Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
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For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging
Appeal declined. There's no "clear and substantial consensus" of uninvolved admins to grant the appeal. T. Canens (talk) 00:42, 3 February 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by TheTimesAreAChangingI made a single normal edit to List of Trump–Russia dossier allegations, which I believe was mandated by BLP, at 19:54, 25 January 2018, after previously broaching the idea two days earlier and getting qualified support from My very best wishes. BullRangifer, the creator of the article and who has a very different perspective on these matters than I do, thanked me for my edit, later defending it on the talk page. The article was not under DS at the time; if it had been, I probably would have been less collaborative, as there were several paragraphs of "Commentary" (e.g., here) that I might have "challenged." (If possible—creating a new article without such sanctions is obviously a way to bypass them and force content through, if the content is considered "long-standing" by the time the sanctions are in force.) Yet SPECIFICO, who had no problem with the several paragraphs of opinion commentary, reverted my addition of the widely-reported testimony of Trump's longtime bodyguard, Keith Schiller, stating that "Statement of Trump's denial is sufficient." I disagreed, so I made a single normal revert at 07:19, 26 January. (To date, none of the editors in the ensuing discussion have agreed with SPECIFICO.) Ten hours later, after SPECIFICO inaccurately told Coffee that I had violated the article's non-existent DS at 17:39, Coffee added the template (including his brand-new "civility" requirement) at 17:43 and logged it at 17:45. While acknowledging that "I couldn't do more as the page restrictions hadn't been added to that article yet," Coffee still decided to place me on indefinite probation for violating the DS, which he apparently considered to take effect retroactively.
Floquenbeam, I honestly did not see that. I've stricken my comment above.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:25, 26 January 2018 (UTC) When SPECIFICO violated Discretionary Sanctions at Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections ([2], [3]), I warned her and she self-reverted. When I (inadvertently) violated Discretionary Sanctions (that had not been logged, with no edit notice), I returned to Wikipedia and suddenly found that SPECIFICO had reported me directly to Coffee and I had already been sanctioned, with no opportunity to respond. How is this sanction anything but punitive?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC) Mandruss, this comment really misses the mark. No, I didn't check the log, but I obviously wouldn't have made the edit if there had been an edit notice.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC) Here's the talk page as of the time of my revert: [4] I had not edited it, and there was not yet any discussion of the disputed content. Coffee could have easily asked me to self-revert before immediately imposing a new hard-to-understand restriction.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:26, 26 January 2018 (UTC) SPECIFICO and Volunteer Marek continue to misrepresent Coffee's stated rationale for the "probation" restriction, which is not that I violated any DS (none were logged for that page), but rather that I failed to preemptively go beyond the requirements of DS in seeking consensus before making any potentially controversial edits. By that standard, all of us could arbitrarily be put under "probation." Some admins say that, in fact, all of us already are under informal probation by virtue of editing in an area subject to DS, but—contrary to SPECIFICO's latest comment—I am deeply concerned that this "probation" is poorly understood and will probably be used against me in some arbitrary way at a later date even if it does not have any immediate effect. I also have grave concerns that Coffee's "Consensus Required" restriction itself outlaws normal BRD and has created a chilling effect in this topic area, and that his newly-invented "civility" restriction will further compound the problem.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:54, 28 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by CoffeeTrying to go to sleep but I have to correct what is being misrepresented here: The sanction was for a violation of overall WP:ARBAP2's standards of conduct. It was done under authority of WP:ARBAPDS which allow administrators the ability to apply sanctions at their discretion to anyone editing in the topic area. As this user was already made aware of the DS existing in the topic area, the sanction was made in full validity. It was not a sanction based on page restrictions. And my sanctioning of the article, after realizing it wasn't during the review I made, had nothing to do with the probation sanction placed on this user. This is made extremely clear in the sanction notice, and I feel this user is being obtuse. I also agree that this user has already violated the probation sanction (by the comments on their talk page), and I would personally levy a 24 hour block for such conduct. I however really, really need rest after today's events (some of you are aware of) and therefore will not be conducting that action. This is all I will state here for now. Good night/day folks. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 21:23, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by MrXTheTimesAreAChanging unambiguously violated the page restriction prohibiting reinstatement of any challenged (via reversion) edits without obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article. As surprised that I am that he received the lightest possible sanction, I'm actually shocked that he would have the audacity to appeal it. In my opinion,
Statement by SPECIFICOToTTAAC: Please don't misrepresent my actions by stating the article was not under the Consensus DS at the time you violated it. The history of the talk page clearly shows the DS in effect at that time. [5] Coffee later updated it to add the Civility Requirement. Please withdraw this appeal and if you edit according to policy you will have no further concerns. Frankly, given TTAAC's previous TBAN, his socking to evade the ban (necessitating in a block on top of the ban [6] and then his quickly-broken assurances that prompted Sandstein to reinstate him, "escalating sanctions" would suggest that a new TBAN would not be unexpected. It's therefore hard to see any problem with the probation imposed by Coffee. SPECIFICO talk 20:34, 26 January 2018 (UTC) Now I just saw that TTAAC is broadcasting the same disparagement of me and Coffee on the article talk page. Given that he just acknowledged awareness of the Civility Requirement, it seems that a new, second, violation of the DS has occurred as well as a violation of his Probation sanction. [7] @MjolnirPants and MrX: The new DS template added the Civility Restriction replacing the former template that already included the Consensus Restriction. [8] The Consensus Restriction was in effect at the time of the violation, plainly visible both at the time of the edit and at the time he denied and removed my request on his talk page that he undo the violation. SPECIFICO talk 21:33, 26 January 2018 (UTC) @DHeyward: I meant to ping you, not MP above. Sorry. You appear to have repeated TTAAC's misrepresentation of the Consensus Required sanction on that page when he made the offending edit. SPECIFICO talk 23:55, 26 January 2018 (UTC) I am not understanding TTAAC's basis for keeping this appeal open. Here [9] he concedes that he violated the Consensus Required sanction. He says "why wasn't I warned and asked to self-revert?" But here, I warned him six hours before he was sanctioned and asked him to self revert. And his response was to deny the violation, even after he was sanctioned: [10] It's pretty simple and for those who are not familiar with the difficulties of