Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nicholas Kao Se Tseien (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. There's a consensus that the article meets WP:GNG based on the provided sources and so merits a stand-alone article. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:42, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Nicholas Kao Se Tseien

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• Articles for deletion/Nicholas Kao Se Tseien
• Articles for deletion/Nicholas Kao Se Tseien (2nd nomination)

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Nicholas Kao Se Tseien (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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(Chinese: Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Time for another AfD here. Being the oldest of a defined religious background is not itself notable, and despite the claims of the first AfD there's almost no biographical information about him. Possibly worth mentioning his name somewhere, but there's WP:NOPAGE here. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:39, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

• Delete there is just nothing he accomplished that is notable. Note I'm changing my vote from last time due ro evolved thinking on the topic. I put up the list of Polish super old people at AFD yesterday if someone is interested in this general topic Legacypac (talk) 17:43, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 22:14, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 22:14, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

• Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
  1. 魯永明 (2004-05-06). "人瑞神父高師謙 全台留足跡". United Daily News (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 2018-12-02. Retrieved 2018-12-02.

     Here is information from the article:

     1. Kao was born in Changle City in Fuzhou, Fujian.
     2. His paternal grandfather's elder brother was a Qing dynasty scholar.
     3. He was a good student in his youth.
     4. He was baptized at age 18 into the Catholic Church.
     5. In the 22nd year of the Republic of China, he established a primary school in Fuzhou.
     6. In the 38th year of the Republic of China, he was sent to Taiwan, where he first preached at Tamsui District.
     7. He established the Our Lady of Fatima Church in Taiwan.
     8. He then moved to Kaohsiung to preach.
     9. At the beginning of his life, he was a missionary who taught in multiple places.
     10. He then retired to a seminary in Hong Kong.
     11. He has experienced several mishaps.
     12. When he was 38, he was on a boat that departed from Fujian. The boat turned over. He floated in the sea and was rescued.
     13. At age 68, while he was cleaning a Virgin Mary shrine, he fell and hit his head.
     14. At age 72, he slipped in the restroom and his head hit a gas cylinder.
     15. He had a gallbladder stone at age 80 and wrote a will. His gallbladder removal surgery was successful.
     16. He placed Virgin Mary shrines in different places including at the Chinese Dominican Sisters nunnery.
     17. His advice to people is "seven nos" and "seven hearts". The seven "nos": "no smoking, no anger, no alcohol, no overeating, constant exercise, constant prayer, no doing rude things". The "seven hearts": "confidence, humility, love, kindness, patience, filial piety, perseverance".
  2. Mitchell, Justin (2005-10-08). "Priest confesses secrets of longevity". The Standard. Archived from the original on 2012-07-16. Retrieved 2018-12-02.

     Here is information from the article:

     1. Kao was born in Fuzhou, Fujian, on January 15, 1897.
     2. Guinness World Records said he is the oldest Catholic priest.
     3. Guinness World Records said he is the oldest person to undergo cataract surgery.
     4. Kao underwent cataract surgery in May 2005.
     5. In 2005, he had lived at Our Lady of Joy Abbey for the past 32 years.
     6. His room at the monastery has a "large painted portrait of Kao on white tapestry cloth".
     7. His room is "cramped" and is full of "boxes, books, newspapers, magazines, tracts, photos, religious pictures and icons and a collection of ceramic cats".
     8. He had four brothers.
     9. He attended a school operated by Spanish Dominican friars and while there became a Catholic at 18.
     10. His father, a Buddist and a teacher, did not object. Influenced by Kao, his other family members also became Catholics.
     11. Kao was educated to be a teacher. He studied law during the night.
     12. When a Spanish friar, who was his close friend, unexpectedly died, he chose to join the priesthood.
     13. He voted for Sun Yat Sen to be China's president in 1912.
     14. He established six shrines in the Virgin Mary's honor (three in Taiwan, one in Fuzhou which Communists demolished, one in Malaysia, and one In Lantau) because he attributes her to saving himself from almost-fatal incidents.
     15. He had surgery for colon cancer when he was 107.
  3. 林良哲 (2005-11-13). "〈中部〉108歲神父高師謙 來台宣神恩". Liberty Times (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 2018-12-02. Retrieved 2018-12-02.

