to gain consensus before making controversial edits in the topic area. Admins are given discretion for imposing such sanctions, so this appeal lacks merit. If this were a new editor who had just wandered into a Trump article, I would recommend giving a pass for not seeing the talk page notice. That is not the case here.- Mr X 🖋 21:47, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Given that this is not a violation of the page restriction, but a general editor restriction, I am concerned that Coffee viewed TTAC's talk page comments as a probation violation and "blockable" with no diffs and nothing I see as obvious. I am very concerned that this condition will be abused. Everyone seemed to believe this was a page level violation being enforced but now it's not so there is definitely a clarity and communication issue. --DHeyward (talk) 22:11, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Floquenbeam: This is TTAC's only edit to their talk page[28] in 10 days. Blockable probation violation? --DHeyward (talk) 22:25, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@TheTimesAreAChanging: I'm astounded that you are still claiming that there was no notice in place. I have already linked to it, I know you saw the link, and you are beginning to bend my AGF. Here it is again: [29] ―Mandruss ☎ 22:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Mandruss:That's the talk page notice, the actual editnotice is here: Template:Editnotices/Page/List_of_Trump–Russia_dossier_allegations. It appears when you try to edit the page. But I agree that the argument that TTAAC was unaware of that condition is untenable. He scrolled past notification every time he edited the talk page. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:22, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@TheTimesAreAChanging: and there was not yet any discussion of the disputed content. The template says: "any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)". NOT "any edits that have been challenged (via talk page discussion)". Your edit became a challenged edit immediately upon the first revert of it. It seems to me the problem is your unwillingness to read and understand clearly stated restrictions. Editors who are not willing to do that shouldn't be editing articles under the restrictions. One mistake can be forgiven if you're new to the restrictions (are you?), but, after all this discussion you still haven't read, understood, and resolved to observe the restrictions, let alone withdrawn this appeal of a very lenient slap-on-wrist sanction. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Can I draw the admin's attention to the personal attack against Coffee that makes up the latter part of the origina filing? I quoted it at the very top of this section. I've asked TTAAC to strike or remove it, but gotten no response. Would one of you (@Floquenbeam and Primefac:) please at least make the same request for striking it, or redact it yourself? It's really unnecessary, it's inflammatory, and it's petty. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:04, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest to grant this appeal per arguments by Sandstein. This is yet another unilaterally invented and unhelpful type of editing restriction that should never be used. P.S. I am not telling that editing by this user was fine. I am only saying such "editing restriction" is meaningless and should never be used. My very best wishes (talk) 17:36, 27 January 2018 (UTC) It seems that type of "restriction" indeed exists. Why? It does not restrict anyone from doing anything. My very best wishes (talk) 03:55, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You have me totally confused. Are you talking about the restrictions or the sanction? The sanction you linked (probation) does in fact restrict someone from doing something, as it clearly states. That does not make it a "restriction" as the term is being used here; we are referring to the editing restrictions in the remedies template. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:26, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Restricts from doing what? It tells "Probation is used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior." The contributor does not receive any topic ban. I checked if "probation" was ever issued to anyone as an editing restriction during last two years and found only a couple of cases when someone issued a "probation" and an editing restriction (1RR or a topic ban). Otherwise, it does not make any sense. My very best wishes (talk) 04:36, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is a time and place to discuss things like that, and in the appeal of a sanction that follows the letter of the written rules is not it. Since that's an arb page I'm not even sure ordinary editors have much say in the matter, anyway. SS speaks below of "combing through" said rules; I call it knowing the rules better than most admins and that's something to be credited, not criticized. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:04, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

What is "indefinite probation"? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:24, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@MrX: But was that restriction in place when the edit was made? If I'm reading timestamps right, it was added afterwards? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:31, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Answering my own question, it looks like the DS was already in place on the article, based on the talk page notice, but Coffee just recently added the edit notice after TTAAC's edit. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:46, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Based on Primfac's comment, I have a 3rd question: is there any reason not to block for that edit instead? That's clearly within the topic area, and the idea that it was exempt because it was a BLP issue is not reasonable. I'm still curious about the first ~~two~~ questions, though, even if they might be moot. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:38, 26 January 2018 (UTC) Striking based on Primefac's strike... --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:50, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So to clarify after a multi-admin brainfart... DS were in place, albeit without an edit notice. While I still want to know what "indefinite probation" is, I find it hard to believe that this sanction should be undone. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:50, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@TheTimesAreAChanging: Looks like they were added on the 22nd: [30]. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:22, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@DHeyward: see diff immediately above in my reply to TTAAC. Article sanctions were apparently in place, just no edit notice. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Now I remember why I only edit WP:AE once every 3 months. The arcane rules make my head hurt. As I now understand it, the recent arbcom decision (see WP:ACN) says that page restrictions can't be enforced if there's no editnotice. However, Coffee has just pointed out above that it was a sanction under the general sanctions for this topic, for repeated addition of reverted info in this topic area. Not an article-level sanction. So the question for reviewing admins is: Is this editor probation an acceptable use of admin discretion based on the general American Politics sanctions. Everything else about timing of editnotice is a sidetrack. To answer that question, I'd say that since there are really no consequences to the sanction beyond heightened scrutiny, which was happening anyway due to previous topic ban, that the sanction is reasonable. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So... um... I find it hard to be sympathetic with the OP when they were topic-banned a fortnight ago from WP:ARBAPDS (which, for those living under a rock, is post-1932 politics), and (as I just found) had the appeal declined two days ago, so you shouldn't have been editing the page in the first place. I'm amazed you actually got away with that, so the fact that you're only on probation makes me think that Coffee was actually being lenient. Primefac (talk) 20:32, 26 January 2018 (UTC) [reply]
~~@MrX:, they already are ^ Primefac (talk) 20:36, 26 January 2018 (UTC)~~[reply]
I'm an idiot who can't read a timestamp (I think I need some sleep as well); the tban was last year. Still, you would think that someone who has been tbanned for this nonsense before would know about how to not get flagged for it again. I stick with my previous statement that I feel Coffee was being lenient with just "probation". Primefac (talk) 20:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@DHeyward:, you're kidding, right? Take a look at the page right before Coffee changed the notice - third notice, second bullet: Limit of one revert in 24 hours: This article is under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period). so... 1RR definitely holds. Additionally, there two arbs who edited the sanction template, which means that by SILENCE or other policy they approved of the language. Primefac (talk) 21:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To echo Floq's post above, I agree that the sanction is reasonable; if the OP stays within the bounds of ARBAPDS (because you cannot make the argument that they don't know about it, or that they won't look for DS's in the future) then there is no issue. Primefac (talk) 21:53, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@TheTimesAreAChanging:, I'm going to echo the above request to remove the personal attack/aspersions cast at Coffee re: his admin action history in the last sentence of your original post; not only is it inflammatory but we are not here to discuss their overall conduct as an administrator. Primefac (talk) 23:36, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Decline the appeal. The sanction is clearly within discretion and, if anything, the gentlest sanction the admin could come up with. The only change I would argue for is for TTAAC to be banned from that page outright, because probation is obscure and not widely understood. GoldenRing (talk) 23:17, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would grant the appeal simply because the sanction does not define or link to what "probation" even is. I don't know what it is either. It's not possible to follow an undefined restriction. This would be without prejudice to imposing a defined restriction. Sandstein 09:22, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so probation is apparently "supervised editing". This is pointless in a discretionary sanctions topic area, where everybody is already on probation, so to speak. A sanction that does nothing is a waste of time for everybody. I'd grant the appeal and lift the sanction for this reason. Sandstein 09:07, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also confused on what "probation" is. An uninvolved administrator can already sanction editors under DS, provided they've been made aware, and can do so immediately upon noticing a violation. So does the "probation" remedy actually do anything at all? It seems to me like an anachronism. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:15, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with a sanction of some sort being applied here, but add me to the list of admins confused about what "probation" means in this context. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 08:22, 28 January 2018 (UTC).[reply]
- @Coffee: Thanks. On that basis I'm inclined to decline the appeal, but it would be good to have a wider discussion about the practice of "probation", which while obviously allowed is quite unorthodox in my experience. Given the seemingly intractable problems in this area, maybe unorthodox is what we need. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 00:55, 30 January 2018 (UTC).[reply]
What Sandstein said. ~Awilley (talk) 16:30, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Decline appeal, I don't think it changes much, but it was within discretion. Courcelles (talk) 17:00, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can tell, the only effect of "probation" in a DS area is that it counts as an active sanction for awareness purposes, so is effectively a permanent alert until lifted (see WP:AC/DS#aware.aware point 2). It's more useful when imposed outside DS (whether by an arbcom remedy, or by a community discussion), which is presumably the reason for its existence on WP:EDR. If we want to put TTAAC under a "discuss before potentially controversial edit" and/or 1RR restriction, we should just do that. T. Canens (talk) 00:19, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Doc9871

Both Doc9871 and Ihardlythinkso are indefinitely blocked. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 18:02, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Doc9871