editing American Politics, this is an example of how much time can be wasted denying, discussing, and proving the obvious, all still apparently with no resolution. TTAAC, why not just withdraw the appeal. What basis is their for the appeal given the facts? SPECIFICO talk 00:21, 27 January 2018 (UTC) @Sandstein: RE: Probation - Types of Sanctions and WP:PROBATION. I can understand that you disagree with the particular sanction, but the violation of DS is clear and it's part of a long-term pattern of abuse. So I suggest that the solution, if you disapprove of the Probation sanction, would be to apply one you feel would be more suitable and effective. SPECIFICO talk 14:55, 27 January 2018 (UTC) @My very best wishes: Please see immediately above. SPECIFICO talk 17:42, 27 January 2018 (UTC) @My very best wishes: OK, you don't think that WP:PROBATION is meaningful. Is it the purpose of an appeal at this page to second-guess site norms? This is not even the claim the appellant makes. He seems to be going for "I am not actually a disruptive editor" -- i.e. that there's been an error of fact. But nobody's buying that one. So why not propose a different sanction. Sanctions are supposed to be escalating for repeat violations. His last one was an indefinite TBAN he slithered out of. He's wasted a lot of community time since then, routinely disparaging other editors (not least yourself) and failing to engage in collaborative editing. Do you suggest we just wait for the next reunion to rehash the same behaviors next time? SPECIFICO talk 18:40, 27 January 2018 (UTC) Some of the Admin comments don't appear to focus on the theory of this appeal or the powers of Admins in AE appeals. They read more like box seats at a command performance of ANI. TTAAC has not complained about the particular sanction that Coffee imposed. TTAAC has denied the violation. After all the trouble taken to refute this deflection, does any Admin still believe it's true? So we have an infraction, and in the case of this editor it's one of dozens that have been documented here over the course of the past +/- 16 months. Many of the editors who went to the trouble of providing diffs in those past cases, including the ones that resulted in sanctions, may well have concluded that there's no willingness to enforce DS, let alone escalating blocks, and so the editors with memory of all the bad behavior simply move on. I certainly am not going to waste a bright sunny day dredging up the history of this sad dysfunction and disruption. If you don't like the particular sanction, propose a more effective one. Which Admin is going to waste his or her time in the future exercising discretion when it's only a gateway to the Royal ANI here that AE has become? Otherwise, an AP3 Arbcom case will come sooner or later and what a regrettable outcome that will have been! SPECIFICO talk 18:08, 28 January 2018 (UTC) As so often happens at these AE threads, the appellant, given enough time, is hoisted with his own petard. In this diff [11] TTAAC says Statement by Steve QuinnOn the article's talk page, several editors have indeed noted that remedies and sanctions were in place when TTAC restored the material (without consensus):
So, in a manner of speaking, this was an opportunity for TTAC to undo their edit rather seek an appeal. As was noted below, this is now an opportunity to undo the edit and withdraw the appeal, or simply withdraw the appeal and save time. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 06:14, 27 January 2018 (UTC) Actually, I meant, it seems there was an opportunity for TTAC to undo their edit, and thereby collaboratively participate, before an Admin felt the need to sanction him/her. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 06:32, 27 January 2018 (UTC)` The focus here is not BRD. The focus here is editing according to consensus rules. Anyone who has edited on WP:ARBAP2 pages for any reasonable length of time knows about this. It seems all the non-admins on this page are experienced in the WP:ARBAP2 area. And in this instance there were warnings from other editors that went unheeded. I also wish to commend Coffee for watching this area in order to keep the peace in a forthright and reasonable manner. Coffee seems to have explained what probation is supposed to be. And I think this is better than an outright topic ban or a block, imho. I don't know what other option there is? imho. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 02:58, 29 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by Volunteer MarekWith regard to TTAAC's action I don't think there is any doubt that they violated the DS. TTAAC is also quite aware of how this works, as they've been sanctioned for this before, they've brought reports against others, they've commented widely on DS in this topic area, etc. There's basically no way they did not know they were breaking a DS. So TTAC broke DS. It looks to me like User:Coffee was trying to be nice about it. I'm guessing because he previously caught some slack for being heavy handed (including from me). So he imposed the "probation" instead of an outright topic ban, probably hoping that'd result in less controversy. But sometimes, with some people... you give an inch, they try to take a mile. That's what's going on with this appeal. In my understanding a "probation" is essentially a "soft" topic ban from a particular article. By that I mean that the user is not outright banned from an article, and may continue to edit it, but at any time, if any uninvolved admin thinks they're not acting in good faith, then the ban hammer comes down. It's basically a "continue to edit this article at your own risk" kind of restriction. I have no idea who came up with this. I don't like it. But that's just my view, and this is indeed one of the proscribed remedies over at WP:EDR, so it was perfectly fine for Coffee to use it. And regardless in this particular case, some kind of sanction was warranted, and Coffee, rather than being criticized should be commended for trying to be diplomatic and "soft". But as always on Wikipedia, no good deed... Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC) Let me also suggest that IF you're going to grant this appeal (whether outright, or replace the probation with a straight up topic ban) then please, somebody go and make the necessary changes to WP:EDR so this web of bureaucratic policies and sanctions doesn't get even more discombobulated.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:21, 28 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by JFGOh God such wikilawyering! Cut the drama, vacate the sanction, and trout SPECIFICO for their propension to snitch on fellow editors. — JFG talk 11:24, 29 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by Seraphim System
NOTE: This was moved here by Coffee with this edit summary [23] Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging
Overturn. It's another case where we shouldn't be here. It's arguably a necessary edit as a BLP required NPOV presentation. Blanking would also be arguably necessary if sourced, exculpatory statements are not presented. The fact that page wasn't under sanction the entire time is just more grist. Remove "probation" as it's just a setup for any type of future complaint. It solves nothing and only provides an excuse for a flimsy future topic-ban. If anything, convert it to a "reminder." --DHeyward (talk) 21:16, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
@TheTimesAreAChanging:
Result of the appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging
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Doc9871
Both Doc9871 and Ihardlythinkso are indefinitely blocked. --NeilN talk to me 18:02, 30 January 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Doc9871
Ihardlythinkso (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has also violated his topic ban immediately after coming off a block for violating his topic ban. See his talk page and contributions. If it's not obvious, go ahead and ignore it. I can't waste any more time digging for diffs on these two.