     Here is information from the article:

     1. At age 108, he visited Taiwan on November 12, 2005, to observe and speak at a ceremony where his brother's grandson was ordained as a priest. The ceremony was at Our Lady of Fatima Catholic Church and was presided over by Bishop Joseph Wang Yu-jung.
     2. He gave his brother's grandson a pair of rosary beads. In his speech, he said that he experienced two miracles. The first was to allow him to live to 108 years old and the second is to see a third generation join the priesthood.
     3. Kao was the oldest priest in Chinese society in 2005.
     4. He was born in Fuzhou in 1897.
     5. He was baptized in 1915.
     6. He was ordained as a priest in 1933.
     7. After the Chinese Civil War, he went to Taiwan for evangelism work.
     8. He remained with the Catholic Church in Taiwan until age 74 when he went to Our Lady of Joy Abbey in Hong Kong.
  4. 林隆士 (2005-11-13). "人瑞神父來台傳教　高齡108歲". TVBS. Archived from the original on 2018-12-02. Retrieved 2018-12-02.

     Here is information from the article:

     1. In 2005 at age 108, Kao was the oldest priest in the world.
     2. Kao flew from Hong Kong to Taiwan to participate in the ordination of his brother's grandson.
     3. His hair and beard were white and he wore black-rimmed glasses.
     4. He was born in Fujian in 1897.
     5. He graduated from Xiamen University's School of Law.
     6. He was ordained a priest at age 36.
     7. He taught in Southeast Asia for 72 years.
  5. "年屆一百零八歲高師謙神父，畢生追求和平與包容" (in Chinese). Union of Catholic Asian News. 2005-12-09. Archived from the original on 2018-12-02. Retrieved 2018-12-02.

     Here is information from the article:

     1. Kao underwent cataract surgery in his left eye in June 2005 and in his right eye 15 years prior to that.
     2. On November 12, 2005, he went on a two-hour plane flight to Taiwan to attend his brother's grandson's ordination.
     3. Kao is a member of the Cistercians religious order.
     4. He was born in Fuzhou in January 1897 during the Qing Dynasty.
     5. He was ordained in 1933.
     6. He first worked at Saint Dominic's Cathedral, Fuzhou and then served for 40 years in Taiwan and Malaysia.
     7. At 75 in 1972, he stopped his priest work and joined the Cistercians order of monks.
     8. He lived at Our Lady of Joy Abbey in Hong Kong.
     9. Since 1932, he read the rosary ten times daily. Since October 2004, he began reading the rosary 20 times daily. He hoped that by reading the rosary, people will listen to their conscience and not lightly start wars.
  6. 張嘉雯; 陳沛敏 (2007-12-12). "隱居大嶼山修道: 最長壽的香港人110歲人瑞逝世". Apple Daily (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 2018-12-02. Retrieved 2018-12-02.

     Here is information from the article:

     1. He was born in the Qing Dynasty and lived through the reigns of Guangxu Emperor and Puyi as well as ten Popes
     2. He was born in Fuzhou on January 15, 1897, the third child in the family.
     3. At the age of seven, he stole his father's glasses and accidentally broke them. Kao's father chased him but was blocked by Kao's mother.
     4. He was baptized in 1915.
     5. He became a priest in 1933 and worked at Saint Dominic's Cathedral, Fuzhou.
     6. For 40 years, he taught in China, Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore, and Thailand among other places.
     7. He died at Our Lady of Joy Abbey in Lantau Island.
     8. He at age 75 began practicing an ascetic lifestyle.
     9. In the year of Kao's death, the reporter visited him at the monastery to interview him. Kao said the main job was to raise chickens and that it was taboo to speak at the monastery.
     10. Kao with his fellow monastery members woke up at 3:30am to say their prayers, plant vegetables, and read books. They recited the scriptures seven times every day. Kao particularly enjoyed the Holy Rosary, which he recited 20 times every day.
     11. He and the monastery members went to bed at 8:30pm every night.
     12. He did not watch the television but loved reading newspapers. He particularly enjoyed reading Sing Pao Daily News.
     13. He died December 11, 2007.
  7. "Oldest Chinese priest dies one month before 111th birthday". Union of Catholic Asian News. 2007-12-12. Archived from the original on 2018-12-02. Retrieved 2018-12-02. {{cite news}}: |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; 2008-02-19 suggested (help)
  There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Nicholas Kao Se Tseien to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

  Cunard (talk) 00:45, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

• The sources were published in 2004, 2005, and 2007 and establish that Nicholas Kao Se Tseien has received persistent coverage in reliable sources. The sources discuss his career as a priest in detail and provide plenty of biographical background about him.

