Talk:Kamala Harris

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RfC: Should Kamala Harris be described as 'African American' in the lead?

Should Kamala Harris be described as 'African American' in the lead? - MrX 🖋 11:56, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Yes - Sources routinely describe her as African American or black (which I'm equally fine with as an alternative). Her role as Biden's running mate makes her racial identity a first, and a highly noteworthy aspect. - MrX 🖋 12:11, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• It looks like NYT goes with black and Britannica goes with African American. I personally prefer black, since African American is most often just a euphemism for black. Nobody's gonna really pretend we'd be having this discussion about...like...an Arab dude from Morocco. But I'm not going to argue over splitting hairs there. Either one effectively communicates the information. GMG^talk 12:34, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• (Summoned by bot) No IMO, since she is of mixed "Tamil and Afro-Jamaican descent", why not simply say that more specific descriptor and not spend time deciding which geographical/ethnic labels fit best, or if we must, say "black". I give the same answer to the other RfC above.Pincrete (talk) 12:47, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

This may be technically true, it looks like the spread of sources that use this this phrasing is pretty daggum sparse. GMG^talk 12:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• Yes with tiny caveats, per WP:RS, WP:BLP and the multiply previously agreed talk page consensus.

As to whether to substitute the less American-English-specific "black", I'm not sure it matters much and WP:MoS doesn't address our apropos style usage generally.

However, strictly, in the context of vice-presidential firsts, we should use whichever of the two terms a plurality of the reliable sources on the topic of VP nominees use, or failing that, whichever is more common in written registers of English to describe an American who would self-identify colloquially as 'coloured'/'black'.

Whereas, strictly, per WP:BLP, elsewhere in this and other articles, especially when providing a description of the senator, whichever term more (or a plurality) of reliable sources have reported Harris use to describe herself.

Llew Mawr (talk) 12:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• She's from California. Photos do not look "black", lots of Californians have brown skin in summer, regardless of their ethnic background. This question is only derived from her father's background, as her mother was Tamil Indian. Her father Donald J. Harris was born in Jamaica and is described in that article as British Jamaican not "African American" (or even just African). That article also says he is descended from Hamilton Brown who is described as Northern Irish, so perhaps we should also call her Irish American. As a non-American, I had not really heard of her until she became lead candidate for vice-president, so I'd like to read more about her, and less about the ancestors of her paternal grandparents. Describe her as first/second X to do Y when sources say that, but otherwise, describe her as American or Californian. --Scott Davis ^Talkw 13:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree, and have good news for you as what you are describing is exactly and wholly the article's status quo (with no ethnic descriptions outside of "first X" and no description of her family's origins outside of a minor factual note in the relevant section). Llew Mawr (talk) 13:58, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• I believe we should not refer to her race or ethnicity in the lead at all. We can discuss her descent in the section on her early life. If we feel we must categorize her in the lead, we need to use what she calls herself, which is African-American and South Asian-American. —valereee (talk) 14:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
  • We fairly regularly refer to race/ethnicity in the lead when someone is a "first" of some note: Barack Obama, Jackie Robinson, Charles Q. Brown Jr.. GMG^talk 14:14, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

    GreenMeansGo, yes, I know. In each of those cases, we had pretty clear agreement on what the heck the person was generally to be called. Giving Harris a racial categorization is a lot more nuanced. It's like...isTiger Woods the winningest-ever Cablinasian golfer? Well, no, not according to the lead of our article about him. We deal with that later, in the section about his early life. JMO. —valereee (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

    Er...not trying to argue other stuff exists. :) —valereee (talk) 15:44, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

    • I agree that it is more complicated. While she is the first female black VP nominee, she is also the first one of Asian extraction. Also, an academic made an interesting statement in a Vox article where he described how the common portrayal of Harris as Black can be attributed to America’s history of using the “one-drop rule,” which is a racist practice that dates back to slavery. Darwin Naz (talk) 00:00, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

      • • I mean, yes. It is an OTHERSTUFF argument. But at some level, OTHERSTUFF arguments are slightly more valid when you're talking about high profile FAs. GMG^talk 15:51, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

          GreenMeansGo, I meant it as an example of how we've handled similar situations, just as I'm sure you meant Obama, Robinson, Brown as examples, not "reasons why we have to do it here! Because look at this other article!" When in fact sometimes it's the other article that needs correcting. I once pissed off someone at Mark Dice because they were arguing that since it was in Kyle Kulinski, Dice should be treated the same, and I was just showing my/WP's political bias. By the time the complainer had started making a YouTube video exposing Wikipedia's bias, I'd corrected Kyle Kulinski. They accused me of "whitewashing" Kyle Kulinski to hide WP's bias. :D —valereee (talk) 16:12, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