Discussion concerning Doc9871Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Doc9871Statement by OIDSee also my talk page here. Doc despite having a retired tag on their userpage was editing while logged out (prior to their block) in violation of their topic ban. You couldn't claim they were avoiding scrutiny since they were openly admitting their primary account, but its clear they have no intention of abiding by their topic ban when they have a soapbox to climb up on and be disruptive. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:01, 30 January 2018 (UTC) Comment by GoodDayRecommend that IHTS & Doc's blocks remain at 2 weeks & not extended to 3 months each, as has been suggested. A block in progress, shouldn't be extended, IMHO. Oh btw, I briefly commented at IHTS's talkpage, in his discussion with Doc, but then reverted my comment. Wasn't aware until now, that they were under topic-bans & so didn't want them to respond to my comment there, only to get themselves into more trouble. GoodDay (talk) 15:53, 30 January 2018 (UTC) As a member of WP:RETENTION, it saddens me to see that we've lost 2 editors, today. However, it must always be remembered, ours is a community of privileges not rights. When you use up those privileges? the result is inevitable. GoodDay (talk) 17:58, 30 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Doc9871
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EEng
In view of Coffee's break,[32] I'm closing this with no action. Bishonen | talk 16:05, 2 February 2018 (UTC). |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning EEng
diff 1, diff 2, diff 3, diff 4, diff 5, diff 6, diff 7 - these are some of the most egregious violations I've seen... at one point even saying they wanted to see tweets and tabloid coverage
07:21, 12 June 2015 The ed17 (talk | contribs | block) blocked EEng (talk | contribs) with an expiration time of 31 hours (account creation blocked) (Disruptive editing and personal attacks on WT:DYK) This isn't their first rodeo at disruptive behavior at DYK
User is clearly aware: [33]
There are other users involved here, but this user has given the inch I gave them and took it a mile. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 05:28, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning EEngStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by EEng
EEng 08:35, 2 February 2018 (UTC) Statement by WBG
Statement by Cullen328Coffee needs to develop the ability to distinguish between jokes and actually disruptive edits. EEng should be cautious about joking in highly contentious topic areas. I do not see any sanctionable conduct by EEng. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:52, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Statement by MendalivNo action required: There is a point where we go from ensuring reasonable dialogue remains alive and unmarred by political extremism on Wikipedia, and venture into truly "no fun allowed" land. EEng's sense of humor is well known, highly appreciated, and extraordinarily valuable. And yes, my friends, American politics is a place where we are allowed to have fun. The whole purpose of this project is volunteers making an encyclopedia because they enjoy doing it. The only action appropriate is to deny the DYK hook as "not a good idea", and that is frankly probably outside the jurisdiction of AE. But EEng's effort here is actually quite valuable insofar as it ensures the discussion of whether the extreme protections of AP2 are fully necessary. No, we must ask these questions and keep asking these questions. Where we disagree and dissent with editorial and policy decisions, we must be able to do so without being dragged to this newest drama board. The purpose of AP2—indeed, every DS—is to terminate actual disruption and to prevent further actual disruption. Not to preempt disruption, nor even to prevent editorial arguments, and certainly not to silence dissent. I believe Coffee is acting in good faith, but that he should reassess the fundamental reasons for these protective regimes. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 06:04, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Statement by David EppsteinI wrote something like this on my talk page earlier this evening when Coffee showed up there to remind me of this AE case, but I'll repeat it here: Cutting short talk-page discussions that are about whether something is in policy by unilaterally declaring that it is not, because you say so and that anyone who disagrees will get blocked (i.e. what Coffee has been doing) does not meet my definition of appropriate behavior by an administrator, nor is it what the sort of action requested here should be used for. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:19, 2 February 2018 (UTC) Statement by Seraphim SystemThese are not BLP violations. Donald Trump is a public figure. Regarding the addition to the main page, the editors wisely came up with the Alt 6 option where the image is sufficient to avoid any BLP implications. They exercised extreme caution and good judgment in taking this precaution.Seraphim System (talk) 06:38, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Statement by GalobtterI don't see any reason to shut down the discussion at Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Trump_Street or elsewhere (discussion about whether something violates a policy or not, is not something that needs to be stopped), nor is wanting to see tweets about it bad. Galobtter (pingó mió) 06:58, 2 February 2018 (UTC) Statement by LegacypacTrump is a public figure so BLP applies differently. EEng is well known for his good humour. No action is necessary here and Coffee should be more careful since they wear an Admin hat. The chilling comment posted and the edit summary here [45] is inappropriate and potentially actionable. Why is a 400 year old London Street under US Politocs since 1932 DS anyway? That's just wrong. Legacypac (talk) 07:04, 2 February 2018 (UTC) Statement by DHeywardNothing about this improves the encyclopedia. If a DYK is divisive, it needs to be dropped. It's really simple. --DHeyward (talk) 07:23, 2 February 2018 (UTC) Statement by Ritchie333
Statement by Randy KrynI was going to comment on the original topic, the interesting DYK idea which was original and not at all controversial, but the section had already been shut down and I assumed that someone had moved it over to the April Fools nomination page. In missing it I guess I also missed a chance to be included in the watchful eye of Coffee, who had put one of those giant warning templates on my page just a couple of days ago apparently because, looking at edit history, I had added two names to the FBI template under the section "People". The discussion about the April Fools DYK nomination was about an innocent and appealing twist on the current rage in the states to blame Russia for everything regardless of background information, and the going on two-year effort to tie the nation's president into what seems to be a false and unraveling narrative. Street names do not a violation make, especially in an April Fool's DYK discussion. I see creativity and good nature all around in this case, and no violation. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:56, 2 February 2018 (UTC) Statement by LepricavarkI don't much care for the fact that when it comes to Donald Trump, seemingly almost anything goes on this site. We need to do a better job of fostering a climate that is welcoming to all editors, conservative, liberal, or otherwise. That being said, given that pretty much anything has gone up to this point, I don't think it's fair to specifically sanction EEng. Lepricavark (talk) 13:48, 2 February 2018 (UTC) Statement by MjolnirPantsCoffee used his admin tools to win a content argument, and now is trying to levy a sanction against an editor he clearly dislikes, instead of the editor responsible for the content in question or any of the other editors who contributed more vociferously to that discussion than EEng (including me). For those of you who recall me berating people for their abuse of Coffee last week, you may be surprised to know that I'm seriously considering asking ArbCom to desysop him over this, and I know I'm not the only one. This is one the single most egregious misuse of the tools I have seen in my years on this site. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:56, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Davey2010Personally I think the whole thing was handled in a very heavy way - Whilst I appreciate we all need to abide by DS restrictions and all that at the same time the main DYK page was kept civil and as far as I know on point ..... talkpage on the other hand was repeatedly derailed by various things so maybe that page should've been locked instead of the the main DYK page, Coffee (and others) disagreed with the DYK (and that's fine) but as Coffee opened the discussion on the talkpage (and then closed it repeatedly) IMHO he shouldn't of locked the DYK page nor should he of re-closed the talkpage - I'm just going to be honest but I feel Coffee disagreed with the hook and he used the DS stuff as well as his admin tools to "win the dispute" or atleast find a way for the hook to not go further - If he cared that much he would've done the DS stuff right from the start but he only chose to do so a good day or so later, I think it's fair to say EEng was quite rightly frustrated with it all as was everyone else and in reality if he's being reported here then each and every contributor to that DYK/TP should also be here but that all being said I'm not seeing any violations or really anything worth caring about - EEng, myself and others have all said their peace and I think it's best if this gets closed as No Action - What's been said has been said and what's been done's been done. –Davey2010Talk 13:57, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Statement by SPECIFICOViews and sensitivities about Trump are polarized and intransigent, pro and con. If even 20% of our readers find a Trump joke offensive or inappropriate or "biased" that's clearly unacceptable and can only undermine WP's mission. As to enforcement, it seems to me the real problem with DS/AE is not that Coffee is trying to do his job. It's that so few other Admins are joining him. If another dozen Admins were actively engaged in keeping American Politics policy-compliant, we wouldn't have all the personal disparagement of Coffee every time he tries to do the right thing. And none of his adversaries and critics here should be casting the first stone. SPECIFICO talk 14:51, 2 February 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning EEng
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Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Rusf10 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 02:47, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )#Amendments :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- December 18, 2017 Page was created by RAN as redirect
- February 3, 2018 Page was converted from a redirect to an article in violation of RAN's topic ban on article creation.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- September 26, 2013 added link to external website where he contributed, resulted in two week ban
- March 10, 2014- created article in violation of ban, resulting in one month ban.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see above diffs.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Richard Arthur Norton (1958-) (RAN) creates scores of redirects everyday. While it is not clear that creating a redirect would be a violation of his ban on article creation since a redirect technically is not an article, what he did today was clearly a violation. About two months ago he created the page Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey as a redirect. Today he converted that redirect into an article. No other user edited the article between these two revisions.