  Cunard (talk) 00:45, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Hong Kong-related deletion discussions. Cunard (talk) 00:47, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Taiwan-related deletion discussions. Cunard (talk) 00:47, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

• Keep Per sources found by Cunard show WP:NOPAGE does not apply here. Valoem ^{talk contrib} 04:04, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
• Keep per Cunard. Atchom (talk) 05:49, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

  He was an old guy and a priest. And... where's the page? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:02, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

• Comment he was a priest (not notable), had some surgeries and accidents (me too, some more exciting then his), traveled a bit (2 hour plane ride!) and had some family. Where is the notability? Legacypac (talk) 06:43, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

• Keep per Cunard. "Tseien" as he has multiple articles written about him, he satisfies GNG. (Plus he's accomplished more than that American sailor who also survived AfD, despite his sole distinction being the first to sight the enemy.) Clarityfiend (talk) 07:50, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:GNG and WP:NOPAGE. There is no policy that the "oldest x" is notable and there is nothing to say about this man other then fancruft like he was the oldest person to have a cataract operation and was part of the Catholic Church. What even is the claim to notability here? Newshunter12 (talk) 08:35, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

• Reaching a certain age is an lifetime accomplishment not 1 event. It is an achievement that takes over 110 years and because it is notable, reliable sources begin covering these people. This is how we determine notability here. In fact there are more billionaires than supercentenarians because to reach such age is more difficult and more notable than earning a billion in net worth. Rarely does NOPAGE applied because most sources do not just state there age, they question their lifestyle to determine how such longevity is achieved. It is only common sense to cover supercentenarians in fact we should have even more articles about them, but this history of deleting supercentenarians has been very destructive to Wikipedia. Valoem ^{talk contrib} 10:37, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

• That's an interesting Chewbacca defense, but this notion that having a 3 digit age beginning with 11 automatically confers notability is decidedly not in line with policy. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:08, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

• You must not know what the Chewbacca defense is if you think I am using it. When people reach a certain age reliable sources cover them. On Wikipedia, we are allowed to have articles on people who pass GNG. Having a 3 digit age beginning with 11 does NOT automatically confer notability, but having a 3 digit age beginning with 11 and being covered by multiple reliable secondary sources DOES confer notability. It really is that simple. Valoem ^{talk contrib} 10:34, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

• Delete – Mr. Kao was a long-lived Chinese catholic priest. A few newspapers wrote about his life, but there is nothing notable in there. Wikipedia is not mandated to collect everything ever printed in a newspaper. The long lists of facts above only serve to obscure the utter lack of notability of this person. Let's talk about my dad instead:
  1. Kao was born in Changle City in Fuzhou, Fujian. My dad was born in a lovely small village of Alsace, then under German military occupation.
  2. His paternal grandfather's elder brother was a Qing dynasty scholar. My dad's great-great-great-grandfather was a local nobleman of Swiss German descent. At least, so they say.
  3. He was a good student in his youth. My dad was an exceptional student, who obtained a state sponsorship to board a prestigious engineering school.
  4. He was baptized at age 18 into the Catholic Church. Everybody was baptized in my dad's village, mostly before their sixth month of life.
  5. In the 22nd year of the Republic of China, he established a primary school in Fuzhou. In 1960, my dad served in the French Air Force.
  6. In the 38th year of the Republic of China, he was sent to Taiwan, where he first preached at Tamsui District. In 1963, my dad was sent to Paris, where he first joined a multinational company.
  7. He established the Our Lady of Fatima Church in Taiwan. My dad created widely-used business software for IBM.
  8. He then moved to Kaohsiung to preach. My dad then moved to the South of France to head the IT department of a subsidiary.
  9. At the beginning os his life, he was a missionary who taught in multiple places. My dad was well-traveled, and drove our family all over Europe.
  10. He then retired to a seminary in Hong Kong. My dad retired as well. Good move.
  11. He has experienced several mishaps. My dad was lucky enough to remain in good health into old age.
  12. When he was 38, he was on a boat that departed from Fujian. The boat turned over. He floated in the sea and was rescued. My dad's son (me) narrowly escaped the third deadliest rail disaster in peacetime France.
  13. At age 68, while he was cleaning a Virgin Mary shrine, he fell and hit his head. My dad feels so sorry for Mr. Kao.
  14. At age 72, he slipped in the restroom and his head hit a gas cylinder. Mr. Kao clearly has a strong head; my dad can't compete.
  15. He had a gallbladder stone at age 80 and wrote a will. His gallbladder removal surgery was successful. My dad had surgery on his optical nerve; the operation did not restore full vision but that was better than losing sight entirely. I am not aware of my dad's will, but who knows, I may be a disavowed legatee…
  16. He placed Virgin Mary shrines in different places including at the Chinese Dominican Sisters nunnery. My dad collected stamps.
  17. His advice to people is "seven nos" and "seven hearts". The seven "nos": "no smoking, no anger, no alcohol, no overeating, constant exercise, constant prayer, no doing rude things". The "seven hearts": "confidence, humility, love, kindness, patience, filial piety, perseverance". My dad has no advice for life. Sad!

