Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard

Welcome — post issues of interest to administrators.

For urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems, use Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. If you are new, try the Wikipedia:Teahouse instead. Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead use Wikipedia:Requests for oversight. For administrative backlogs add {{Admin backlog}} to the backlogged page; post here only if urgent. Do not post requests for page protection, deletion requests, or block requests here. Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. If opening a close appeal, use {{RfC closure review}} When you start a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page. Pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:AN-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Sections inactive for over seven days are archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.(archives, search) Start a new discussion

"WP:CR" redirects here. You may be looking for Wikipedia:Cleanup resources, Wikipedia:Categorizing redirects, Wikipedia:Copyrights, Wikipedia:Competence is required, Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, Wikipedia:Content removal and WP:Criteria for redaction.

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You may want to increment {{Archive basics}} to |counter= 38 as Wikipedia:Closure requests/Archive 37 is larger than the recommended 150Kb.

Use the closure requests noticeboard to ask an uninvolved editor to assess, summarize, and formally close a Wikipedia discussion. Do so when consensus appears unclear, it is a contentious issue, or where there are wiki-wide implications (e.g. any change to our policies or guidelines).

Do not list discussions where consensus is clear. If you feel the need to close them, do it yourself.

Move on – do not wait for someone to state the obvious. In some cases, it is appropriate to close a discussion with a clear outcome early to save our time.

Do not post here to rush the closure. Also, only do so when the discussion has stabilised.

On the other hand, if the discussion has much activity and the outcome isn't very obvious, you should let it play out by itself. We want issues to be discussed well. Do not continue the discussion here.

There is no fixed length for a formal request for comment (RfC). Typically 7 days is a minimum, and after 30 days the discussion is ripe for closure. The best way to tell is when there is little or no activity in the discussion, or further activity is unlikely to change its result.

When the discussion is ready to be closed and the outcome is not obvious, you can submit a brief and neutrally worded request for closure.

Include a link to the discussion itself and the {{Initiated}} template at the beginning of the request. A helper script can make listing easier. Move discussions go in the 'other types' section.

Any uninvolved editor may close most discussions, so long as they are prepared to discuss and justify their closing rationale.

Closing discussions carries responsibility, doubly so if the area is contentious. You should be familiar with all policies and guidelines that could apply to the given discussion (consult your draft closure at the discussions for discussion page if unsure). Be prepared to fully answer questions about the closure or the underlying policies, and to provide advice about where to discuss any remaining concerns that editors may have.

Non-admins can close most discussions. Admins may not overturn your non-admin closures just because you are not an admin, and this is not normally in itself a problem at reviews. Still, there are caveats. You may not close discussions as an unregistered user, or where implementing the closure would need tools or edit permissions you do not have access to. Articles for deletion and move discussion processes have more rules for non-admins to follow.

Technical instructions for closers

Please append {{Doing}} to the discussion's entry you are closing so that no one duplicates your effort. When finished, replace it with {{Close}} or {{Done}} and an optional note, and consider sending a {{Ping}} to the editor who placed the request. Where a formal closure is not needed, reply with {{Not done}}. After addressing a request, please mark the {{Initiated}} template with |done=yes. ClueBot III will automatically archive requests marked with {{Already done}}, {{Close}}, {{Done}} {{Not done}}, and {{Resolved}}.

If you want to formally challenge and appeal the closure, do not start the discussion here. Instead follow advice at WP:CLOSECHALLENGE.