- @Awilley:That is an accurate summary of events, nothing is left out. RAN's explanation is extremely misleading. When he split the information out of the other article it was information exclusively authored by him. Only a minor edit was made by another user. So basically he's trying to sidestep his ban by writing an article within another article and then spinning it out. According to him, that's not creating a new article, I think it clearly is.--Rusf10 (talk) 08:30, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Mendaliv:- Thank you for providing those diffs. They prove that this is not an isolated incident and RAN knew exactly what he was doing. RAN is clearly gaming the system and going forward he should be banned from creating redirects too.--Rusf10 (talk) 16:51, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Lankiveil:I object to only a one month block, due to the fact that RAN clearly knew what he was doing and was gaming the system. It's not like this was an isolated incident,Mendaliv provided evidence that he did this multiple times. This is his MO, he's always pushing the boundaries. Just like he tried to do with replacing deleted articles with wikidata entries, see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#RfC: Linking to wikidata I support a longer block as per User:Sandstein, User:Timotheus Canens, & User:Seraphimblade.--Rusf10 (talk) 03:45, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Lankiveil:, okay I see what you're saying and I trust you and User:GoldenRing will use good judgement, but I just want to see if the other admins agree with the length of the block or not. Another question, will any of these three pages RAN created be deleted? As per the arbitration case "The article or draft article may be speedily deleted under criterion G5 by any administrator." Or do I need to take them to AfD?--Rusf10 (talk) 04:20, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Francis Schonken, JFG, Lankiveil, and SoWhy:- I think its okay to return the articles to a redirect, however the previous revisions still should be deleted. I can envision RAN coming back after his block and just reverting the pages again to his preferred version and then saying I didn't create an article, I just reverted. I say delete the articles and if another user wants them, they can request the deleted version and recreate it themselves with the understanding that they will take full responsibility for its content.--Rusf10 (talk) 12:28, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Norton
I made a valid redirect to the larger article. I created content in an existing article. Another editor trimmed the large block. I split the information from an existing article into a redirect in one edit, so not undue. No new article was created with new content, information was migrated to the list from an existing article in a valid article split. --RAN (talk) 02:51, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Beyond My Ken
In his statement, just above, Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) appears to want to have things both ways. He is forbidden by his sanctions to create articles, but he creates redirects on the theory -- which I believe is justified -- that a redirect is not an article. However, he also wants to be allowed to convert those redirects into articles under the theory that in doing so he is not creating an article, simply adding information to an existing article (the redirect). Well, it can't be both things at the same time. Either the redirect is or isn't an article. If a redirect is an article, then RAN routinely violates his sanctions when he creates redirects (i.e. articles). If it isn't an article, then making it into an article is creating an article where none existed before. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:59, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- Concerning DHeyward's complaint: it is not the job of admins at AE to alter or overrule editorial sanctions applied by ArbCom, but instead their purpose is to adjudicate any reported violations of those sanctions, which -- at least in my analysis --this one clearly is. Thus, determining that RAN's action did or did not harm Wikipedia is outside the proper purview of AE, and DHeyward's "which actions hurt the project" is something of a strawman -- although one can say with some certainty that editors not following their sanctions inherently harms the project by undermining the authority of ArbCom to place sanctions, by encouraging other editors to decide that they, too, do not have to follow their sanctions, and by devaluing the work of those who edit without being sanctioned. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:08, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- Question to Awilley - Just to clear up an ambiguity, does your query "Am I missing anything" means "Do I have all the facts on this matter?", or does it mean "What am I missing here that qualifies this as a violation of a sanction?" Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:11, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
Statement by DHeyward
No complaint has merit on process alone. Per NOtBURO, which actions hurt the project? I see no diffs presented that hurt the project and without them, sanctions of any kind are unwarranted. --DHeyward (talk) 07:10, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Mendaliv
BMK has it right here:
- The page "Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey" was created as a redirect by RAN.
- The page "Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey" ceased to be a redirect when RAN next edited it.
- The page "Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey" was an article at the time of the second edit, and no other editors edited it in the meantime.
If creating redirects is fine, then replacing a redirect with content is creating an article. If replacing redirects with content is fine, then creating a redirect is creating an article. Thus, RAN created an article, though we can't say for certain whether it was at the first or second edit.
As to the comment by DHeyward, I believe the reviewing admins have no discretion not to block RAN once it's determined he's created an article.
Bonus: Resolving a possible ambiguity in the language of the remedy and enforcement provisions
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At the very least, it's clear that the first violation under Remedy 2.3 must result in a block. Subsequent violations, it is technically ambiguous, and "then proceeding per the enforcement provisions" could mean that, after the first violation, enforcement is per what the enforcement provision says, which gives discretion not to block. However, the placement of a comma after "will result in a block" can indicate that this phrase is syntactically connected to "proceeding per the enforcement provisions". Logically, it strikes me as pretty clear the Committee meant the "proceeding per" to refer to the duration rather than implying a flow-chart like movement. Another wrinkle: The last logged action in the RAN case was in March 2014, prior to the enactment of Remedy 2.3. As such, arguably, the current request is for the very first sanction under that remedy, which is unquestionably mandatory. Of course, the operative language is "of at least one month". That is, it can be more, according to the reviewing admins' discretion. |
The TL;DR is that even if the result is that whether to block or how much to block is per the reviewing admins' discretion, it doesn't mean they need a compelling reason for that decision. Just that they can't abuse their discretion when making that decision. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 08:44, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
Update: On a hunch, I ran a search of RAN's contribs with the tag filter, mw-removed-redirect
, which displays all contribs where he removed a redirect from a page. There were six instances of this tag in total. While there were some innocuous cases, there were also ones that were probably violations of the remedy in the same way as Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey:
- Mayor of Chatham, New Jersey: created 2 Jan as a redir, redir removed 3 Jan (there were a great many subsequent edits adding more content).
- Sáenz: created 8 Dec as a redir, redir removed two minutes later (!!!). In particular, I note that the unreadable content appear to be copied-and-pasted blurbs from the ledes of numerous Wikipedia articles, without proper attribution to those articles. While the "article" created is a dab page, I think this, more than any of the others, is a violation given the original case had to do with copyright issues.