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: MrX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 13:41, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Doc9871 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBAPDS
WP:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive205#Doc9871 Doc9871 is indefinitely banned from any edit about, and any page related to, post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

January 29, 2018 "How about the resident White House physician, appointed in 2006, treated with utter incredulity that Trump is not just simply a blithering idiot teetering on the very edge of insanity."
January 29, 2018 "SHS is such a badass!!! Love her!!! Snowflakes don't even dare really to watch her. They are way too wimpy, really. Idiots like Cher tell her not to dress like a "sister-wife". ...Cher. Who the fuck wants her in office?!"
January 29, 2018 "I've never met a liberal who is tolerant of non-liberal ideology. It's black and white there. Literally."
January 29, 2018 "But... Trump is probably the most racist person in the very history of all of humanity. How can you reconcile your preposterous claim vs. "the rest of the world"?"
January 29, 2018 Warning by me
January 29, 2018 Warning by Bishonen (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
January 30, 2018 "FDR? I think he was a pretty good president.Oops! Damn! I just violated my topic ban by commenting on post-1932 American Politics. Fuck me."
January 30, 2018 "The Civil Rights Act of 1964? I think it was a very important, benchmark decision that was long overdue. Oh, dang! We got a Topic Ban violation over here!"
January 30, 2018 "'m thinking of perusing the "handful of Web sites which exist to promote and reinforce such viewpoints" that MastCell says are out there. Now, as a stereotypically toothless, inbred, cross-burning Trump supporter, I may need some help negotiatin' da intranets. Lil' help?"
January 30, 2018 "Don't put me in the basket, Man! Don't put me in the basket!" A funny guy I know would actually say this to this liberal freakshow who would mentally dismiss and put people in "the basket of deplorables" when discussing politics. Who even comes up with such a stupid concept? The one who lost? Yes!!!!"
January 30, 2018 "I wish Dianne Feinstein would get the "unfit" label as well. 84 years fuckin' old. Corrupt as hell, wanting re-election. Career Dems are the worst."
January 30, 2018 "Hi yourself! Yes, "probably seven years of his presidency" is on track with the current state of general hysteria. 90% of mainstream media coverage of Trump is negative. Unheard of. Cheers!"

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

December 12, 2016 Indef topic ban from post-1932 American politics
August 1, 2016 One month topic ban from Donald Trump.
June 9, 2016 ARBAPDS block

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on December 12, 2016 by MastCell (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Ihardlythinkso (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has also violated his topic ban immediately after coming off a block for violating his topic ban. See his talk page and contributions. If it's not obvious, go ahead and ignore it. I can't waste any more time digging for diffs on these two.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[31]

Discussion concerning Doc9871

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Doc9871

Statement by OID

See also my talk page here. Doc despite having a retired tag on their userpage was editing while logged out (prior to their block) in violation of their topic ban. You couldn't claim they were avoiding scrutiny since they were openly admitting their primary account, but its clear they have no intention of abiding by their topic ban when they have a soapbox to climb up on and be disruptive. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:01, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by GoodDay

Recommend that IHTS & Doc's blocks remain at 2 weeks & not extended to 3 months each, as has been suggested. A block in progress, shouldn't be extended, IMHO. Oh btw, I briefly commented at IHTS's talkpage, in his discussion with Doc, but then reverted my comment. Wasn't aware until now, that they were under topic-bans & so didn't want them to respond to my comment there, only to get themselves into more trouble. GoodDay (talk) 15:53, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As a member of WP:RETENTION, it saddens me to see that we've lost 2 editors, today. However, it must always be remembered, ours is a community of privileges not rights. When you use up those privileges? the result is inevitable. GoodDay (talk) 17:58, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Doc9871

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I've blocked Doc9871 for two weeks for coming back from a year's break solely to violate their topic ban (or so it seems from their contribs). If anyone feels this needs to be upped, it's fine by me. GoldenRing (talk) 13:51, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- And likewise Ihardlythinkso. GoldenRing (talk) 13:58, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would concur with GoldenRing here, both in his conclusion and the duration of the blocks. I hate to see it from these two, but Mastcell clearly and politely warned them and offered guidance just before they both violated the terms of the tbans, and in the very same thread. I can't see any possible justification for comments that followed, other than to push the limits of their respective tbans. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:08, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Looking closer, I would not be opposed to extending the blocks for both of them. Not only because of the fact that they violated the topic ban, but because of the way they did it. As Courcelles has already issued a CU/sock block for Doc, that one is a bit moot. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:32, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with the blocks. Two weeks is pretty lenient for those edits. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:32, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @NeilN: I thought seriously about just indeffing both of them and I'm still open to the idea - but didn't quite feel ready to do it off my own bat. What would you have considered a reasonable block here? GoldenRing (talk) 15:19, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - @GoldenRing: Three months each. They knew they were breaking their topic bans, were warned they were breaking their topic bans, and still continued to break their topic bans with completely inappropriate posts. Also would add a warning that the next violation will result in an indefinite block (first year under AE). --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:29, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - I'll see what others say here, but may well take your advice. If anyone wants to up the length themselves, take my consent as read. GoldenRing (talk) 15:41, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'd have indeffed both of them for this. Courcelles (talk) 16:10, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- And I've done this for Doc9871 after CU proves they have been violating their sanctions while logged out. Courcelles (talk) 17:15, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In spite of the fact that GoldenRing's suggestion is the most lenient here, IHTS has decide to copy/paste all of the opposes at GR's RFA to their talk page in lieu of an unblock request. I've removed it, and will remove talk page access if it is restored. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:36, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think anyone notified IHTS of this thread. While I don't think that affects the block for a clear-cut topic ban violation, it's reasonable to allow them to make a statement here in their defense regarding an increase in duration, if they choose. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:41, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - I guess we've reached the end of the line. They restored a link to the portion I removed, and when this is combined with their previous battleground approach, and this intentional topic ban violation, and considering the comments of other admins here, I've reblocked indef with no talk page access. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:49, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Someone needs to close and log the sanctions, perhaps one of the sanctioning admin, but for the record, I support all actions taken, after reviewing the available evidence. This appears to be "suicide by admin". Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:57, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

EEng

In view of Coffee's break,[32] I'm closing this with no action. Bishonen | talk 16:05, 2 February 2018 (UTC).[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning EEng

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Coffee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 05:28, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: EEng (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBAPDS WP:BLPDS:

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

diff 1, diff 2, diff 3, diff 4, diff 5, diff 6, diff 7 - these are some of the most egregious violations I've seen... at one point even saying they wanted to see tweets and tabloid coverage
diff 8 deliberate violation of this restriction and this page restriction

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

07:21, 12 June 2015 The ed17 (talk | contribs | block) blocked EEng (talk | contribs) with an expiration time of 31 hours (account creation blocked) (Disruptive editing and personal attacks on WT:DYK) This isn't their first rodeo at disruptive behavior at DYK

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

User is clearly aware: [33]

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

There are other users involved here, but this user has given the inch I gave them and took it a mile. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 05:28, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I implore the admins who review this to look into almost everyone involved in these discussions I've linked to above. I do not have the time nor energy to do it all myself. But, this type of behavior is simply not allowed in the topic area and every single person who participated in the "shenanigans" knew it. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 05:54, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@NeilN: Please do explain how an administrator who ticked an already ticked hook just to say DS was okay with it... is involved? I would have 2xticked any hook that wasn't in violation of the sanctions. You're also going to need to explain how you consider yourself uninvolved here after our recent conflicts? Answer per WP:ADMINACCT, thank you. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 06:14, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@NeilN: So your answer to how you aren't involved is to say that you've only interacted with me here? I'm talking about the specific conflicts on my talk page and elsewhere regarding non AE matters even, or are you denying that I can find diffs that show this? I'm truly interested to here an answer to this one. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 06:39, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Winged Blades of Godric: I did not supervote in any form or fashion. I did tick a hook, after it was already ticked, because I felt it was necessary for Mr Ernie to understand AE would be okay with a hook like Alt1... I will specify here as I have several places... Alt1,3,4,5 are all perfectly fine. I do not care which of those are chosen as they are all within policy, but this all started because I had to notify Ceranthor that he had ticked a hook the WP:ARBAP2/WP:BLPDS rulings would not find acceptable and that the WMF would frown upon. The Executive Director of the Foundation is being notified of all of this on Saturday. So I'd like to hope that we would take this a bit more seriously when we're talking about libelous/defamatory jokes making it to our Main Page. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 06:30, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Cullen328: Andrew Davidson (talk · contribs) is discussing it with her, not me. If you think the WMF has no authority here, you are very, very mistaken. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 06:55, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

notified

Discussion concerning EEng

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by EEng

Everything you need to know about this matter is contained in the edit notice Coffee added [34] to Talk:DYK:

You may not allude to, nor joke about, connections between Donald Trump and the country of Russia

Coffee has clearly lost all perspective about... well, everything, including his role as administrator. One is reminded of [35] (Coffee's the tall bossy dude in the big hat – and note the final boomerang).