          • Maybe we're getting a bit off in the weeds. Obviously I agree that OTHERSTUFF is a non-argument when we're comparing just some rando article. But VA/FAs kindof set the standard, and they kindof dispense with the reasons that OTHERSTUFF is normally a non-argument. GMG^talk 16:22, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• In the lead, yes, but not in the lead SENTENCE. We already have African-American and South Asian-America in the lead in several places where she was the "first" at something. That's where it belongs. The lead sentence should just say "American". -- MelanieN (talk) 14:19, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• Agree again with Valereee and MelanieN Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:32, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• Yes, as I have mentioned multiple times on this talk page, it is her most notable identity as reflected in reliable sources. We must defer to reliable sources and not construct our own standards as to who the "African-American" label should apply to. Also emphasizing MelanieN's point that we are not talking about the lead sentence, which should just use "American," as is the norm. RedHotPear (talk) 17:34, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• Yes Because it's significant and how she is described in reliable sources. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• NO At best - she's Biracial. Her mother is from Tamil, her father's Jamaican. People from Tamil-Nadu aren't African, they're Indian. not everyone from Jamaica is black either. There are Chinese Jamaicans and white or very light completed Jamaicans (Guy Harvey for one!) so unless with have a reliable source that says it, we can't say it either.W.K.W.W.K...^{Toss a coin to the witcher, ye valley of plenty} 18:46, 12 August 2020 (UTC)blocked sock — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 20:25, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

• "unless with have a reliable source that says it, we can't say it" - Are you not aware that a huge number of reliable sources, over a long period of time, describe her as African American, and that other sources make clear that her father is Afro-Jamaican? Guy Harvey is not really relevant here. Neutrality^talk 20:10, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Neutrality Actually Guy Harvey was used as an example to show that not all Jamaicans are African Americans. Speaking of, in this article, her father is described as "British Jamaican" not "African American", so yes she can be called Bi-racial and rightfully so. By the way, you've made the same argument three times on this RFC, three people have disagreed, I realize because I'm one of the three people, I can't say it's consensus, and I won't, but if three people disagree with you, seperately, there may be something to it, just saying! W.K.W.W.K...^{Toss a coin to the witcher, ye valley of plenty} 00:53, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Here is a picture of her father, which should put to rest the absurd suggestion that her father might not be African American: https://www.nytimes.com/article/kamala-harris-dad-don-harris.html If you hit a paywall, you can go google him yourself. Furthermore, this entire discussion is gross. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 13:41, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

• Yes - A multitude of reliable sources, over well over a decade, describe her as such, and it is historically significant; she is only the second African-American woman to ever serve in the Senate, so a mention in the lead section (not the first sentence) is warranted. Neutrality^talk 20:10, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

See, for example:

• Reuters (2020): "Harris, one of the chamber’s two African-American Democrats..."
• The Times of London (2020): "The leading African-American contender for the vice-presidential slot is Kamala Harris"
• Associated Press (2019): "Harris would be the first woman to hold the presidency and the second African-American"
• Wall Street Journal (2019): "Harris said Monday she will seek the Democratic nomination for president, launching a campaign to become the nation’s first woman and second African-American to win the White House."
• LA Times (2016): "Harris — simultaneously the first woman and African American to be elected to the statewide post"
• The Guardian (2019): "Harris and Cory Booker, two African American senators"
• NBC News (2016): "Harris was elected California's first African American and Asian American Attorney General in 2010."
• San Francisco Chronicle (2010): "Harris made history Wednesday, becoming the first woman, the first African American and first Indian American in California history to be elected state attorney general."
• Los Angeles Times (2008): "Harris was elected district attorney in December 2003, becoming the first woman to win the post and the first African American in California to become a district attorney."

--Neutrality^talk 21:05, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• NO. As per Wikipedia's own entry on Jamaicans, Jamaica consists of people from various different background, not only African. Those who are saying Kamala's father is African just because he's from Jamaica and is black, frankly, are edging the line into racism similar to assuming that all asians are Chinese... In fact, the editors of the article have provided no concrete evidence to suggest Donald Harris' ancestry is of African heritage at all. In fact, Donald Harris' mother (Beryl Finnegan) was British, and his father has no information publicly available whatsoever. It is therefore important, as an encyclopedia, that Wikipedia only present information which is factually citable. And the idea that Kamala is African-American is wholly unverifiable. It is entirely possible that Donald Harris' father also came from India. There is absolutely no way of knowing without somebody digging up birth certificates or other official records, and providing them. Further, those defending the choice of naming her African-American are only saying "reliable sources". Not everybody agrees on what a reliable source is. Nobody has even mentioned which "reliable sources" are saying this to provide greater context or to achieve a better informed consensus. I have seen the sources which Wikipedia refers to as "reliable", and in many cases, these sources have long histories of posting false information, and of being prosecuted over it. The term "reliable sources" without backing it up, has to be the most ambiguous argument ever, and achieves nothing to resolve a dispute. Grez868 (talk) 20:22, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• Please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia policy before commenting. It is disruptive to make outlandish "Birther" style claims ("no way of knowing without somebody digging up birth certificates"). It is disruptive to say that we should disregard reliable sources, or to suggest that there is no such thing as a reliable source. And it is disruptive to claim that well-established reliable sources are "fake news" (I assume you are referring to the variety of sources that have explicitly referred to Harris as African American, including Reuters, the Associated Press, the Wall Street Journal). Your bizarre claim that these sources have been "prosecuted" over "posting false information" is similarly disruptive. This kind of activities can be sanctionable. Please consider this a clear warning. Neutrality^talk 20:51, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• No' Because of her complex heritage. I would accept African-American despite her Jamaican heritage but she is biracial. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:34, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