I don't think we're in "this was a one-time error of judgment" territory anymore. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 10:35, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Bishonen and Dennis Brown: I won't say I'm not sympathetic; I think, in general, admins carrying out actions should have some discretion to consider something to be inconsequential. Part of the problem is the way the remedy is written (and as Thryduulf has made abundantly clear, this was intentional and designed such that enforcement would be nondiscretionary). I understand that normally AE is where we deal with requests for applying DS, and as such the practices here are such that reviewing admins will try to come up with creative ways of preventing further disruption. But this isn't one of those cases, and as such the procedure is different. With regard to the ambiguity concern I noted above, had there been any actual grumbling about whether the inconsistent phrasing was intentional or a scrivener's error, I would have suggested that this be referred to ARCA on something similar to a "certified question" process; that is, someone would open an ARCA asking only whether blocking under the remedy was mandatory if there was a consensus that there was a violation.Again, I'm not unsympathetic. As I grumbled quite vocally yesterday at AC/N in regards to a community-imposed restriction that would supposedly automatically kick in were the editor in question unblocked, I believe that prospective/conditional sanctions are generally a bad idea and should be considered suggestions. However, when the sanction is crafted by the Committee after deliberation and is voted on by a quorum of arbitrators, I believe the usual concerns I have regarding such "consensus preempting" are significantly less than with an AN/ANI discussion. My suggestion would be, if RAN believes the mandatory nature of the block is unfair along these lines, he should immediately open an ARCA asking for the Committee to reconsider. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 18:21, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
Statement by SN54129
Mendaliv's diffs are pretty convclusive on what the curent affair hinges on, viz. whether RAN's actions were accidental and isolated, or deliberate and ubiquitous. For the future, it might be worth considering the extension of the current topic-ban (or a re-definition) to include the creation of redirects as well as articles. If nothing else, it would remove the temptation to then expand the redirect into an article, which, it would seem, is so strong. >SerialNumber54129...speculates 13:10, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Kingsindian
This is the first time I have heard of a provision that says a user must be blocked for a violation. Such a provision makes a mockery of "discretionary sanctions", which are supposed to be, um, discretionary.
Here's what happened here. There was an edge case which was used (or abused, depending on one's POV) by RAN. His last violation was 4 years ago. There was no attempt to discuss this matter with RAN prior to coming here. No damage happened to the encyclopedia.
Instead of draconian months-long sentences, it would be better to warn them that this loophole cannot be exploited in the future, and let it go. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:34, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Thryduulf: My mistake about the DS part, however that just shifts the question elsewhere. Why did ArbCom phrase its motion as "must be blocked", which is highly unusual, to say the least? The original remedy uses a standard language of a topic ban. Violating a topic ban does not result in a "must be blocked no matter what" situation. In the discussion, I see no Arb even commenting on this very unusual provision.
The whole situation is absurd. I have enough experience with ArbCom to know that they're capable of writing remedies which nobody understands, not even they. I call for IAR and NOTBURO here, and a swift change in the absurd wording. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 16:27, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Thryduulf: Let us separate out two things. First: what must be done, and second: what, in your opinion, should be done. You wrote the very unusual remedy saying that the block must be instituted. I don't think that was wise, but that's beside the point. I realize that Arbs can do whatever they want, but I leave it to any normal person to decide if a violation 4 years after the last sanction should result in an unconditional 1 month block. I think it is self-evidently absurd, but I won't argue the point.
As for the "spirit" of the motion, the motion said that unless RAN cleans up their mess, their topic ban won't be lifted. They haven't, and it hasn't. Besides that, you can't really control what any editor does on Wikipedia (except banning them completely). If the motion's intention was to force RAN to do nothing except clean up their mess, then it should have been written directly. I think that we can conclude that many years after the fact, the desired behavior will not happen. This situation should be accepted, rather than harassing RAN over unrelated things into doing something he clearly doesn't want to do. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 17:03, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Thryduulf: Let us separate out two things. First: what must be done, and second: what, in your opinion, should be done. You wrote the very unusual remedy saying that the block must be instituted. I don't think that was wise, but that's beside the point. I realize that Arbs can do whatever they want, but I leave it to any normal person to decide if a violation 4 years after the last sanction should result in an unconditional 1 month block. I think it is self-evidently absurd, but I won't argue the point.
Statement by JFG
Irrespective of the circumstances leading to creation of those pages by a user who was supposed not to, the articles are well-sourced and inherently encyclopedic. They would surely survive AfD, hence should not be deleted for administrative reasons (WP:CSD#G5 was suggested). We are not a bureaucracy. — JFG talk 04:55, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Francis
- Re. Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey:
- I reverted the article to a redirect, that is a redirect to Monmouth County, New Jersey#Sheriffs.
- I kept Category:Sheriffs of Monmouth County, New Jersey as a category on the redirect, moving all other content to the Monmouth County, New Jersey article.
- In that article I placed a {{Split portions}} tag under the Monmouth County, New Jersey#Sheriffs section header, suggesting to split portions of that section to Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey. The Split portions tag contains a "discuss" link to Talk:Monmouth County, New Jersey if the proposed split needs further discussion.
- Reasoning: G5 delete is not mandated, but returning to a redirect seems best (per SoWhy and others). Per the original RAN case, any editor may assume responsibility for content created by RAN: I did so by placing it in the Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey article, where I expect it to be edited (especially trimmed) mercilessly and/or to be split out again (e.g. to Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey). I leave that responsibility to others (e.g. JFG feel free to adopt the content created by RAN, by undoing all my edits to both Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey and Sheriff of Monmouth County, New Jersey – I'd keep a somewhat longer "summary" of the Sheriff article at the Sheriff section in the Monmouth County article though, than the merely two sentences that used to be there) while the content intricacies are a bit far out of my league. It is also possible to revert this edit by RAN where he decimated the Sheriff section in the Monmouth County article, replacing the bulk of its content by a {{See}} link to their newly created article (e.g. Rusf10, if you'd feel the extended content I now placed there is too extended it is perfectly possible to return the content of that section to the state before RAN messed with it). AFAICS none of these actions, nor the ones I did on these two articles, nor the ones I proposed or suggested, need admin (and even less AE) intervention: regular editing processes can take over from here. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:54, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Rusf10: Re. "I can envision RAN coming back after his block and just reverting the pages again to his preferred version ... " – I understand. Reasonably, RAN could support the split by saying so at Talk:Monmouth County, New Jersey (if nobody performed the split before they come out of their block). The scenario you portray may:
- happen before anyone else converted the redirect to an article: in that case RAN is up for an incremental block I suppose.
- happen after someone else converted the redirect to an article: nothing to be done at AE I suppose (unless RAN fell short of any other remedies of their ArbCom case in the process). As for the extent of the Sheriff-related content in both articles, use normal methods to come to an agreement. If you need help arranging, trimming or extending content, just ask me or, preferably, someone more versed in this type of content. If needed, after trying other routes, escalate to ArbCom.