@Masem: What Arbcom said in the Gamaliel case is April Fool's Day jokes are not exempt from the biographies of living persons policy. Not for a moment did anyone suggest that we should run a hook not compliant with BLP; what we were trying to decide was whether this or that hook was indeed BLP-compliant. Coffee supervoted the discussion out of existence because he was certain he knew the answer better than the dozen editors participating. His edit summary in his earlier attempt to stifle discussion [36] (Arbitration enforcement: ALT1 ALT3, ALT4, or ALT5 are the only hooks approved by our BLP policy, that is final) is telling. Policies don't approve things. What Coffee really means is "I have decided that this or that is policy-compliant, and what I decide is final!"

@Dennis Brown: You're dead wrong with your claim that EEng is ... using Wikipedia as a forum for his political beliefs, and you're out of line saying that. As I said in the discussion [37], It's got nothing to do with any political point. If we had an article about uranium being discovered on Mt. Everest, I'd write some hook like "Hillary let the uranium go" in a flash. I take 'em where I can find 'em, and anyone who knows my work at DYK, or anywhere else on the project for that matter, knows this.

And I'm sorry, you want to warn me for what, exactly? Is it for being one of ten persons to propose various hooks or discuss whether they are BLP-compliant? What??? Well, then you better warn Ritchie333 [38] as well – and Ceranthor [39] and Tryptofish [40] and Alanscottwalker [41] and LlywelynII [42] and ... Or will you be warning me I'm because I rejected Coffee's bullshit supervote aborting of a discussion actively underway? No matter what you may think about the merits of the hooks under discussion, Coffee's action was clearly out of line, and I was perfectly right to ignore his supervote and carry on discussing, as did other editors.

E Eng 08:35, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by WBG

Why is EEng particularly deserving such special attention/treatment?! In particular, given the conversation over the entire thread, I don't think that any sanctions are merited.~ Winged Blades^Godric 05:50, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- And, while sanctions and loggings are discretionary, Coffee, ~~you do really seem to have super-voted over there~~, your's closing of the disc. which was itself dealing on whether there are BLP vios etc. to be inappropriate and as I have often said, I can shall never equate to I shall.~ Winged Blades^Godric 05:54, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, as Cullen said, I dont care an iota about what Katherine thinks unless there's any OFFICE-ACTION, which is almost never going to happen over this case.And, AD....Sigh...~ Winged Blades^Godric 07:07, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
But, I will agree with Masem that all the parties (incl. you) ought to have behaved more properly.Further, BLP is not a very bright and clear-cut line, as it seems to many and it's wrong to thing one's interpretation to be superior esp. in light of opposition.~ Winged Blades^Godric 07:07, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Cullen328

Coffee needs to develop the ability to distinguish between jokes and actually disruptive edits. EEng should be cautious about joking in highly contentious topic areas. I do not see any sanctionable conduct by EEng. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:52, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Coffee, your claim that you will discuss all of this with Katherine Maher on Saturday may be the weakest Argument from authority that I have read in a long time. As you should know, the WMF does not intervene in such matters except in the most egregious cases. Some behind-the-scenes joking is way below that threshold. Please reconsider your aggressive stance. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:50, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mendaliv

No action required: There is a point where we go from ensuring reasonable dialogue remains alive and unmarred by political extremism on Wikipedia, and venture into truly "no fun allowed" land. EEng's sense of humor is well known, highly appreciated, and extraordinarily valuable. And yes, my friends, American politics is a place where we are allowed to have fun. The whole purpose of this project is volunteers making an encyclopedia because they enjoy doing it.

The only action appropriate is to deny the DYK hook as "not a good idea", and that is frankly probably outside the jurisdiction of AE. But EEng's effort here is actually quite valuable insofar as it ensures the discussion of whether the extreme protections of AP2 are fully necessary. No, we must ask these questions and keep asking these questions. Where we disagree and dissent with editorial and policy decisions, we must be able to do so without being dragged to this newest drama board.

The purpose of AP2—indeed, every DS—is to terminate actual disruption and to prevent further actual disruption. Not to preempt disruption, nor even to prevent editorial arguments, and certainly not to silence dissent. I believe Coffee is acting in good faith, but that he should reassess the fundamental reasons for these protective regimes. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 06:04, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And to absolutely clarify, there is no BLP violation here. Over the years we have moved from BLP meaning "don't libel people in articles" to "don't post unsourced derogatory information about people in articles" to "don't say something about a person that could hurt that person". Now, we're venturing into the impossible territory of "don't say something about a person that could either (1) give that person a platform upon which to say something nasty about WMF/Wikipedia, or (2) upset anybody who has strong feelings about that person." This is not what BLP means, nor is it what BLP has ever stood to mean. Even if we can justify all the previous moves in terms of respecting the dignity of individuals, there comes a point where we're harming the dignity of our own editors in the process.
And before the inevitable responses that this is an AP2 situation roll in, that is not the point being made here. The point that the people down below are making is that it's a BLP violation. Not that it's an AP2 violation. I'll be happy to debate that when everyone switches midstream when it's realized how insultingly preposterous the BLP violation claim is, but we're not there yet.
The bottom line is EEng did not violate BLP. The proper result to the DYK discussion would have been to reject the hook on the entirely valid grounds that making jokes on the main page about hot button issues in the American culture wars is probably not a good idea. EEng, I'm sure, would have disagreed on that point, and I would have been happy to debate him on that issue. I'm sure any number of us would have been happy to debate him on that issue. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 15:55, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by David Eppstein

I wrote something like this on my talk page earlier this evening when Coffee showed up there to remind me of this AE case, but I'll repeat it here: Cutting short talk-page discussions that are about whether something is in policy by unilaterally declaring that it is not, because you say so and that anyone who disagrees will get blocked (i.e. what Coffee has been doing) does not meet my definition of appropriate behavior by an administrator, nor is it what the sort of action requested here should be used for. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:19, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Seraphim System

These are not BLP violations. Donald Trump is a public figure. Regarding the addition to the main page, the editors wisely came up with the Alt 6 option where the image is sufficient to avoid any BLP implications. They exercised extreme caution and good judgment in taking this precaution.Seraphim System ^(talk) 06:38, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I should modify my statement - Re a possible meeting between WikimediaUK and WMF to discuss this on Saturday, the laws in the UK are very different. Discussion is good, I'm supportive, I hope they get everything sorted out. But in the United States, we have a requirement of actual malice. It is a free speech issue regarding public figures - you can find out more about it at oyez if you want.Seraphim System ^(talk) 07:14, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding The Gamaliel case Masem mentioned, I think in this case the proposal for Alt 6 to include an the image of the streets makes it clear the the hook is about two streets. This isn't a BLP violation. Something like this [43] which was tagged as a hoax falsely presented a joke as factual. (That could be a violation). This is why I said the editors exercised extreme caution during the discussion to ensure that the hook complied with BLP. There may be disagreement about this, but the ongoing discussion should not have been closed prematurely when there was significant support for the proposal [44].Seraphim System ^(talk) 07:45, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Galobtter

I don't see any reason to shut down the discussion at Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Trump_Street or elsewhere (discussion about whether something violates a policy or not, is not something that needs to be stopped), nor is wanting to see tweets about it bad. Galobtter (pingó mió) 06:58, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Legacypac

Trump is a public figure so BLP applies differently. EEng is well known for his good humour. No action is necessary here and Coffee should be more careful since they wear an Admin hat. The chilling comment posted and the edit summary here [45] is inappropriate and potentially actionable. Why is a 400 year old London Street under US Politocs since 1932 DS anyway? That's just wrong. Legacypac (talk) 07:04, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by DHeyward

Nothing about this improves the encyclopedia. If a DYK is divisive, it needs to be dropped. It's really simple. --DHeyward (talk) 07:23, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ritchie333

I would like to clarify a point made upthread referring to Andrew Davidson contacting the WMF director this weekend. To put this in context, this is part of the Future of Wikipedia conference presented by the directors of WMF and WMUK in London. It's going to be concentrating on reducing systemic bias and helping bridge the gender gap, and how to deal with the problems of "post-truth" politics when reliably sourcing information. In this context, I would say that hectoring editors over criticism of Trump and threatening administrative sanctions over it is probably a strategic error. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 11:01, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding BLP - I would like to draw people's attention to this 2006 keynote speech where Jimmy Wales stressed the importance of BLPs. Specifically : "During this past year, in the English Wikipedia in particular, our policies on biographies of living persons have become much more refined and really a a strong focus on higher quality.... But also because the project's gotten larger and larger, we're actually writing articles about less and less famous people. So, you can write anything you want about George Bush and he's not going to call up on the phone and complain, right, he's heard it all. But what happens is, we have very minor celebrities and sort of controversial people, they read their article on Wikipedia and if it isn't good, then they complain, they get upset.." I don't think Jimbo really means you can trash-talk Bush ad infinitum, rather that BLP was designed to protect relatively minor figures from harm by well-meaning but misguided editors. Additionally, if anyone is really concerned about BLPs, I have some links on my userpage that track biographies cited to tabloid newspapers. We currently have about 50 BLPs that cite The Sun. I want that figure down to 0. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 11:51, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Randy Kryn