In loving dedication to EEng's WP:ASTONISHME. — JFG ^talk 10:44, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

• "A few newspapers wrote about his life, but there is nothing notable in there." – that "a few newspapers wrote about his life" over a sustained period of years means he passes Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". There is no requirement that the biographical information about a subject be notable.

  The quotes you have copied clearly demonstrate that reliable sources have covered Nicholas Kao Se Tseien's career as a priest in detail. The sources discuss how he, a Buddhist's son, became a priest. The sources discuss what he did as a priest: worked at Saint Dominic's Cathedral, Fuzhou, established a primary school in Fuzhou, preached in Taiwan at Tamsui District, established the Our Lady of Fatima Church in Taiwan, and established six shrines in the Virgin Mary's honor (three in Taiwan, one in Fuzhou which Communists demolished, one in Malaysia, and one In Lantau).

  Regarding your dad, if "a few newspapers wrote about his life" over a sustained period of years, he would pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline.

  Cunard (talk) 07:52, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I understand the policy, and I'm sure that if my dad reaches 110, he will get just as much coverage as Mr. Kao. We happen to disagree on whether that makes someone notable enough to deserve a Wikipedia article, my point being that such people would never be covered unless they happened to live longer than most of their fellow humans. We do have articles on notable supercentenarians, the key factor being that their life and deeds were notable independently of their age. — JFG ^talk 20:38, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree that Nicholas Kao Se Tseien never would have been covered if he did not live to 110 years old. But I am basing my "keep" position on Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires only significant coverage in reliable sources. There is no requirement in the guidelines or policies that to pass Wikipedia:Notability, supercentenarians must have lives independently notable of their age even if they have received significant coverage in reliable sources owing to their longevity.

To make "to be notable, a supercentarian must have lives and deeds that were notable independently of their age" a policy-based argument would require an RfC at a venue like Wikipedia:Village pump (policy), like what currently is being done for school inclusion criteria.

Cunard (talk) 08:03, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

*Keep Per Cunard. Julia Kinsley (talk) 20:28, 4 December 2018 (UTC) — Julia Kinsley (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Note Julia Kinsley has been blocked as a sockpuppet of User:Into the Rift CommanderLinx (talk) 05:36, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:50, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:46, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Hong Kong-related deletion discussions. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:49, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

• Keep per User:Cunard. Meets WP:GNG. Evident problem is that we have a distinct English language bias, as do the search engines listed above and many of the WP:RS sources are in Chinese. The article needs to be fleshed out, and the sources added as references. But in that sense, this is a reason to improve the article, not a reason to delete it. See WP:Before for an agenda and hierarchy of preferences and remedies. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:06, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism deletion discussions. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:27, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

A lot of the argument – particulary User: JFG's – ignores the sources, and is in essence a "just" and "mere" mocking of his tremendous achievements, including his longevity. Come back when your father reaches 110, and we will see how much coverage he got. It reminds me of an opinion I encountered in my professional career, "Is mere conviction of a felony reason to remove a sitting judge." Once you use those words, you have poisoned the well, and made the Q.E.D. conclusion inevitable. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:52, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Nothing in my statement mocks Mr. Kao or his achievements: he was a respected priest and certainly lived a honorable life. My irony was exclusively directed at the zeal of statements couching "he hit his head twice" as elements of noteworthiness. — JFG ^talk 18:05, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