- In other words, I suppose I understand that admins don't want to overreach in this AE procedure. Whether or not the current redirect is deleted makes little difference IMHO, anyone could pick the content up from the (revision history) of the article where I moved it. Also taking the current redirect to WP:RfD would be possible: I suppose, however, that most admins would consider a delete merely as a result of this AE procedure (i.e. without taking other steps) as inactionable. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:56, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Rusf10: Re. "I can envision RAN coming back after his block and just reverting the pages again to his preferred version ... " – I understand. Reasonably, RAN could support the split by saying so at Talk:Monmouth County, New Jersey (if nobody performed the split before they come out of their block). The scenario you portray may:
Statement by Justlettersandnumbers
I'm not familiar with the history here, and this may not be the right place to raise this anyway. At a very quick first glance, what I see is:
- A large open contributor copyright investigation, more than six years old
- Unattributed copying of Wikipedia content in the original diff supplied by Rusf10
- Unattributed copying of Wikipedia content, as noted by Mendaliv, at Sáenz
- Full, detailed and patient explanation of the need for attribution on RAN's talk-page in 2011 – e.g., here
- Unattributed copy-pasting from a Public Domain source with this edit.
That's in a few minutes of looking. Those three problems are all quite easily fixed, but they raise serious concerns that all of RAN's edits since the CCI was opened in 2011 (of which there seem to be around 60000) may also need to be scrutinised. It looks as if admins should consider whether he should be blocked indefinitely to prevent the possibility of any further damage to the project. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 01:44, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- The request has merit. Creating a redirect and then making this redirect into an article is creating an article. I would impose a two-month block, doubling the previous block duration. Sandstein 06:59, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- Based on Mendaliv's evidence, I'm now considering imposing a six-month block. The evidence shows that Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) has repeatedly violated his restriction, and particularly in the case of Sáenz his conduct reflects some of the reasons why the restriction was imposed: this is the state he left the article he created in, which is not only a copyvio for copypasting Wikipedia content without attribution, but is also badly formatted and contains weird timestamps. Sandstein 10:50, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- Let me get this straight. RAN creates a redirect on December 18, 2017 [47]. On February 2, 2018 he adds a new section to the target article and makes many edits to it. [48] On February 3 another user makes some minor formatting changes to the section. [49] 13 hours later RAN cuts the new section out of the article and pastes it to populate the redirect. [50] Am I missing anything? ~Awilley (talk) 07:52, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- Based on the research by Mendaliv above and the clarifications by Thryduulf below I think the one-month block is the best path forward, although I agree with Bish about mandated sanctions. I oppose a ban on the creation of redirects as they are harmless and have nothing to do with the copyvios that got RAN here in the first place. I think the block will be sufficient warinng that gaming the system by turning redirects into articles is inappropriate and will result in further blocks. ~Awilley (talk) 18:40, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Beyond My Ken: it was the former. ~Awilley (talk) 23:13, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- Based on the research by Mendaliv above and the clarifications by Thryduulf below I think the one-month block is the best path forward, although I agree with Bish about mandated sanctions. I oppose a ban on the creation of redirects as they are harmless and have nothing to do with the copyvios that got RAN here in the first place. I think the block will be sufficient warinng that gaming the system by turning redirects into articles is inappropriate and will result in further blocks. ~Awilley (talk) 18:40, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- This looks an obvious violation and, per Mendaliv, the remedy appears to require a one month block. My gut feeling is to say, "don't do it again," but is the option open to us? GoldenRing (talk) 09:12, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with Sandstein that Mendaliv's evidence shows RAN obviously circumventing his restriction. A long block is in order. GoldenRing (talk) 13:04, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
This is an obvious violation. A block would be justified, but I am wondering if we need to do a two week block plus a editing ban for creating redirects, since that is what got us here. I think this is within our authority and doesn't require ARCA. This would effectively prevent him from creating any page in main space and would be easy to enforce and addresses the long term problem more effectively.Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:01, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- What would be the authority for a ban on creating redirects? Also, as noted by Mendaliv above, it appears we are required to impose at least a one-moth block. Sandstein 15:04, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- And even if it were authorized, a redirect ban would be the wrong choice. Creating redirects, as such, is not the problem here. Creating articles is. And that is already banned. Sandstein 15:20, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
The authority is that AE gives us the freedom to choose a sanction that best prevents disruption, so by my estimation, we are absolutely authorized to use that as a sanction. A ban on redirects could have been done at ANI for that matter. I get why there might be some resistance, but my goal is to prevent the restrictions from being gamed, which looks to be the case here.Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:43, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- That is not strictly true. Please read the Enforcement provision of the applicable case. That is what applies to arbitration enforcement related to this restriction. ~ Rob13Talk 20:07, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- Reading it strictly, I see what you mean. It does seem that Arb has hamstrung us into only using blocks as a sanction, which is a pity as I don't feel that is the best solution and I'm not alone in this. This is obviously a situation that Arb did not foresee, and yet here we are. That said, there is an obvious violation, and Sandstein's suggestion of a two month block, twice the previous, would be the only available sanction. Or we could dismiss it, but we don't really have any other options. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:04, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- Per WP:NOTPUNITIVE, I'm in favour of just an indefinite ban from creating redirects, plus a warning to the user that any further attempt to game any of his bans will result in a long block. But if that's not viewed favorably, I'll support Dennis's suggestion as my second option. Bishonen | talk 14:26, 4 February 2018 (UTC).
- GoldenRing has now imposed a one-month block. We may end up there, but it should preferably not be done while we're still talking, and I particularly don't think it should be done per Thryduulf's reasoning. The ArbCom of 2015, as voiced by Thryduulf, wrote in this motion that "Any article or draft article created contrary to this restriction will result in a block" (my italics), and I see Kingsindian protesting above against this unusual wording. It's not just unusual, it also goes beyond ArbCom's remit, if it's intended the way it sounds, i. e. if it's intended to order admins to perform such a block. ArbCom can't tell admins what to do, they have to ask nicely. The fact that no other arb protested, as Thryduulf mentions below, doesn't make the motion the Stone Tablets, and it's not correct that we (=uninvolved admins here, or indeed any other admins) have 'no alternative but to impose a 1 month block'. Admins always have an alternative. They can do nothing, for instance, or they can impose a milder sanction. Bishonen | talk 17:52, 4 February 2018 (UTC).
- Thryduulf, you don't seem to be answering my main point, which was that ArbCom don't have the power to tell admins what to do. (I did use the word "unusual", but that was by way of introduction, linking my own point with Kingsindian's.) In that regard, it doesn't matter how the motion was worded; if it attempts to direct (or, as Sandstein puts it, attempts to "require") admins to perform this or that action, it's void, because ArbCom can't do that. Bishonen | talk 20:03, 4 February 2018 (UTC).