I was going to comment on the original topic, the interesting DYK idea which was original and not at all controversial, but the section had already been shut down and I assumed that someone had moved it over to the April Fools nomination page. In missing it I guess I also missed a chance to be included in the watchful eye of Coffee, who had put one of those giant warning templates on my page just a couple of days ago apparently because, looking at edit history, I had added two names to the FBI template under the section "People". The discussion about the April Fools DYK nomination was about an innocent and appealing twist on the current rage in the states to blame Russia for everything regardless of background information, and the going on two-year effort to tie the nation's president into what seems to be a false and unraveling narrative. Street names do not a violation make, especially in an April Fool's DYK discussion. I see creativity and good nature all around in this case, and no violation. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:56, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Lepricavark

I don't much care for the fact that when it comes to Donald Trump, seemingly almost anything goes on this site. We need to do a better job of fostering a climate that is welcoming to all editors, conservative, liberal, or otherwise. That being said, given that pretty much anything has gone up to this point, I don't think it's fair to specifically sanction EEng. Lepricavark (talk) 13:48, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MjolnirPants

Coffee used his admin tools to win a content argument, and now is trying to levy a sanction against an editor he clearly dislikes, instead of the editor responsible for the content in question or any of the other editors who contributed more vociferously to that discussion than EEng (including me). For those of you who recall me berating people for their abuse of Coffee last week, you may be surprised to know that I'm seriously considering asking ArbCom to desysop him over this, and I know I'm not the only one. This is one the single most egregious misuse of the tools I have seen in my years on this site. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:56, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GoldenRing: I just looked at the two diffs you provided, and not only do I completely disagree about your interpretation of them, I'm having serious difficulty in assuming you characterized them that way in good faith. In what fucking universe does making a pun turn an editor's agreement that people should stop antagonizing another editor into a personal attack? In what fucking universe does wishing to get noticed by Trump and tweeted about constitute a partisan statement?

I'm not being hyperbolic, here. Not trying to make a point. I am completely serious when I say: Please explain this to me, per WP:ADMINACCT (your statement was made as part of an AE discussion in your capacity as an admin, so it's an admin action). I cannot make heads or tails of your claims here. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:46, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@NeilN, Masem, Dennis Brown, Hut 8.5, Black Kite, SoWhy, Sandstein, and GoldenRing: Please note this. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:20, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Masem: Whether or not these violate BLP is a matter of opinion, not fact. Note that at no point was any proposal put forward that ever stated anything about any living person, but rather stated facts about a street. IF an editor is willing to read the obvious implication into the statement that it is referring to Donald Trump and the state of Russia via a double entendre, then one must also accept that the implication is not intended to be taken as a statement of fact, and that the entire DYK statement was a joke, precisely because it remained a direct reference to streets.

Additionally, I don't see where in BLP any reference is made to jokes which are obviously not intended to be taken seriously. Nor do I see anything in BLP or in Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections to suggest that "connected" -the actual word used in the DYK- could not be interpreted in a sufficiently large number of way so as to permit it to be interpreted as a bland statement of fact. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:10, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Davey2010

Personally I think the whole thing was handled in a very heavy way - Whilst I appreciate we all need to abide by DS restrictions and all that at the same time the main DYK page was kept civil and as far as I know on point ..... talkpage on the other hand was repeatedly derailed by various things so maybe that page should've been locked instead of the the main DYK page,

Coffee (and others) disagreed with the DYK (and that's fine) but as Coffee opened the discussion on the talkpage (and then closed it repeatedly) IMHO he shouldn't of locked the DYK page nor should he of re-closed the talkpage - I'm just going to be honest but I feel Coffee disagreed with the hook and he used the DS stuff as well as his admin tools to "win the dispute" or atleast find a way for the hook to not go further - If he cared that much he would've done the DS stuff right from the start but he only chose to do so a good day or so later,

I think it's fair to say EEng was quite rightly frustrated with it all as was everyone else and in reality if he's being reported here then each and every contributor to that DYK/TP should also be here but that all being said I'm not seeing any violations or really anything worth caring about - EEng, myself and others have all said their peace and I think it's best if this gets closed as No Action - What's been said has been said and what's been done's been done. –Davey2010^Talk 13:57, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

SPECIFICO - I can't speak for everyone but for me personally I would've objected to all this regardless of who the admin was ..... I don't believe his actions were correct at all and as far I can see many different admins actively enforce DS .... If not one admin enforced DS at the DYK then doesn't that say something ? (IE it's not worth enforcing), –Davey2010^Talk 15:13, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

{{u|GoldenRing} - Since when is "Yes, stop stirring Coffee up" a personal attack ?, Last I knew puns weren't personal attacks and I honestly cannot understand how they could be perceived as such ? ... Trolling .... Baiting .... maybe but Personal attacks ?, Definitely not.. –Davey2010^Talk 15:18, 2 February 2018 (UTC) (Struck as it wasn't the pun that was the issue. –Davey2010^Talk 15:45, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SPECIFICO

Views and sensitivities about Trump are polarized and intransigent, pro and con. If even 20% of our readers find a Trump joke offensive or inappropriate or "biased" that's clearly unacceptable and can only undermine WP's mission.

As to enforcement, it seems to me the real problem with DS/AE is not that Coffee is trying to do his job. It's that so few other Admins are joining him. If another dozen Admins were actively engaged in keeping American Politics policy-compliant, we wouldn't have all the personal disparagement of Coffee every time he tries to do the right thing. And none of his adversaries and critics here should be casting the first stone. SPECIFICO talk 14:51, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning EEng

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Decline to levy any sanctions against EEng. I consider Coffee to be WP:INVOLVED in this matter and they overstepped placing this restriction, forcing their views upon a content discussion. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 06:01, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Coffee 1) "There is to be no more discussion or jokes made about the AP2 topic area." This is not a "reasonable measure" by any means but you shutting down discussion and casting a supervote on content matters. 2) This is the arbcom enforcement request and appeal board. Admins are supposed to formulate their own views on a request or appeal and not just parrot the views of other admins. Just because I've disagreed with other admins from time to time here does not make me involved with those admins (and vice versa). --NeilN ^{talk to me} 06:34, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Coffee We've disagreed on other administrative matters. I don't think we've had any content disputes. And I think it would set a dangerous precedent if only admins who always agreed in all matters with the admin requesting enforcement or whose sanction was being appealed were considered uninvolved. If that was the case, we might as well look to renaming this the "rubber stamp" board. However, if an uninvolved admin familiar with this board disagrees, they may move my posts up to a separate section. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 06:50, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It seems rather obviously from the ~~Gabriel~~ Gamaliel and others case two years ago that experienced editors should not be making well-intended jokes that appear in predominate pages (like the main page) about BLP. I'm not 100% sure if all of Coffee's actions are legit, but I cannot excuse those that were justifying BLP violations to be shown on the main page fully aware of the previous case. (ETA corrections on case name) --Masem (t) 06:52, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Per Seraphim System, if it was knowingly made aware that to avoid a BLP violation that we needed an associated image to "defuse" the text, that's still clearly a BLP violation. Keep in mind accessibility, and not everyone sees images; it is clear editors knew text alone could be taken badly. --Masem (t) 11:13, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd generally agree that this is a case of no action that can reasonably be taken, but I do think that those that were wholly supportive of the "joke" DYK hooks that were BLP violations that this type of joking is not tolerated per the previous ArbCom case. I also think that Coffee probably coul dhave been a bit less aggressive in the approach here - they had every right to try to shut down the BLP-violating parts of discussion, but might have closed off too much, and there is a fair question of how involved they were to make the call. However, I do fully support that if Coffee wasn't involved, or another admin that wasn't involved took unilateral action to shut down the discussion on the BLP-violating hooks, that's well within appropriate admin responsibilities to do. --Masem (t) 15:58, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

EEng is obviously violating BLP here, and using Wikipedia as a forum for his political beliefs, which is a big problem. Claiming to do so in humor isn't a defense, as WP:BLP makes no mention nor exception for humor. His actions aren't isolated, this is a problem all over Wikipedia that tends to get overlooked, for various reasons. That he's doing it within DYK makes it worse. I'm not sure how you put the whole of DYK under DS with a simple declaration, however, and think the restriction he placed on the whole of DYK is outside admin discretion. Not saying it would be a bad thing, just that an admin doesn't have that authority, making it a moot action that needs reverting in the log. I don't feel we can ignore EEng's actions here, nor the actions of others participating, but the problem is so widespread, I'm at a loss as to the solution. I'm not sure how WP:INVOLVED comes into play here, since Coffee didn't sanction EEng but brought him here instead. I've said it before, but I've avoided DYK for years because of the poisonous environment, thus I don't see what we can do here to fix that here at WP:AE. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 07:43, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm thinking a warning may be sufficient, but I would note that all the political jabs and squabbling make Wikipedia a "no fun zone" for people that actually want to build an encyclopedia. I personally get sick of the obvious political partisanship on Wikipedia, and I think that NPOV gets thrown out the window when we excuse BLP violations because we agree with the politics behind it or justify it by labeling it humor. It isn't always easy to draw a line in the sand, but I think this is close enough to justify a warning. This kind of constant, low-boil political jabbing does not foster a positive environment for all editors and needs to be curtailed. It doesn't belong at an encyclopedia, regardless of political affiliation. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 08:07, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest that we just declare that running this kind of thing on the main page is a bad idea and move on to other things. I don't think actually blocking someone for making those comments would be a good idea, even if they are technically BLP violations. Hut 8.5 08:12, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