  Emir of Wikipedia, my understanding of this RfC, given the other RfC, is that they are not mutually exclusive. Endorsing this RfC doesn't rule out endorsing the other one too. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

  They don't need to be in the lede. Biracial is used by RSs [1]. -- Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:01, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

  I think there already was clear consensus before these RFCs and my !vote is still for the status quo. But, FWIW, whereas American sources like to use "African-American", I notice The Times of London also takes a different, rather concise take: "The daughter of a Jamaican father and an Indian mother, she makes history as the first non-white woman on a presidential ticket."[2] Llew Mawr (talk) 21:28, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

  This comment inaccurately presupposes that one cannot be African-American, of Jamaican heritage, and biracial. Obviously, there are many people who are all three of those things. Neutrality^talk 21:05, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• NO - She should be described as a "Women of Color" OR "Black with South Asian (or Indian) ancestry." Kamala's father is Jamaican and her mother is from India. BOTH sides of her family's ancestry should be represented in any description. In academe (and major media outlets), she would be considered a "Woman of Color" and/or described as biracial (see links at end). If she is referred to as "Black" the other side of her ancestry should be acknowledged too, as in "Black AND of Indian (or South Asian) descent. Again, BOTH sides should be recognized. Examples: "A former rival for the Democratic presidential nomination, she will be the first woman of color to be nominated for national office by a major political party." on https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/politics/kamala-harris-vp-biden.html. "So when Joe Biden named Harris on Tuesday as his running mate — making her the first Black woman on a major party's presidential ticket — Cochran wasn't just struck by the history. It represented a full-circle moment for Black women, who for generations have fought for their voices to be heard and political aspirations recognized...Harris' selection is historic in many senses. It also marks the first time a person of Asian descent is on the presidential ticket. Born to a Jamaican father and Indian mother, she often speaks of her deep bond with her late mother, whom she has called her single biggest influence" on https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/08/12/us/politics/ap-us-election-2020-harris-black-voters.html. "Still, I could have ill imagined that one day an African-American man would become the president or that a woman of Jamaican and Indian descent would be a candidate for the vice presidency" and "A woman of color will be on a major-party presidential ticket for the first time: Presumptive Democratic nominee Joe Biden announced Sen. Kamala D. Harris (D-Calif.) as his vice-presidential pick Tuesday" on https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/08/11/women-of-color-representation-government/?arc404=true . "Kamala Harris becomes first woman of color to run for vice president on a major party ticket" on CBS News this morning (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBjNxAxW79Q).Stoney1976 (talk) 03:35, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
• Yes — per Neutrality's comment above. RS describe Harris as African-American, indeed the focus on that angle, after all Wikipedia didn't invent "Harris is the first African-American vice presidential candidate" - RS did. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 05:33, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

That wording was not in the original RS for that statement. The RSs following that statement have changed over time. The RSs for that statement are now her own campaign's website (sort of like a sales website; not typically considered RS) and an article in which she is referred to as "Black" except when quoting others. News outlets appear to be updating their terminology as time goes on to "woman of color," "Black," and/or "biracial" and including a statement about where her parents are from. Check it out yourself. Stoney1976 (talk) 17:02, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

None of what you said erases the fact that she is also "African-American," and in case you hadn't noticed, the wiki article DOES explain where her parents are from in the body. Persistent Corvid (talk) 13:49, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

• No. Harris is an American. All the ethnic descriptors can go in the body. She is half-Asian, half-Black (Jamaican to be precise), and her current husband is Jewish. All these details of the American melting pot can go in the body. Vici Vidi (talk) 07:07, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
  • That's whitewashing. Drmies (talk) 16:22, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
    • How is that whitewashing (though I prefer woman of color, Black, or biracial in the lead)? It is how she describes herself, and her ancestry is still included. It's all verifiable in RS. Stoney1976 (talk) 17:17, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
    • No, it is recognizing and highlighting Harris' accomplishments as opposed to her ancestry. Vici Vidi (talk) 07:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
• Comment There is a Snopes article that says her great-great grandfather may have been an Irish slave owner, Hamilton Brown, and her great grandmother's birth may not have been recorded because her great-great grandmother was a slave. I'm noting this because if this turns out to be verifiable, those arguing that her African American ancestry should be recognized would also have to include her Irish ancestry in principle, which gets kind of ridiculous. Source: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/kamala-harris-ancestor-slaves/ I would still advocate for calling her a "woman of color" capitalized or not, and noting that her father is from Jamaica and her mother from India. Stoney1976 (talk) 16:16, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Actually, Stoney, that comment is kind of ridiculous. Drmies (talk) 16:22, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
    • Agree, this is absurd. For one thing, Snopes says the claim is unproven. More importantly, it proves nothing. Most slave-descended African Americans can count some white slave-owners in their family tree. For a white man to impregnate an enslaved woman he owned was very common. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:56, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
  • This is nonsense. She is now notable at least partially because she is the first African American, female VP candidate from a major party. She's not notable for being Irish, so why would that be in the lead? Ikjbagl (talk) 21:55, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
• Of course, because she is. She is also other things, but they are not mutually exclusive. We should not whitewash her; it's obvious that reliable sources discuss her as African-American--besides other things. Drmies (talk) 16:22, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't object to including her ancestral history in the article. I just don't think it should all go in the lead. Stoney1976 (talk) 16:43, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