- GoldenRing has now imposed a one-month block. We may end up there, but it should preferably not be done while we're still talking, and I particularly don't think it should be done per Thryduulf's reasoning. The ArbCom of 2015, as voiced by Thryduulf, wrote in this motion that "Any article or draft article created contrary to this restriction will result in a block" (my italics), and I see Kingsindian protesting above against this unusual wording. It's not just unusual, it also goes beyond ArbCom's remit, if it's intended the way it sounds, i. e. if it's intended to order admins to perform such a block. ArbCom can't tell admins what to do, they have to ask nicely. The fact that no other arb protested, as Thryduulf mentions below, doesn't make the motion the Stone Tablets, and it's not correct that we (=uninvolved admins here, or indeed any other admins) have 'no alternative but to impose a 1 month block'. Admins always have an alternative. They can do nothing, for instance, or they can impose a milder sanction. Bishonen | talk 17:52, 4 February 2018 (UTC).
- As one of the people on the Arbitration Committee when the October 2015 amendment was passed, my recollection of the intention was:
- A first violation of the restriction would result in a 1 month block.
- Subsequent violations would proceed onwards from that with blocks increasing in duration from the 1 month starting point.
- From memory, it is well established that a redirect is not an article and that a prohibition on creating articles does not equal a prohibition on creating articles (or vice versa) unless explicitly noted otherwise. Again from memory, it is equally the case that changing a redirect into an article is creating an article. Moving text from one Wikipedia article to a new page, even if that is over a redirect, is creating a new article.
- Whether a disambiguation page is an article or not is a much greyer area, and one that we definitely did not consider when drafting this restriction.
- Given these I do not see any alternative but to impose a 1 month block, even though we did not foresee the restriction being gamed in this way.
- I do not think that AE has the authority to impose a ban on redirect creation, that would need to come from either AN/I or ARCA (and any restriction placed at the former that is similar to or interacts with restrictions placed by arbcom should be noted on the talk page of his case so it's clear if/when arbcom next looks at the case). FWIW though I don't see a need to ban him from redirect creation unless there is a problem with them as redirects. He is already banned from creating articles, and changing a redirect to an article is creating an article. I can see value in clarifying whether a disambiguation page and/or set index is an article for the purposes of the restriction (I don't have a firm opinion at the moment when it either does or should), which unless anyone knows of clear precedent will have to come from ARCA. Thryduulf (talk) 15:42, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Kingsindian: Discretionary sanctions are indeed supposed to be discretionary, but these are not discretionary sanctions. These are specific restrictions placed on a specific user directly by the arbitration committee, discretionary sanctions are an authorisation for administrators to place restrictions, at their discretion, in relation to a specified topic area - neither the nature of the restriction nor the user(s) they are applied to are specified by the committee. Thryduulf (talk) 15:50, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Kingsindian: Looking back at my emails from the time, it seems I was the one to draft the remedy and I explicitly flagged it up to other arbitators in a message to the arbcom mailing list at the time of proposing the motion: "I've noted the enforcement of the two slightly differently, as (draft) article creation is always a deliberate act and so there should be no discretion about whether to block or not, the minimum duration is the length of his most recent one. It is however possible to accidentally move something to the wrong namespace, so I have deliberately left violations of that as "may" not "will" be blocked." [quoting my own words so there are no confidentiality, or privacy etc implications] There were following emails in the email thread I quote from but there was no comment about this, there was also no comment about it on-wiki from anybody. Yes it's unusual but entire point of the amendment was to force RAN to actually abide by the restrictions placed on him, or as Seraphimblade put it "The spirit (if not the letter) of the original ruling was that RAN was to help clean up the mess, that being, substantially work on the CCI, before returning to such activity, and that it would be wise for him to stay well clear of the line when it comes to copyright and nonfree material, not try to dance right along it."[51] Yet here were are again 2½ years later and he still hasn't got the point - regardless of whether it's bureaucracy or not I think a 1 month block is entirely justified on the merits of his actions. Thryduulf (talk) 16:47, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Kingsindian: The key point is that RAN was prohibited from creating new articles with no exceptions, unless and until his mess was cleared up, because by creating new articles he is making more mess. Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, the "must" nature of the restriction was put in place for the reasons I quoted - it was not thought possible to accidentally breach them (and I still don't think it is possible). For that reason I think that just because it has been 2½ years (not 4) since then is irrelevant. Thryduulf (talk) 18:46, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Kingsindian: Looking back at my emails from the time, it seems I was the one to draft the remedy and I explicitly flagged it up to other arbitators in a message to the arbcom mailing list at the time of proposing the motion: "I've noted the enforcement of the two slightly differently, as (draft) article creation is always a deliberate act and so there should be no discretion about whether to block or not, the minimum duration is the length of his most recent one. It is however possible to accidentally move something to the wrong namespace, so I have deliberately left violations of that as "may" not "will" be blocked." [quoting my own words so there are no confidentiality, or privacy etc implications] There were following emails in the email thread I quote from but there was no comment about this, there was also no comment about it on-wiki from anybody. Yes it's unusual but entire point of the amendment was to force RAN to actually abide by the restrictions placed on him, or as Seraphimblade put it "The spirit (if not the letter) of the original ruling was that RAN was to help clean up the mess, that being, substantially work on the CCI, before returning to such activity, and that it would be wise for him to stay well clear of the line when it comes to copyright and nonfree material, not try to dance right along it."[51] Yet here were are again 2½ years later and he still hasn't got the point - regardless of whether it's bureaucracy or not I think a 1 month block is entirely justified on the merits of his actions. Thryduulf (talk) 16:47, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Bishonen: yes the "must" is unusual, but I've explained the reasons for it and it wasn't just arbs that didn't object, nobody objected despite plenty of opportunity at the time to do so. I also think that even if it wasn't phrased as a "must" that a 1-month block is justified for what is clearly an intentional gaming of the restrictions. Nothing in the wording permits creating any sort of article by any means. Also, AE does not have the remit to impose a ban from creating redirects in this case, and I don't think one would be justified even if it were. Thryduulf (talk) 18:46, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Bishonen: arbcom has the power to say how things should be enforced (blocks, ibans, G5, etc, etc), admins have the power to choose whether a sanction needs enforcing or not. In this case the sanction clearly says it is to be enforced with blocks starting at 1 month - i.e. if it is a violation then the enforcement for that violation is a block of 1 month or longer. The 1 month was not arbitrarily chosen - it's based on the length of his preceding block. There is no authority being exceeded here. And as I've said before, a 1 month block for this egregious violation is clearly warrented regardless of whether arbcom or AE chose that. Thryduulf (talk) 16:31, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think we have the authority here to impose or modify a topic ban as nothing here is covered by discretionary sanctions. The language of the remedy is very clear and I find Thryduulf's reasoning above persuasive. I have therefore blocked Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) for one month. GoldenRing (talk) 17:04, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- I object. Please keep this section open for a bit longer, as I'd like to respond to Thryduulf. We should try to form a consensus here. Bishonen | talk 17:33, 4 February 2018 (UTC).