One of the remedies in the Gamaliel case was, "The community is encouraged to hold an RfC regarding whether the leniency for April Fools Day jokes should be continued and if so, what should be allowed." I don't recall this RFC ever happening. I don't think a small group of admins should be declaring AP2/BLP jokes off limits in lieu of holding this RFC (if that's what you meant by "bad idea"). --NeilN ^{talk to me} 08:32, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No hook - regardless of whether it's one that Coffee decided is OK or not - is going to be promoted at the moment anyway, because he fully protected Template:Did you know nominations/Trump Street at the same time, which means that someone would have to edit through protection to do it. I think that can be safely unprotected or else the process is going to stay in limbo, generating more heat than light. Black Kite (talk) 08:25, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That protection was labeled as an arbitration enforcement action. It would therefore need to be appealed by somebody. Sandstein 11:10, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I love following procedure as much (or more) as the next guy but do we really need a formal appeal when we can just decide within this discussion that the protection should be lifted? Regards So Why 12:12, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No action (edit conflict). With all due respect to BLP enforcement, I don't see why EEng is singled out here. The nomination was created by respected admin Ritchie333 and the ALT0 he proposed is basically what Coffee takes offense with. EEng and others might have participated in the same vein but it seems strange that Coffee singled out EEng to report them here and has not even talked to the nominator or the other editors if BLP was his main concern. In the end, it's clear that all involved merely tried to use established DYK rules to create "hooky" language to draw in readers which includes shortening some information without withholding it. The discussion also shows that the proposed ALT6, which keeps the short language but adds a picture to make clear that streets are meant, gathered consensus. I propose we agree that this was an attempt at some humor that backfired but all people involved should take a step back and let non-involved DYK regulars sort it out. I see no reason to place restrictions on the hook or WT:DYK in general for this and suggest they be lifted. Regards So Why 08:33, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, I think Coffee certainly crossed the threshold to WP:INVOLVED when he protected the template mentioning which ALTs he thinks are correct while discussion was still underway, thus making it clear he had a personal opinion in this matter. Consequently, this edit and all subsequent edits regarding this matter were made by an involved administrator. Regards So Why 09:04, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would take no action. The request is deficient. The user making an enforcement request is expected to explain how a specific edit violates any applicable remedy or sanction. The information provided here falls far short of that. There's no explanation, no dates for the diffs, and as to the first part of diffs no link to a specific remedy or sanction. I haven't even read anything else in this thread. Sandstein 11:07, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Pretty much per Dennis Brown. I agree that the original hook is a BLP violation which was proposed (and seriously argued) for the main page, and in that context, most of Coffee's actions were reasonable administrative ones, enforcing BLP policy. While there was lots of bad behaviour in those two discussions, I think I do understand why EEng has been singled out; comments such as this are nakedly partisan and this is right on the edge of a personal attack. The only action I would query is placing "this page and the related topic area broadly construed" under an editing restriction; where "this page" is WT:DYK, I guess that makes all of DYK "the related topic" and anything nominated for DYK "the related topic broadly construed". That seems to me to be expanding the area subject to discretionary sanctions beyond what the committee has authorised. In short: EEng, don't do it again. GoldenRing (talk) 11:40, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The subsequent discussion which Coffee shut down was not about the original hook and I disagree with your characterizations of EEng's comments. The first was sarcastic and the second was far from a personal attack. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 12:49, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'll admit that I don't quite see how labelling it sarcastic makes that remark any better. Sarcasm is perfectly capable of also being partisan. As for the personal attack, calling other editors "wussies" might be very mild in PA terms, but the edit and the edit summary together put it "right on the edge" for me. GoldenRing (talk) 14:43, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GoldenRing: For the second edit, I thought you were referring to the content so I didn't look at the edit summary. Having now looked, I agree with your assessment. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:42, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No action I'm not even sure it was truly a BLP vio, let alone one requiring AE. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:30, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No action. There were no policy violations, and it isn't clear why EEng was singled out. As for Template:Did you know nominations/Trump Street, indefinite full protection was added by an involved admin (for example, see this comment) and should therefore be unprotected. Sandstein, if a page is protected out of process, an AE request is surely not needed to undo it. SarahSV ^(talk) 15:53, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Unprotected the DYK template after comments by SoWhy, SarahSV, Black Kite. Sorry Sandstein for cutting through the red tape. Drmies (talk) 16:51, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Rusf10 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 02:47, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )#Amendments :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

December 18, 2017 Page was created by RAN as redirect
February 3, 2018 Page was converted from a redirect to an article in violation of RAN's topic ban on article creation.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

September 26, 2013 added link to external website where he contributed, resulted in two week ban
March 10, 2014- created article in violation of ban, resulting in one month ban.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see above diffs.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Richard Arthur Norton (1958-) (RAN) creates scores of redirects everyday. While it is not clear that creating a redirect would be a violation of his ban on article creation since a redirect technically is not an article, what he did today was clearly a violation. About two months ago he created the page Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey as a redirect. Today he converted that redirect into an article. No other user edited the article between these two revisions.

@Awilley:That is an accurate summary of events, nothing is left out. RAN's explanation is extremely misleading. When he split the information out of the other article it was information exclusively authored by him. Only a minor edit was made by another user. So basically he's trying to sidestep his ban by writing an article within another article and then spinning it out. According to him, that's not creating a new article, I think it clearly is.--Rusf10 (talk) 08:30, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Mendaliv:- Thank you for providing those diffs. They prove that this is not an isolated incident and RAN knew exactly what he was doing. RAN is clearly gaming the system and going forward he should be banned from creating redirects too.--Rusf10 (talk) 16:51, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Lankiveil:I object to only a one month block, due to the fact that RAN clearly knew what he was doing and was gaming the system. It's not like this was an isolated incident,Mendaliv provided evidence that he did this multiple times. This is his MO, he's always pushing the boundaries. Just like he tried to do with replacing deleted articles with wikidata entries, see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#RfC: Linking to wikidata I support a longer block as per User:Sandstein, User:Timotheus Canens, & User:Seraphimblade.--Rusf10 (talk) 03:45, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Lankiveil:, okay I see what you're saying and I trust you and User:GoldenRing will use good judgement, but I just want to see if the other admins agree with the length of the block or not. Another question, will any of these three pages RAN created be deleted? As per the arbitration case "The article or draft article may be speedily deleted under criterion G5 by any administrator." Or do I need to take them to AfD?--Rusf10 (talk) 04:20, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Francis Schonken, JFG, Lankiveil, and SoWhy:- I think its okay to return the articles to a redirect, however the previous revisions still should be deleted. I can envision RAN coming back after his block and just reverting the pages again to his preferred version and then saying I didn't create an article, I just reverted. I say delete the articles and if another user wants them, they can request the deleted version and recreate it themselves with the understanding that they will take full responsibility for its content.--Rusf10 (talk) 12:28, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[46]

Discussion concerning Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Norton

I made a valid redirect to the larger article. I created content in an existing article. Another editor trimmed the large block. I split the information from an existing article into a redirect in one edit, so not undue. No new article was created with new content, information was migrated to the list from an existing article in a valid article split. --RAN (talk) 02:51, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Beyond My Ken

In his statement, just above, Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) appears to want to have things both ways. He is forbidden by his sanctions to create articles, but he creates redirects on the theory -- which I believe is justified -- that a redirect is not an article. However, he also wants to be allowed to convert those redirects into articles under the theory that in doing so he is not creating an article, simply adding information to an existing article (the redirect). Well, it can't be both things at the same time. Either the redirect is or isn't an article. If a redirect is an article, then RAN routinely violates his sanctions when he creates redirects (i.e. articles). If it isn't an article, then making it into an article is creating an article where none existed before. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:59, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Concerning DHeyward's complaint: it is not the job of admins at AE to alter or overrule editorial sanctions applied by ArbCom, but instead their purpose is to adjudicate any reported violations of those sanctions, which -- at least in my analysis --this one clearly is. Thus, determining that RAN's action did or did not harm Wikipedia is outside the proper purview of AE, and DHeyward's "which actions hurt the project" is something of a strawman -- although one can say with some certainty that editors not following their sanctions inherently harms the project by undermining the authority of ArbCom to place sanctions, by encouraging other editors to decide that they, too, do not have to follow their sanctions, and by devaluing the work of those who edit without being sanctioned. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:08, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Question to Awilley - Just to clear up an ambiguity, does your query "Am I missing anything" means "Do I have all the facts on this matter?", or does it mean "What am I missing here that qualifies this as a violation of a sanction?" Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:11, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by DHeyward

No complaint has merit on process alone. Per NOtBURO, which actions hurt the project? I see no diffs presented that hurt the project and without them, sanctions of any kind are unwarranted. --DHeyward (talk) 07:10, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mendaliv

BMK has it right here:

The page "Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey" was created as a redirect by RAN.
The page "Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey" ceased to be a redirect when RAN next edited it.
The page "Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey" was an article at the time of the second edit, and no other editors edited it in the meantime.