• BBC has been referring to her as a "woman of color" (most frequently) or "Black" or "biracial" then noting her parents' homelands rather than calling her "African American" in their more recent news stories except when quoting others. Examples: "With three months left until election day in the US, California Senator Kamala Harris has already made history: her Jamaican and Indian roots make her the first woman of colour appointed to a presidential ticket by either of the two main American political parties." https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-53746551 "Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden has named Kamala Harris as his running mate - the first black woman and South Asian American in the role." https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53739323 "Mr Biden noted that Ms Harris, a US senator from California, was the first woman of colour to serve as a presidential running mate for a major US party." https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-53754294 All RS. Stoney1976 (talk) 16:37, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
• No. She is Jamaican and Indian descent and it has no relations with African-Americans. It would make more sense to call her "biracial" or "mixed". ShadZ01 (talk) 21:12, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

She is not technically "Jamaican" as that is a country of origin and not a racial descriptor. She was born in America. Her father is Afro-Jamaican. Therefore she is partially African-American. Also, when someone is either biracial or mixed that doesn't somehow make the specific races disappear. Persistent Corvid (talk) 14:05, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

"technically "Jamaican" as that is a country of origin and not a racial descriptor" - as opposed to African, which is not a continent but a "racial descriptor"? Str1977 ^(talk) 17:34, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

• Yes Sources generally refer to her as African-American, and we should follow the sources instead of trying to dissect her racial descent ourselves and apply silly made-up rules (Jamaican immigrants to the US can't be African-American? That's complete and utter nonsense). The current lead [3] mentions her race twice, once when noting that she was the second African-American and first Asian-American woman to serve in the Senate, and then again to note that she is the first African-American and first Asian-American woman to be chosen as a major party running mate. That reflects the way the vast majority of sources have covered her race: she is biracial, both black and Indian-American. Just to be clear, I think the short description in the first sentence should remain "American politician and lawyer", in accordance with manual of style guidelines on nationality. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 23:14, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Biracial appears to be somewhat restrictive. Her mother was Tamil, but her father was Jamaican, presumably of some kind(s) of African descent (has anyone checked for more precise race than "African"?), and also claims to have an Irish ancestor (not proven or disproven at this stage). It seems more accurate to describe her as American of mixed ethnic ancestry and heritage. --Scott Davis ^Talk 13:11, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
    • You're right, I probably shouldn't refer to her as "biracial" in the future. Anyways, that doesn't change what the sources say. Most of them refer to her as African-American or black, and many also say she's Asian-American, South Asian-American, or Indian-American. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 06:01, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
• No Identity is separate from heritage. She is Jamaican-American, doesn’t matter how much she believes otherwise Anon0098 (talk) 04:47, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

• Related:

• The Wikipedia War That Shows How Ugly This Election Will Be --The Atlantic
• Is Kamala Harris Legally African American, Indian, Both, Neither, or Something Else? --Reason Magazine
• Kamala Harris’ Biracial Heritage Has Thrown Conservatives Into A Tailspin --Forbes
• Did U.S. Sen. Kamala Harris’ Ancestor Own Slaves in Jamaica? --Snopes
• Kamala Harris’ Jamaican Heritage --Jamaica Global
• Kamala Harris is Asian and Black. That shouldn't be confusing in 2020 — but it is to some. --NBC News
• Kamala Harris’s Indian Connections Spark Social Media Frenzy --Bloomberg

--Guy Macon (talk) 16:12, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

• African-American vs. black --Grammarist
• Not all black people are African American. Here's the difference. --CBS News
• 'African-American' Becomes a Term for Debate --New York Times
• Why I'm Black, Not African American --Los Angeles Times
• 'An African American', or 'a black'? --Politico

--Guy Macon (talk) 17:34, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

• NO KH should not be called "Afro-American" until reliable sources are found which show that she has one or more African ancestors. While sources I have read say Afro-American, they give no strong evidence for it. While her father is Jamaican, I have never seen strong evidence that he has an African ancestor. I have never seen any African ancestor named or identified. I have never seen any slave in the ancestry mentioned, who was clearly born in Africa, or clearly had an African ancestor. I have seen no DNA test like for Elizabeth Warren. Is there even a reliable source which demonstrates that KH has physical characteristics exclusively typical of African ancestry? (TolerantToleration (talk) 17:09, 14 August 2020 (UTC))