• Comment The defense is greatly obfuscated here by the long list of irrelevant "achievements". A brief list of things that make him notable would be of service here. Jzsj (talk) 16:30, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Nevertheless, it is still a falacious argument. Reductio ad absurdum 7&6=thirteen (☎) 18:31, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

To slightly modify Inigo Montoya: You use that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means. In what way is it absurd to argue that routine coverage does not warrant an article? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:40, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

I added the Chinese google find sources. The prior perceived lack of sources was a result of English language bias, and an example of GIGO. This should clear up the mystery. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:06, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

• Keep per Cunard, IMO meet GNG. 74.50.209.241 (talk) 09:08, 6 December 2018 (UTC). — 74.50.209.241 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Keep as easily passes WP:GNG with sustained non-routine significant coverage in multiple very reliable sources as shown by Cunard and others. The nominator and his longevity project cohorts are on a mission to delete every longevity bio regardless of whether it is notable or not mainly based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT Atlantic306 (talk) 13:49, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

  Thank you for such an eloquent explanation of our motive. I remain unconvinced that, in this instance, there's enough material for a full biography. This is the essence of WP:NOPAGE; it's not about notability, but the fact that there's not much here to write about. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:57, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Note to closer the vote here is currently 8 keep to 3 delete. No hanging chads. Let's see if you can do the math and figure out the consensus and make the right call unlike here. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:15, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

EEng gave you solid advice to cool it with this severely flawed analogy. I'm unsure why you've chosen not to. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:19, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

• Delete/redirect to appropriate list per NOPAGE. The small amount of info about this person fits nicely in a minibio. EEng 18:25, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
• Keep Passes WP:GNG. 71.161.239.237 (talk) 20:28, 9 December 2018 (UTC) — 71.161.239.237 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  For the 100th time, the issue isn't notability but WP:NOPAGE. EEng 20:33, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Unhelpful bickering
The following discussion has been closed by JFG. Please do not modify it.
When I want your advice I'll be sure to ask for it. We all need to know where the bodies are buried. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:44, 8 December 2018 (UTC) No, seriously 7&6, what's going on with you? EEng 18:25, 8 December 2018 (UTC) It isn't about me. Articles can be improved. But there is a larger supervening agenda. Those who are editing Supercentarian articles should be aware. Those who close should be aware that saying there is "no consensus" when there clearly was undermines the WP:AFD process. Process and honest results matter. Pool table is tilted. It can't hurt to let the accountants know they are being watched. If the count is honest then the problem is entirely avoided. If not, then ... 7&6=thirteen (☎) 18:48, 8 December 2018 (UTC) I can candidly say that I am so confused beyond belief, and on so many levels, that it's hard to know where to start. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:59, 8 December 2018 (UTC) To start, EEng was apparently and openly WP:Canvassed to participate here by User:The Blade of the Northern Lights 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:03, 8 December 2018 (UTC) Look, I don't know what's going on with you, but you're really losing your grip. I participate in all these longevity AfDs; no one needs to canvas me. And AfDs aren't closed according to "counts", as surely you know already. Now cut it out. EEng 19:28, 8 December 2018 (UTC) I only know the timeline. If you had not been summoned (I assume you admit that) your participation would be cleaner. It would have helped to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. I only note that other established editors had their votes ignored elsewhere for a lot less. But I know you, and WP:AGF as to your intent. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:38, 8 December 2018 (UTC) It's clear you won't extend that assumption to me, but I remain just as confused about everything else. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:06, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

For the 100th time, WP:Nopage is part of WP:Notability, which has been resolved in the prior AFD. We know what you said; we disagree. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 22:05, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

You can't disagree with that which you clearly misunderstand. Regardless of what page NOPAGE is on, it deals with a question completely independent of notability. EEng 23:18, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes I can. All you have done is repackaged 'old wine' in 'new bottles.' 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:00, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

• Keep per Cunard. Enough independent coverage for a page. Some supercentenarians or whatever you call them are notable, even if many are not. HouseOfChange (talk) 00:51, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

  For the 101st time, notability has nothing to do with it. EEng 02:07, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

  By mentioning the word "page" in my comment, I meant to assert that WP:NOPAGE does not apply, due to large amount of info furnished by Cunard above. Now wikilinking the word "page" to make it clearer. HouseOfChange (talk) 08:51, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.