If creating redirects is fine, then replacing a redirect with content is creating an article. If replacing redirects with content is fine, then creating a redirect is creating an article. Thus, RAN created an article, though we can't say for certain whether it was at the first or second edit.

As to the comment by DHeyward, I believe the reviewing admins have no discretion not to block RAN once it's determined he's created an article.

Bonus: Resolving a possible ambiguity in the language of the remedy and enforcement provisions

Remedy 2.3 (resulting from the Oct 2015 amendment): Any article or draft article created contrary to this restriction will result in a block, initially of at least one month and then proceeding per the enforcement provisions.
Enforcement: Should any user subject to a restriction in this case violate that restriction, that user may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year . . . .

At the very least, it's clear that the first violation under Remedy 2.3 must result in a block. Subsequent violations, it is technically ambiguous, and "then proceeding per the enforcement provisions" could mean that, after the first violation, enforcement is per what the enforcement provision says, which gives discretion not to block. However, the placement of a comma after "will result in a block" can indicate that this phrase is syntactically connected to "proceeding per the enforcement provisions". Logically, it strikes me as pretty clear the Committee meant the "proceeding per" to refer to the duration rather than implying a flow-chart like movement.

Another wrinkle: The last logged action in the RAN case was in March 2014, prior to the enactment of Remedy 2.3. As such, arguably, the current request is for the very first sanction under that remedy, which is unquestionably mandatory. Of course, the operative language is "of at least one month". That is, it can be more, according to the reviewing admins' discretion.

The TL;DR is that even if the result is that whether to block or how much to block is per the reviewing admins' discretion, it doesn't mean they need a compelling reason for that decision. Just that they can't abuse their discretion when making that decision. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 08:44, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Update: On a hunch, I ran a search of RAN's contribs with the tag filter, mw-removed-redirect, which displays all contribs where he removed a redirect from a page. There were six instances of this tag in total. While there were some innocuous cases, there were also ones that were probably violations of the remedy in the same way as Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey:

Mayor of Chatham, New Jersey: created 2 Jan as a redir, redir removed 3 Jan (there were a great many subsequent edits adding more content).
Sáenz: created 8 Dec as a redir, redir removed two minutes later (!!!). In particular, I note that the unreadable content appear to be copied-and-pasted blurbs from the ledes of numerous Wikipedia articles, without proper attribution to those articles. While the "article" created is a dab page, I think this, more than any of the others, is a violation given the original case had to do with copyright issues.

I don't think we're in "this was a one-time error of judgment" territory anymore. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 10:35, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Bishonen and Dennis Brown: I won't say I'm not sympathetic; I think, in general, admins carrying out actions should have some discretion to consider something to be inconsequential. Part of the problem is the way the remedy is written (and as Thryduulf has made abundantly clear, this was intentional and designed such that enforcement would be nondiscretionary). I understand that normally AE is where we deal with requests for applying DS, and as such the practices here are such that reviewing admins will try to come up with creative ways of preventing further disruption. But this isn't one of those cases, and as such the procedure is different. With regard to the ambiguity concern I noted above, had there been any actual grumbling about whether the inconsistent phrasing was intentional or a scrivener's error, I would have suggested that this be referred to ARCA on something similar to a "certified question" process; that is, someone would open an ARCA asking only whether blocking under the remedy was mandatory if there was a consensus that there was a violation.
Again, I'm not unsympathetic. As I grumbled quite vocally yesterday at AC/N in regards to a community-imposed restriction that would supposedly automatically kick in were the editor in question unblocked, I believe that prospective/conditional sanctions are generally a bad idea and should be considered suggestions. However, when the sanction is crafted by the Committee after deliberation and is voted on by a quorum of arbitrators, I believe the usual concerns I have regarding such "consensus preempting" are significantly less than with an AN/ANI discussion. My suggestion would be, if RAN believes the mandatory nature of the block is unfair along these lines, he should immediately open an ARCA asking for the Committee to reconsider. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:21, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SN54129

Mendaliv's diffs are pretty convclusive on what the curent affair hinges on, viz. whether RAN's actions were accidental and isolated, or deliberate and ubiquitous. For the future, it might be worth considering the extension of the current topic-ban (or a re-definition) to include the creation of redirects as well as articles. If nothing else, it would remove the temptation to then expand the redirect into an article, which, it would seem, is so strong. >SerialNumber54129^{...speculates} 13:10, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kingsindian

This is the first time I have heard of a provision that says a user must be blocked for a violation. Such a provision makes a mockery of "discretionary sanctions", which are supposed to be, um, discretionary.

Here's what happened here. There was an edge case which was used (or abused, depending on one's POV) by RAN. His last violation was 4 years ago. There was no attempt to discuss this matter with RAN prior to coming here. No damage happened to the encyclopedia.

Instead of draconian months-long sentences, it would be better to warn them that this loophole cannot be exploited in the future, and let it go. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:34, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Thryduulf: My mistake about the DS part, however that just shifts the question elsewhere. Why did ArbCom phrase its motion as "must be blocked", which is highly unusual, to say the least? The original remedy uses a standard language of a topic ban. Violating a topic ban does not result in a "must be blocked no matter what" situation. In the discussion, I see no Arb even commenting on this very unusual provision.

The whole situation is absurd. I have enough experience with ArbCom to know that they're capable of writing remedies which nobody understands, not even they. I call for IAR and NOTBURO here, and a swift change in the absurd wording. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 16:27, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Thryduulf: Let us separate out two things. First: what must be done, and second: what, in your opinion, should be done. You wrote the very unusual remedy saying that the block must be instituted. I don't think that was wise, but that's beside the point. I realize that Arbs can do whatever they want, but I leave it to any normal person to decide if a violation 4 years after the last sanction should result in an unconditional 1 month block. I think it is self-evidently absurd, but I won't argue the point.

As for the "spirit" of the motion, the motion said that unless RAN cleans up their mess, their topic ban won't be lifted. They haven't, and it hasn't. Besides that, you can't really control what any editor does on Wikipedia (except banning them completely). If the motion's intention was to force RAN to do nothing except clean up their mess, then it should have been written directly. I think that we can conclude that many years after the fact, the desired behavior will not happen. This situation should be accepted, rather than harassing RAN over unrelated things into doing something he clearly doesn't want to do. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 17:03, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by JFG

Irrespective of the circumstances leading to creation of those pages by a user who was supposed not to, the articles are well-sourced and inherently encyclopedic. They would surely survive AfD, hence should not be deleted for administrative reasons (WP:CSD#G5 was suggested). We are not a bureaucracy. — JFG ^talk 04:55, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Francis

Re. Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey:
1. I reverted the article to a redirect, that is a redirect to Monmouth County, New Jersey#Sheriffs.
2. I kept Category:Sheriffs of Monmouth County, New Jersey as a category on the redirect, moving all other content to the Monmouth County, New Jersey article.
3. In that article I placed a {{Split portions}} tag under the Monmouth County, New Jersey#Sheriffs section header, suggesting to split portions of that section to Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey. The Split portions tag contains a "discuss" link to Talk:Monmouth County, New Jersey if the proposed split needs further discussion.

Reasoning: G5 delete is not mandated, but returning to a redirect seems best (per SoWhy and others). Per the original RAN case, any editor may assume responsibility for content created by RAN: I did so by placing it in the Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey article, where I expect it to be edited (especially trimmed) mercilessly and/or to be split out again (e.g. to Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey). I leave that responsibility to others (e.g. JFG feel free to adopt the content created by RAN, by undoing all my edits to both Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey and Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey – I'd keep a somewhat longer "summary" of the Sheriff article at the Sheriff section in the Monmouth County article though, than the merely two sentences that used to be there) while the content intricacies are a bit far out of my league. It is also possible to revert this edit by RAN where he decimated the Sheriff section in the Monmouth County article, replacing the bulk of its content by a {{See}} link to their newly created article (e.g. Rusf10, if you'd feel the extended content I now placed there is too extended it is perfectly possible to return the content of that section to the state before RAN messed with it). AFAICS none of these actions, nor the ones I did on these two articles, nor the ones I proposed or suggested, need admin (and even less AE) intervention: regular editing processes can take over from here. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:54, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Rusf10: Re. "I can envision RAN coming back after his block and just reverting the pages again to his preferred version ... " – I understand. Reasonably, RAN could support the split by saying so at Talk:Monmouth County, New Jersey (if nobody performed the split before they come out of their block). The scenario you portray may:

happen before anyone else converted the redirect to an article: in that case RAN is up for an incremental block I suppose.
happen after someone else converted the redirect to an article: nothing to be done at AE I suppose (unless RAN fell short of any other remedies of their ArbCom case in the process). As for the extent of the Sheriff-related content in both articles, use normal methods to come to an agreement. If you need help arranging, trimming or extending content, just ask me or, preferably, someone more versed in this type of content. If needed, after trying other routes, escalate to ArbCom.