  TolerantToleration, please see Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth for how to handle including things like this. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:13, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

  TolerantToleration is almost certainly a racist troll account. It was created today and its only contributions appear to be to try to reach the autoconfirmed status and troll here. This is also not encouraging. Acalamari 17:46, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Why would you think they are racist? They seem to be noting that although some (but not all) RS refer to her as African American, all we really know is that her father is from Jamaica. That much is verifiable. Her heritage beyond that is unknown. The RS calling her African American don't mention tracing her lineage. They may be making assumptions. Stoney1976 (talk) 22:53, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

• yes or black would be appropriate since she most often refers to herself that way but there are several RS that report both.

NBC News[4]Meet Kamala Harris, the Second Black Woman Elected to the U.S. Senate

NPR[5]

Roll Call[6]State attorney general could be second ever African-American woman in Senate

LA Times[7]and Harris will become only the second black woman in the nation’s history to serve in Congress’ upper chamber.

Vox[8] has an entire story on this and why it's problematic to be dissecting her identity like this

And for the pièce de résistance, her own website [9] where she says: the second African-American woman and first South Asian-American senator in history. Kamala was elected as the first African-American and first woman to serve as California's Attorney General. Praxidicae (talk) 21:16, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

• Comment.There is a debate regarding who is "African American" versus "Jamaican American," in part because of proof of ancestry, etc., but also because their colonial histories and cultural identities are different. Many Jamaican Americans do not consider themselves African American. See: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/02/21/black-history-african-american-definition/1002344001/ In their most recent story, the AP's fact checker says Kamala identifies as "Black and Indian American." They say, "Kamala Harris for years has identified herself as both Black and Indian American. In interviews, she has regularly talked about how her mother, who was from India, raised her as Black." Black is a more overarching term that includes people whose recent ancestors are from different countries. https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/breaking-the-news/african-american-or-black-which-term-should-you-use/89-0364644d-3896-4e8b-91b1-7c28c039353f The even more overarching term for a woman with both Black and Indian ancestors would be a "person of color" or a "woman of color." The Washington Post says, "A “person of color” identity is a new entry in the portfolios of nonwhites, who can identify primarily as black, Latino, Asian; Mexican, Jamaican, Chinese; or Catholic, Methodist, Muslim. Under many circumstances, they now choose to identify as POC." See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/07/02/people-color-are-protesting-heres-what-you-need-know-about-this-new-identity/ Current reporting supports "Black and Indian American" or "Black and South Asian American." If we are going by parents' countries of origin, "Jamaican and Indian American." Stoney1976 (talk) 22:26, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

You're too far down the rabbit hole. Praxidicae (talk) 22:29, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Neither one of her parents . Both non Americans in America on foreign student visas at the time of her birth were born in America. African American means you are a descendent of a slave from Africa who was forced to come to America as a Slave to serve as a Slave in the United States. Unless Jamaica becomes the 51 state she is not African American. Its highly insulting to real African Americans which i am one of to call someone from Jamacia an African American they are not and Never will be. No Jamacian i have ever talked to claimed to be an African American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.104.90.225 (talk) 06:08, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes Couple of things here. Im not sure of your fact "Both non Americans in America on foreign student visas at the time of her birth were born in America.", please provide citation. Second of all, United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898), says exactly the opposite, birthright citizenship extends to children of foreigners. Sen. Harris is American in every sense of the word. Third, the overwhelming majority of Jamaicans are of African origin. It is fair to claim that Sen. Harris is of African origin. Fourth, and most importantly, Sen. Harris refers to herself as "African American" https://www.harris.senate.gov/about "the second African-American woman and first South Asian-American senator in history." It's her identity, she has legitimate claim to it, and thats good enough for me. Fifth, I think you protest too much, and have lost your Neutral point of view "Its highly insulting to real African Americans which i am one[...]" and should withdraw from proposed edits on the page. And, for the record, I have moved this comment to the bottom of the section, where it belongs. Rklahn (talk) 08:08, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

• No - Even though she may self-identify as African-American & MSM describes her as such, that doesn't make her so. Her father is from Jamaica & her mother is from India & neither of those countries are located in Africa. PS - Thank goodness she & MSM aren't describing her as Martian-American. GoodDay (talk) 12:53, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