- By all means discuss further. I'll be a bit on-and-off this evening UTC but will try to check in every now and then. GoldenRing (talk) 17:41, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- I've posted in my own section above. Bishonen | talk 17:52, 4 February 2018 (UTC).
- This is an interesting case. It does seem like gaming (creating a redirect, then making the same redirect into an article is functionally the same as creating an article, even if the text of the new article is drawn mostly from other articles). But this was not clearly spelled out. I agree with Bishonen that an indefinite ban from creating redirects, plus a warning to RAN that doing the same thing in the future will result in blocks, is sufficient. Neutralitytalk 17:53, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- The one-month block was the minimum required by the remedy. If anything, it should have been longer, given the repeated misconduct and the user's response here. This is not discretionary sanctions, so we do not have discretion to invent any other sanction. Sandstein 19:04, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- I still agree with Sandstein on process here. What usually "gives us the freedom to choose a sanction that best prevents disruption" at AE is discretionary sanctions; no DS are authorised here. Any ban imposed here would be immediately appealable as lacking authority. Only the community (at AN/ANI) or the committee (likely at ARCA) can impose a new ban or modify the ban here. And, per Thryduulf and Mendaliv's evidence, RAN has clearly been gaming the restriction in trivial ways. The block is richly merited. Because of the brazenness of it, I sort of agree with Sandstein that it should have been longer, but the month is what the committee mandated in the remedy. And though there is a history of breaking the restriction logged at the case page, that history is from before the amendment that mandates the one month block - so I think one month is the right duration here. GoldenRing (talk) 20:47, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- On the meta question: per WP:ARBAE#Common sense in enforcement, a consensus of uninvolved administrators have the authority to close a report with no action on the ground that exceptional circumstances are present, which would make the imposition of a sanction inappropriate. That said, I do not perceive any such exceptional circumstance in this case.
The motion at issue provides that the initial block is to be for "at least one month" with no cap. I agree with Sandstein that this kind of obvious gaming should result in a longer block duration. AE doesn't have the authority to impose a redirect ban directly, but it might be imposable as an unblock condition; however, I don't see that as useful. The problem is RAN turning redirects into articles. Whether those redirects were created by him or by others is immaterial. T. Canens (talk) 21:24, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- As to content inserted by RAN in violation of the restriction, given the reason for the sanction my view is that it should be assumed to contain copyright violations (and hence subject to deletion) unless another editor in good standing is willing to take responsibility for it (including any potential sanctions if the content is, in fact, found to contain a copyright violation). T. Canens (talk) 20:15, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
- I would agree that the spirit of the sanction imposed was that RAN may not create articles. At least to my view, that would not include redirects, but would include anything more substantial than a redirect, including disambiguation pages and the like. However, I also agree on "having it both ways". If we're agreeing that redirects are not counted as articles, then changing a redirect into something more is creating an article. There's no exception based on where the material came from, the restriction wasn't "may not create articles unless the material used comes from another article". So far as length, I would agree that admins can always decide a block isn't warranted, and can't be forced to act. However, if blocked under the remedy as an AE action, the block must be at least the minimum length. Of course, an admin can block on their own accord for a shorter period of time, it just wouldn't count as an AE block in that case but rather as a normal block. In this case, though, I agree that a month is actually lenient, given the clear gaming. This was not some accidental or hypertechnical violation, it was a clear and deliberate one, and it's not the first one. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:57, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
- This is an open and shut violation, and no amount of semantic gymnastics are going to change that. Extending the prohibition on article creation to also encompass redirects might be one solution, but I don't think we have the authority to do that here. We could also use our discretion here to turn a blind eye and close this with no further action, but given RAN's rather colourful history I'm not sure that the exceptional circumstances exist to do that. Support a block of between one to two months, and will close this discussion on that basis next few hours per the emerging consensus above if nobody objects before then. Lankiveil (speak to me) 02:59, 5 February 2018 (UTC).
- @Rusf10: I take your point, but on the other hand it is the first violation for a long time. I'd probably have hit harder with the blockhammer as well, but I don't see any compelling reason to pile on the pain beyond what my fellow admin User:Goldenring has already done (I won't object if GR feels it necessary to extend the block a little though). I should note that I intend with the closure to come up with some wording to block off this particular "loophole" for the avoidance of any future doubt. Lankiveil (speak to me) 03:53, 5 February 2018 (UTC).
- @Rusf10: You can try nominating themselves for CSD G5 if you like. It might pay to put an explanation in the tag pointing towards the case and to this discussion to assist the admin who assesses them. I'm not in a space right now where I can look at them myself. Lankiveil (speak to me) 04:21, 5 February 2018 (UTC).
- Apologies, I got distracted last night and wasn't able to do it. I'll fix it up on my lunch break if nobody else has by then. Lankiveil (speak to me) 23:18, 5 February 2018 (UTC).
- @Rusf10: You can try nominating themselves for CSD G5 if you like. It might pay to put an explanation in the tag pointing towards the case and to this discussion to assist the admin who assesses them. I'm not in a space right now where I can look at them myself. Lankiveil (speak to me) 04:21, 5 February 2018 (UTC).
- 1) I agree with the block, the sanction was clear not to create articles, in any way. Saying "but they were redirects before" does not change the fact that there is an article there now where there was none before. 2) @Rusf10 and Lankiveil: I object to G5 being used to handle these articles. The redirects were not in violation of the sanction, so there is no "ban" to allow admins to delete the whole articles. Just revert them to the redirects they were before, which also serves our readers. While I am sympathetic with JFG's argument of WP:NOTBURO, keeping the articles would send the message that violations of sanctions will be tolerated if the content is good enough (of course, articles with significant edits by others are already exempt to G5 and thus also such a revert). Regards SoWhy 06:35, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Rusf10: I don't see that problem. If RAN returns and does that, I'm pretty sure he will be blocked again almost instantly because again, the spirit of the sanction is what's relevant, not the wording. Reverting a redirect back to the article he created is the same as creating the article anew. But if someone else wants to use that content and take responsibility, like Francis said above, they should be able to do so per WP:PRESERVE. Regards SoWhy 13:00, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
- This is a fairly straightforward one month block. Creating a redirect and then converting it to an article is, effectively, creating an article - it doesn't matter how it's achieved. It would probably be useful to enact a topic ban on creating redirects so we don't end up here again. Black Kite (talk) 23:30, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Black Kite: see discussion above - AE cannot impose a topic ban (of any sort) in this case, as this is not discretionary sanctions and topic bans were not authorised by arbcom. Also such a topic ban is not needed as the redirects are not problematic as redirects, RAN is already banned from creating articles and the consensus here is clearly that converting a redirect to an article is creating an article - if he does it again he'll be blocked again for longer than a month. Thryduulf (talk) 03:50, 6 February 2018 (UTC)