In other words, I suppose I understand that admins don't want to overreach in this AE procedure. Whether or not the current redirect is deleted makes little difference IMHO, anyone could pick the content up from the (revision history) of the article where I moved it. Also taking the current redirect to WP:RfD would be possible: I suppose, however, that most admins would consider a delete merely as a result of this AE procedure (i.e. without taking other steps) as inactionable. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:56, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Justlettersandnumbers

I'm not familiar with the history here, and this may not be the right place to raise this anyway. At a very quick first glance, what I see is:

A large open contributor copyright investigation, more than six years old
Unattributed copying of Wikipedia content in the original diff supplied by Rusf10
Unattributed copying of Wikipedia content, as noted by Mendaliv, at Sáenz
Full, detailed and patient explanation of the need for attribution on RAN's talk-page in 2011 – e.g., here
Unattributed copy-pasting from a Public Domain source with this edit.

That's in a few minutes of looking. Those three problems are all quite easily fixed, but they raise serious concerns that all of RAN's edits since the CCI was opened in 2011 (of which there seem to be around 60000) may also need to be scrutinised. It looks as if admins should consider whether he should be blocked indefinitely to prevent the possibility of any further damage to the project. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 01:44, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

The request has merit. Creating a redirect and then making this redirect into an article is creating an article. I would impose a two-month block, doubling the previous block duration. Sandstein 06:59, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Based on Mendaliv's evidence, I'm now considering imposing a six-month block. The evidence shows that Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) has repeatedly violated his restriction, and particularly in the case of Sáenz his conduct reflects some of the reasons why the restriction was imposed: this is the state he left the article he created in, which is not only a copyvio for copypasting Wikipedia content without attribution, but is also badly formatted and contains weird timestamps. Sandstein 10:50, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Let me get this straight. RAN creates a redirect on December 18, 2017 [47]. On February 2, 2018 he adds a new section to the target article and makes many edits to it. [48] On February 3 another user makes some minor formatting changes to the section. [49] 13 hours later RAN cuts the new section out of the article and pastes it to populate the redirect. [50] Am I missing anything? ~Awilley (talk) 07:52, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Based on the research by Mendaliv above and the clarifications by Thryduulf below I think the one-month block is the best path forward, although I agree with Bish about mandated sanctions. I oppose a ban on the creation of redirects as they are harmless and have nothing to do with the copyvios that got RAN here in the first place. I think the block will be sufficient warinng that gaming the system by turning redirects into articles is inappropriate and will result in further blocks. ~Awilley (talk) 18:40, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Beyond My Ken: it was the former. ~Awilley (talk) 23:13, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This looks an obvious violation and, per Mendaliv, the remedy appears to require a one month block. My gut feeling is to say, "don't do it again," but is the option open to us? GoldenRing (talk) 09:12, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Sandstein that Mendaliv's evidence shows RAN obviously circumventing his restriction. A long block is in order. GoldenRing (talk) 13:04, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is an obvious violation. A block would be justified, but I am wondering if we need to do a two week block plus a editing ban for creating redirects, since that is what got us here. I think this is within our authority and doesn't require ARCA. This would effectively prevent him from creating any page in main space and would be easy to enforce and addresses the long term problem more effectively. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:01, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What would be the authority for a ban on creating redirects? Also, as noted by Mendaliv above, it appears we are required to impose at least a one-moth block. Sandstein 15:04, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And even if it were authorized, a redirect ban would be the wrong choice. Creating redirects, as such, is not the problem here. Creating articles is. And that is already banned. Sandstein 15:20, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The authority is that AE gives us the freedom to choose a sanction that best prevents disruption, so by my estimation, we are absolutely authorized to use that as a sanction. A ban on redirects could have been done at ANI for that matter. I get why there might be some resistance, but my goal is to prevent the restrictions from being gamed, which looks to be the case here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:43, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That is not strictly true. Please read the Enforcement provision of the applicable case. That is what applies to arbitration enforcement related to this restriction. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 20:07, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Reading it strictly, I see what you mean. It does seem that Arb has hamstrung us into only using blocks as a sanction, which is a pity as I don't feel that is the best solution and I'm not alone in this. This is obviously a situation that Arb did not foresee, and yet here we are. That said, there is an obvious violation, and Sandstein's suggestion of a two month block, twice the previous, would be the only available sanction. Or we could dismiss it, but we don't really have any other options. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:04, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:NOTPUNITIVE, I'm in favour of just an indefinite ban from creating redirects, plus a warning to the user that any further attempt to game any of his bans will result in a long block. But if that's not viewed favorably, I'll support Dennis's suggestion as my second option. Bishonen | talk 14:26, 4 February 2018 (UTC).[reply]

GoldenRing has now imposed a one-month block. We may end up there, but it should preferably not be done while we're still talking, and I particularly don't think it should be done per Thryduulf's reasoning. The ArbCom of 2015, as voiced by Thryduulf, wrote in this motion that "Any article or draft article created contrary to this restriction will result in a block" (my italics), and I see Kingsindian protesting above against this unusual wording. It's not just unusual, it also goes beyond ArbCom's remit, if it's intended the way it sounds, i. e. if it's intended to order admins to perform such a block. ArbCom can't tell admins what to do, they have to ask nicely. The fact that no other arb protested, as Thryduulf mentions below, doesn't make the motion the Stone Tablets, and it's not correct that we (=uninvolved admins here, or indeed any other admins) have 'no alternative but to impose a 1 month block'. Admins always have an alternative. They can do nothing, for instance, or they can impose a milder sanction. Bishonen | talk 17:52, 4 February 2018 (UTC).[reply]

Thryduulf, you don't seem to be answering my main point, which was that ArbCom don't have the power to tell admins what to do. (I did use the word "unusual", but that was by way of introduction, linking my own point with Kingsindian's.) In that regard, it doesn't matter how the motion was worded; if it attempts to direct (or, as Sandstein puts it, attempts to "require") admins to perform this or that action, it's void, because ArbCom can't do that. Bishonen | talk 20:03, 4 February 2018 (UTC).[reply]

As one of the people on the Arbitration Committee when the October 2015 amendment was passed, my recollection of the intention was:
- A first violation of the restriction would result in a 1 month block.
- Subsequent violations would proceed onwards from that with blocks increasing in duration from the 1 month starting point.
From memory, it is well established that a redirect is not an article and that a prohibition on creating articles does not equal a prohibition on creating articles (or vice versa) unless explicitly noted otherwise. Again from memory, it is equally the case that changing a redirect into an article is creating an article. Moving text from one Wikipedia article to a new page, even if that is over a redirect, is creating a new article.

Whether a disambiguation page is an article or not is a much greyer area, and one that we definitely did not consider when drafting this restriction.

Given these I do not see any alternative but to impose a 1 month block, even though we did not foresee the restriction being gamed in this way.