• Yes - per Neutrality and Praxidicae's comments. Jr8825 • Talk 04:16, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
• Yes per Neutrality, as the only thing that matters is how one is described by reliable sources. Still further, Jamaica is in America, so a Jamaican of African descent is an African American. Hipocrite (talk) 15:42, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
• Yes: Harris describes herself as such, and reliable sources frequently mention it. It's certainly notable, as well, because reliable sources regularly suggest that her race was a factor in her selection, and that she is a "historic" candidate because of her race. — Tartan357  ^(Talk) 16:53, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
• Yes, when relevant: Harris should have this attributed to her if it is directly relevant. If it is discussed that she is the first African-American V.P. nominee, for example, that would be acceptable. However, it should not be placed in a context such as "Kamala Harris is an African-American politician," if the same would not be done for a person of another race. PickleG13 (talk) 03:10, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
• Yes There are reliable sources which substantiate this. ~ HAL333 19:56, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
• No Not in the lead atleast. She has mixed ancestry. Too much brouhaha over this by her campaign and MSM. Never heard of any of this shit when she was still in the primaries. - hako9 (talk) 10:07, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

• Yes, per sources. --K.e.coffman (talk) 18:48, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
• I comment with a reserved yes vote. I hate that this is even worth considered arguing about. For the sake of political correctness, call her African-American. Trillfendi (talk) 21:02, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

  What is the politically incorrect way to call her then? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:11, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Blasian. Trillfendi (talk) 23:17, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

• No The fact is that sources vary, with no shortage of sources for Indian-American, African-American, Black, or Woman of Color.[10][11][12]. Strong preference to leave ethnicity out of the lead altogether. But if we must mention it, we could say that she is multi-racial. Adoring nanny (talk) 23:05, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
• Yes Per RS and the fact that despite what some may say, it is possible to be African-American even if your father is Afro-Jamaican... and also simultaneously be Asian-American even if your mother is from India. (This should be a piece of cake.) Persistent Corvid (talk) 14:21, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
• Yes So long as RSes do (and they do). She is an American with African descent. This isn't 1892. Dumuzid (talk) 15:00, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
• Yes, in line with core Wikipedia policies, including WP:V. The lucky editors who close this RfC will have to contend with "No" contributions such as the following: "Even though she may self-identify as African-American & MSM describes her as such, that doesn't make her so" (from GoodDay (talk · contribs)). This contribution should of course count in favor of inclusion: as this editor says, Harris identifies as African-American, and "MSM" (a.k.a. reliable sources) describe her as such. Job done. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 05:44, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank goodness she doesn't identify as a Martian-American, then. GoodDay (talk) 13:00, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Recycling a dumb pseudo-clever joke doesn't actually make it funny or insightful the second time around. --Calton | Talk 06:36, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Cry me a river. GoodDay (talk) 13:00, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

I have to say, pointing out that a comment is not funny or insightful doesn't strike me as particularly lachrymose statement. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:43, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

• Yes per my comment above. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 13:43, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• No as her heritage (for those it may concern) is too complex to sum it up neatly in one or two words. Str1977 ^(talk) 17:34, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Not for Harris herself it isn't. Why should we then care what you think? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:47, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Because it is a request for comments. Whether my comment is of interest to you personally is irrelevant, even if you use the Royal we. Str1977 ^(talk) 07:37, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

• Yes along with South Asian American The current lead already suffices with "the second African-American woman and the first South Asian American to serve in the United States Senate".
• Yes If Harris identifies as such, and sources cover it, that is all that is needed. ValarianB (talk) 13:42, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Yes because that is how reliable sources describe her. Using another standard to determine something else is WP:OR. -- Calidum 18:20, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Comment, while there is no broad agreement on whether term African-American should be used,I have not seen any objections to using black in its place? While there are many commenters who would prefer to use African-American, there are plenty of others that have objected to that usage here, for various reasons. Rather than endless debate back and forth over the true meaning of African-American, why not just go with the alternative term that there is widespread agreement as to its accuracy? (This is only in regards to the black vs. African-American issue, whether or not to also include Indian American notwithstanding). Firejuggler86 (talk) 14:01, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
• YES, but for somewhat different reasons (even though the fact that the media widely refers to her as black is a valid enough reason on its own). Biden practically stated that being an African-American female was a requirement for his VP pick. It's huge news that this is the first major party female VP candidate, AND the first major party African American VP candidate. Being the first major party VP pick to be an African American woman is now part of what makes her notable. To not acknowledge this accomplishment by noting it in the lead seems strange to me; certainly it will be included in a few years from now, regardless of how the 2020 election turns out, because she will ALWAYS be the first African American, female VP candidate from a major party. That will ALWAYS be something that makes her notable. Thus, it should be in the lead. Ikjbagl (talk) 21:55, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

• Bi-racial is more accurate, if Wikipedia feels the need to label her. Her Asian heritage is equally important. If there is a need to mention race at all in the lead, please don't favor only one part of her heritage. BLM is leading the news, but if the truth be told, Kamala has a couple of other assets the other candidates did not. She can draw the Asian-American vote. And possibly why she got chosen over Susan Rice, is that Kamala represents California's 55 electoral votes. No other state even comes close. — Maile (talk) 13:13, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Both African-American and South Asian-American have been mentioned in the article. Race is relevant because of the historic nature of her candidacy. Biden didn't need to pick her to win California, though. JTRH (talk) 13:48, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

There's a lot of everything mentioned in the article. I'm just saying for the mention in the lead, the Asian is equally important to the African. — Maile (talk) 13:59, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

They have been mentioned equally in the lead. JTRH (talk) 14:05, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

I try and avoid direct criticism of other editor's talk comments, but I find I must here. The fact that Sen. Harris got picked as the VP candidate is irrelevant. She is either notable or she is not. (clearly she is). She is either African American or not. (I believe she is). She is either South Asian American or not. (I also believe that she is). And, for the record, as stated elsewhere, I believe she can be both. Rklahn (talk) 01:25, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Rklahn, She is either Indian-American or she is not. She is either Jamaican-American or she is not. So why not use these descriptors against those non-specific descriptors? The No !voters are arguing why should we even mention these descriptors in the lead? - hako9 (talk) 17:00, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Elsewhere, and at length, I have argued that what matters here is what Sen. Harris self described identity is. That is clearly African American and South Asian American. Her Senate website says exactly that. Has said it for months. Race and how other people define her are exactly the opposite of what the goal here should be. Rklahn (talk) 19:37, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

• Yes, and probably also as "Asian-American" because she was described as such in majority of RS and because she officially self-identify as such. If she were not, I would say "no". My very best wishes (talk) 16:33, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
• Yes Didn't she face against systematic racism aimed at black people when she was young? She went to Howard, identifies as black, looks black, and has black parents. A black American is an African American in accordance with most definitions. GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 07:17, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
• Yes, per reliable sources and her self-identity. Wikipedia doesn't do original research. Reliable sources refer to her as "African-American" so we do to. It's not that complicated. Kaldari (talk) 19:13, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
• General Note: This Friday, the RFC—which fails to state the context in which "African American" is used in the lead—will have completed one month. The context is that of "first," "second," or "third" applied to "African-American" ("Asian-American" or "South-Asian American").

• Before we get to that discussion, let's rule out a few things.

• We are not debating DNA here, genotype or phenotype. Race—as geneticists who have studied it well enough to be confused by its exceptions, know—is a social construct. (If she had been abandoned as an infant by these biological parents, and raised by two foster parents with similar antecedents, where would we be in discussions about her race? Would we look for viable DNA matches in the wrecks of slave ships?)
• Neither is it about how the NYTimes describes her, for that is really about usage in their stylebook, and that discussion should be held on the talk page of WP's stylebook, for it would be more general.

• If it is about the identity of Kamala Harris, a social construct, then it is she who gets to define it as long as it is not too implausible relative to her experience. Her pronouncements there are very probably context-bound, for she likely uses "black" informally and "African American" formally. We are an encyclopedia. We typically write in the formal register, especially in the lead. Formally, her senate web site describes her as the second female African American senator and the first South Asian American senator; and the California DOJ page on its 32nd Attorney General describes her as the first African American Attorney General in California history and the first South Asian American AG. That is good enough for us.
• As for all the other categories of classification by gender or ethnicity, when first or second are used, we pick the largest ambit of notable usage. For "senator", we can't really use "Asian-American" for she would be the eight Asian American US senator, jointly with Tammy Duckworth (and that is no longer notable). Similarly, we say the "first African American female" VP nominee and the first Asian American (for South Asian American is subsumed now). If she does become the Vice President, "African American female" will become redundant in the lead paragraph as she will have become the first female vice president, the first African American, and the first Asian American.
• I request an uninvolved admin to close the RFC Saturday, September 12. It is clear that the nays don't have it. Whether the ayes have it or this RFC is inconclusive, it is well to remember that we are not describing her as African American generally here. @MelanieN, Drmies, and Valereee: They may be involved but they would know how to proceed. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:49, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

  Fowler&fowler, you can request an experienced closer at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure —valereee (talk) 22:23, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

  Anyone who has been following this closely will not be surprised by this. I wish to associate myself with Fowler&fowler comments. I would like to expand by pointing out:

• This RfC disturbed a recently found, long discussed consensus, and this discussion raised few original points. IMHO, the original consensus, which was "African American" and "South-Asian American", should carry some weight here, at least as the status quo.
• Any secondary source that says something contrary to Sen. Harris own idea of her identity got it wrong. We should not trust everything a source says (nor do we), some reasonable thought needs to go into it.
• I agree with the idea that this has gone on long enough, and should have a definitive end.

Rklahn (talk) 01:43, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

I participated in the discussion early on, but I have not followed it and have no idea how the discussion has gone or where it stands right now. I will take a look tomorrow with fresh eyes, and see if I can reach a conclusion about it, unless people object. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:55, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Closure

This discussion is ready to be closed: it has been open for a month, the RfC template was removed by the bot, and the discussion had died down, with the last !votes three days ago. I have evaluated the discussion and find a very clear consensus - clear enough that I feel I can fairly close the discussion even though I participated in it.