I do not think that AE has the authority to impose a ban on redirect creation, that would need to come from either AN/I or ARCA (and any restriction placed at the former that is similar to or interacts with restrictions placed by arbcom should be noted on the talk page of his case so it's clear if/when arbcom next looks at the case). FWIW though I don't see a need to ban him from redirect creation unless there is a problem with them as redirects. He is already banned from creating articles, and changing a redirect to an article is creating an article. I can see value in clarifying whether a disambiguation page and/or set index is an article for the purposes of the restriction (I don't have a firm opinion at the moment when it either does or should), which unless anyone knows of clear precedent will have to come from ARCA. Thryduulf (talk) 15:42, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Kingsindian: Discretionary sanctions are indeed supposed to be discretionary, but these are not discretionary sanctions. These are specific restrictions placed on a specific user directly by the arbitration committee, discretionary sanctions are an authorisation for administrators to place restrictions, at their discretion, in relation to a specified topic area - neither the nature of the restriction nor the user(s) they are applied to are specified by the committee. Thryduulf (talk) 15:50, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Kingsindian: Looking back at my emails from the time, it seems I was the one to draft the remedy and I explicitly flagged it up to other arbitators in a message to the arbcom mailing list at the time of proposing the motion: "I've noted the enforcement of the two slightly differently, as (draft) article creation is always a deliberate act and so there should be no discretion about whether to block or not, the minimum duration is the length of his most recent one. It is however possible to accidentally move something to the wrong namespace, so I have deliberately left violations of that as "may" not "will" be blocked." [quoting my own words so there are no confidentiality, or privacy etc implications] There were following emails in the email thread I quote from but there was no comment about this, there was also no comment about it on-wiki from anybody. Yes it's unusual but entire point of the amendment was to force RAN to actually abide by the restrictions placed on him, or as Seraphimblade put it "The spirit (if not the letter) of the original ruling was that RAN was to help clean up the mess, that being, substantially work on the CCI, before returning to such activity, and that it would be wise for him to stay well clear of the line when it comes to copyright and nonfree material, not try to dance right along it."[51] Yet here were are again 2½ years later and he still hasn't got the point - regardless of whether it's bureaucracy or not I think a 1 month block is entirely justified on the merits of his actions. Thryduulf (talk) 16:47, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Kingsindian: The key point is that RAN was prohibited from creating new articles with no exceptions, unless and until his mess was cleared up, because by creating new articles he is making more mess. Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, the "must" nature of the restriction was put in place for the reasons I quoted - it was not thought possible to accidentally breach them (and I still don't think it is possible). For that reason I think that just because it has been 2½ years (not 4) since then is irrelevant. Thryduulf (talk) 18:46, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Bishonen: yes the "must" is unusual, but I've explained the reasons for it and it wasn't just arbs that didn't object, nobody objected despite plenty of opportunity at the time to do so. I also think that even if it wasn't phrased as a "must" that a 1-month block is justified for what is clearly an intentional gaming of the restrictions. Nothing in the wording permits creating any sort of article by any means. Also, AE does not have the remit to impose a ban from creating redirects in this case, and I don't think one would be justified even if it were. Thryduulf (talk) 18:46, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Bishonen: arbcom has the power to say how things should be enforced (blocks, ibans, G5, etc, etc), admins have the power to choose whether a sanction needs enforcing or not. In this case the sanction clearly says it is to be enforced with blocks starting at 1 month - i.e. if it is a violation then the enforcement for that violation is a block of 1 month or longer. The 1 month was not arbitrarily chosen - it's based on the length of his preceding block. There is no authority being exceeded here. And as I've said before, a 1 month block for this egregious violation is clearly warrented regardless of whether arbcom or AE chose that. Thryduulf (talk) 16:31, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we have the authority here to impose or modify a topic ban as nothing here is covered by discretionary sanctions. The language of the remedy is very clear and I find Thryduulf's reasoning above persuasive. I have therefore blocked Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) for one month. GoldenRing (talk) 17:04, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I object. Please keep this section open for a bit longer, as I'd like to respond to Thryduulf. We should try to form a consensus here. Bishonen | talk 17:33, 4 February 2018 (UTC).[reply]

By all means discuss further. I'll be a bit on-and-off this evening UTC but will try to check in every now and then. GoldenRing (talk) 17:41, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've posted in my own section above. Bishonen | talk 17:52, 4 February 2018 (UTC).[reply]

This is an interesting case. It does seem like gaming (creating a redirect, then making the same redirect into an article is functionally the same as creating an article, even if the text of the new article is drawn mostly from other articles). But this was not clearly spelled out. I agree with Bishonen that an indefinite ban from creating redirects, plus a warning to RAN that doing the same thing in the future will result in blocks, is sufficient. Neutrality^talk 17:53, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The one-month block was the minimum required by the remedy. If anything, it should have been longer, given the repeated misconduct and the user's response here. This is not discretionary sanctions, so we do not have discretion to invent any other sanction. Sandstein 19:04, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I still agree with Sandstein on process here. What usually "gives us the freedom to choose a sanction that best prevents disruption" at AE is discretionary sanctions; no DS are authorised here. Any ban imposed here would be immediately appealable as lacking authority. Only the community (at AN/ANI) or the committee (likely at ARCA) can impose a new ban or modify the ban here. And, per Thryduulf and Mendaliv's evidence, RAN has clearly been gaming the restriction in trivial ways. The block is richly merited. Because of the brazenness of it, I sort of agree with Sandstein that it should have been longer, but the month is what the committee mandated in the remedy. And though there is a history of breaking the restriction logged at the case page, that history is from before the amendment that mandates the one month block - so I think one month is the right duration here. GoldenRing (talk) 20:47, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On the meta question: per WP:ARBAE#Common sense in enforcement, a consensus of uninvolved administrators have the authority to close a report with no action on the ground that exceptional circumstances are present, which would make the imposition of a sanction inappropriate. That said, I do not perceive any such exceptional circumstance in this case.
The motion at issue provides that the initial block is to be for "at least one month" with no cap. I agree with Sandstein that this kind of obvious gaming should result in a longer block duration. AE doesn't have the authority to impose a redirect ban directly, but it might be imposable as an unblock condition; however, I don't see that as useful. The problem is RAN turning redirects into articles. Whether those redirects were created by him or by others is immaterial. T. Canens (talk) 21:24, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As to content inserted by RAN in violation of the restriction, given the reason for the sanction my view is that it should be assumed to contain copyright violations (and hence subject to deletion) unless another editor in good standing is willing to take responsibility for it (including any potential sanctions if the content is, in fact, found to contain a copyright violation). T. Canens (talk) 20:15, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree that the spirit of the sanction imposed was that RAN may not create articles. At least to my view, that would not include redirects, but would include anything more substantial than a redirect, including disambiguation pages and the like. However, I also agree on "having it both ways". If we're agreeing that redirects are not counted as articles, then changing a redirect into something more is creating an article. There's no exception based on where the material came from, the restriction wasn't "may not create articles unless the material used comes from another article". So far as length, I would agree that admins can always decide a block isn't warranted, and can't be forced to act. However, if blocked under the remedy as an AE action, the block must be at least the minimum length. Of course, an admin can block on their own accord for a shorter period of time, it just wouldn't count as an AE block in that case but rather as a normal block. In this case, though, I agree that a month is actually lenient, given the clear gaming. This was not some accidental or hypertechnical violation, it was a clear and deliberate one, and it's not the first one. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 21:57, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is an open and shut violation, and no amount of semantic gymnastics are going to change that. Extending the prohibition on article creation to also encompass redirects might be one solution, but I don't think we have the authority to do that here. We could also use our discretion here to turn a blind eye and close this with no further action, but given RAN's rather colourful history I'm not sure that the exceptional circumstances exist to do that. Support a block of between one to two months, and will close this discussion on that basis next few hours per the emerging consensus above if nobody objects before then. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 02:59, 5 February 2018 (UTC).[reply]

@Rusf10: I take your point, but on the other hand it is the first violation for a long time. I'd probably have hit harder with the blockhammer as well, but I don't see any compelling reason to pile on the pain beyond what my fellow admin User:Goldenring has already done (I won't object if GR feels it necessary to extend the block a little though). I should note that I intend with the closure to come up with some wording to block off this particular "loophole" for the avoidance of any future doubt. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:53, 5 February 2018 (UTC).[reply]

@Rusf10: You can try nominating themselves for CSD G5 if you like. It might pay to put an explanation in the tag pointing towards the case and to this discussion to assist the admin who assesses them. I'm not in a space right now where I can look at them myself. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 04:21, 5 February 2018 (UTC).[reply]

Apologies, I got distracted last night and wasn't able to do it. I'll fix it up on my lunch break if nobody else has by then. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 23:18, 5 February 2018 (UTC).[reply]

1) I agree with the block, the sanction was clear not to create articles, in any way. Saying "but they were redirects before" does not change the fact that there is an article there now where there was none before. 2) @Rusf10 and Lankiveil: I object to G5 being used to handle these articles. The redirects were not in violation of the sanction, so there is no "ban" to allow admins to delete the whole articles. Just revert them to the redirects they were before, which also serves our readers. While I am sympathetic with JFG's argument of WP:NOTBURO, keeping the articles would send the message that violations of sanctions will be tolerated if the content is good enough (of course, articles with significant edits by others are already exempt to G5 and thus also such a revert). Regards So Why 06:35, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Rusf10: I don't see that problem. If RAN returns and does that, I'm pretty sure he will be blocked again almost instantly because again, the spirit of the sanction is what's relevant, not the wording. Reverting a redirect back to the article he created is the same as creating the article anew. But if someone else wants to use that content and take responsibility, like Francis said above, they should be able to do so per WP:PRESERVE. Regards So Why 13:00, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is a fairly straightforward one month block. Creating a redirect and then converting it to an article is, effectively, creating an article - it doesn't matter how it's achieved. It would probably be useful to enact a topic ban on creating redirects so we don't end up here again. Black Kite (talk) 23:30, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @Black Kite: see discussion above - AE cannot impose a topic ban (of any sort) in this case, as this is not discretionary sanctions and topic bans were not authorised by arbcom. Also such a topic ban is not needed as the redirects are not problematic as redirects, RAN is already banned from creating articles and the consensus here is clearly that converting a redirect to an article is creating an article - if he does it again he'll be blocked again for longer than a month. Thryduulf (talk) 03:50, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

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