As several people pointed out, this discussion is about whether to include the term “African American” in the lead in connection with being the first such person to do something. It specifically excludes using that term in the lead sentence or as a general description of her. People’s responses break down as follows:

• 21 people (not counting myself) supported saying “African American”. More than half cited RS and some cited her own self description.
• Another 8 people, including the OP, said they would be comfortable with either “African American” or “Black”. More than half cited RS and some cited her own self description.
• 2 people preferred “Black”.
• 9 people favored some other descriptor such as “Jamaican American”, “biracial”, “multi-racial”, or “person of color”.
• 5 people said not to use any kind of descriptor in the lead, only in the body of the article.

This shows an overwhelming consensus in favor of African American as a descriptor when talking about being the first to do something. Several people mentioned that “South Asian American” should also be included where appropriate. -- MelanieN (talk) 15:35, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Followup: I notice that while the discussion here was unanimous in saying African American (without a hyphen), our current usage in the article lead says African-American with a hyphen (twice), Asian-American with a hyphen once, and South Asian American without the hyphen once. In the article text we say African American (without a hyphen) six times and South Asian American once. Of the nine sources cited by User:Neutrality in this discussion, four use the hyphen and five don’t. I am going to remove the three hyphens from the lead for consistency with the article text and this discussion. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:11, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Aspen Institute

I believe, from the discussion below, that consensus has been reached on an edit. Please:

• Remove both references to the "Aspen Institute" in the "Awards and honors" section.

"Harris was also selected to serve as a Rodel Fellow with the Aspen Institute along with 24 other elected officials." and the citation that goes with it. The entry on "Aspen Institute" in the "Memberships and fellowships" table.

• Remove the first "This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it."

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Rklahn (talk • contribs) 01:32, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

---

Subject's relationship with Aspen Institute is mentioned twice in the article. In both cases, its in the "Awards and honors" section. In the first case, its in the first paragraph of the section, cited to a primary source. In the second case, its listed in the "Memberships and fellowships" table in the section, also to a primary source. I also question if her relationship to the Aspen Institute is even encyclopedic. Im having a hard time finding anyone having a relationship with the Aspen Institute outside of primary sources.

I believe both should be removed.

While we are in the area "This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it." is in the section twice. It should only be once, the 2nd occurrence.

Im proposing this edit, but seeking consensus at this time. Reasonable editors may disagree with my suggestion here. It may be controversial, not in my opinion, but I could see others making the argument. I would make the edit myself without hesitation, but as a page under extended confirmed protection, I am unable. Rklahn (talk) 04:34, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

The Aspen Institute is a notable think tank and it seems indisputable that Harris was among a couple of dozen people who had fellowships there in 2006, according to the group's website. But in my opinion, it does not belong in this Wikipedia article unless her fellowship is discussed in independent secondary sources. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:18, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

The section "Memberships and fellowships" should be removed. Other than the Aspen Institute, the only other membership listed is the California State bar. But all U.S.lawyers are members of state bars. TFD (talk) 17:11, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Im included to agree with TFD here, but I would like to keep the focus on establishing consensus on the Aspen Institute bit first, then the section as a whole. So far, consensus seems to be gathering around removal, and Im soon to put a extended-protected template on this. Rklahn (talk) 23:28, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Which section? It is included in both "Awards and honors" and "Memberships and fellowships." I though we could remove the second section. If we do mention it, i think we should mention what the Institute is. TFD (talk) 23:42, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Im proposing to remove both references to the Aspen Institute. I think both should be removed because they both cite primary sources. Rklahn (talk) 00:04, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

 Done Per the consensus above. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:24, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Notice of request to reduce protection level from Extended confirmed to Semi-protection

I would just like everyone interested to know that I have requested that the protection level of the article be lowered to Semi-protection. Many active editors before the VP nomination got locked out when we went to Extended confirmed. And to focus on me for a moment, I was one of them.

The bad actors seem to have gone away, the talk page is healthy, and edit wars are a thing of the past. Simply put, its time. Rklahn (talk) 07:18, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Nice try, but the request was declined at WP:RFPP with multiple administrators agreeing it should stay at ECP. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:22, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Fair enough. But there does seem to be a little inconsistency here. Mike Pence is only Semi-protected. Im accepting the decision for now, but Im pretty likely to bring this up again after the election, and potential inauguration. Rklahn (talk) 03:13, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

IMO the entirety of Wikipedia should be Extended-confirmed. ValarianB (talk) 16:34, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

If that was the case, how would anyone ever get enough edits to BECOME extended-confirmed? -- MelanieN (talk) 16:43, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

You and your logic. EEng 17:19, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Sandboxes, draft-space, article talk pages. Prove that they're here for valid reasons with measurable contributions to discussions and non-live articles. If that's too severe, then at least default every BLP to this status. But I didn't mean to get this far afield from this the topic of Kamala Harris, apologies. ValarianB (talk) 17:23, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

I hereby propose "overextended-confirmed protection" under which you can only edit after proving that you have other things to do and really should be spending your time somewhere other than Wikipedia. Would cut down on a lot of nonsense, I think. Cheers! Dumuzid (talk) 03:44, 13 September 2020 (UTC)