Other areas tracking old discussions

• Wikipedia:Requested moves#Elapsed listings
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Old
• Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion
• Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Awaiting closure
• Wikipedia:Templates for discussion#Old discussions
• Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion#Old business
• Wikipedia:Proposed mergers/Log
• Wikipedia:Proposed article splits

Administrative discussions

ANI thread concerning Yasuke

(Initiated 66 days ago on 2 July 2024) Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1162 § Talk: Yasuke has on-going issues has continued to grow, including significant portions of content discussion (especially since Talk:Yasuke was ec-protected) and accusations of BLP violations, among other problems. Could probably be handled one sub-discussion at a time. --JBL (talk) 17:50, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Meta Voyager's tendentious editing

(Initiated 15 days ago on 22 August 2024) It doesn't appear as though consensus is going to emerge for anything in this discussion that's been going for 2 weeks. Can an admin please close this. TarnishedPath^talk 11:04, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Possible involvement of Admin in ARBPIA area

(Initiated 9 days ago on 28 August 2024) Opinions vary; a summary of consensus (if any) as to whether there is involvement, and if so the scope, would be helpful. Thanks in advance. Levivich (talk) 03:27, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Requests for comment

RFA2024, Phase II discussions

Hi! Closers are requested for the following three discussion:

• (Initiated 127 days ago on 2 May 2024) Administrator recall
• (Initiated 124 days ago on 5 May 2024) Designated RfA monitors
• (Initiated 124 days ago on 5 May 2024) Reminder of civility norms at RfA

Many thanks in advance! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 04:27, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... reminder of civility norms. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:24, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done reminder of civility norms. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

If re-requesting closure at WP:AN isn't necessary, then how about different various closers for cerain section(s)? I don't mind one or two closers for one part or another or more. --George Ho (talk) 17:39, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

During Phase I of RFA2024, we had ended up having multiple closers for different RFCs, even the non-obvious ones. I think different people closing subparts of this should be acceptable Soni (talk) 09:22, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Bumping this as an important discussion very much in need of and very much overdue for a formal closure. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:40, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... designated RfA monitors (at least in part). voorts (talk/contributions) 16:40, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done designated RfA monitors. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

For recall, @Sirdog: had attempted a close of one section, and then self-reverted. Just in case a future closer finds this helpful. Soni (talk) 07:17, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the ping. For what it's worth, I think that close was an accurate assessment of that single section's consensus, so hopefully I make someone's day easier down the line. Happy to answer questions from any editor about it. —Sirdog (talk) 07:38, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I also think closing some sections at a time is pretty acceptable, especially given we have only been waiting 2+ months for them. I also have strong opinions on 'involved experienced editors' narrowing down a closer's scope just because they speak strongly enough on how they think it should be closed. But I am Capital-I involved too, so shall wait until someone takes these up. Soni (talk) 08:53, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I tend to agree. Not many people agreed with the concerns expressed on article talk about closing section by section. If a closer can't find consensus because the discussion is FUBAR, they can make that determination. voorts (talk/contributions) 12:50, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Poking this again - we definitely need someone uninvolved to take a look at this and figure out the most appropriate path forward. Tazerdadog (talk) 20:28, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 444#RFC: The Telegraph on trans issues

(Initiated 95 days ago on 3 June 2024) Initial close has been overturned at review. A new close is required. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:36, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Titles of European monarchs

(Initiated 76 days ago on 22 June 2024) - I thank the Wikipedia community for being so willing to discuss this topic very extensively. Because 30 days have passed and requested moves in this topic area are already being opened (For reference, a diff of most recent edit to the conversation in question), I would encourage an uninvolved editor to determine if this discussion is ready for closure. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

(Also, apologies if I have done something incorrectly. This is my first time filing such a request.) AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

There is ongoing discussion there as to whether a closer for that discussion is necessary or desirable. I would suggest to wait and see how that plays out.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:58, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

This is dragging on ad nauseam. I suggest an admin closes this, possibly with the conclusion that there is no consensus to change. PatGallacher (talk) 17:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. Also a discussion at Wikipedia:Discussions for discussion#Some holistic solution is needed to closing numerous move requests for names of royals, but that dates back to April. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:La France Insoumise#RfC: How should the political position of La France Insoumise be described?

(Initiated 61 days ago on 7 July 2024) Discussion has already died down and the 30 days have elapsed. Uninvolved closure is requested. Thanks a lot! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 21:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Chaotic Enby I was reviewing this for a close, but I wonder if reopening the RFC and reducing the number of options would help find a consensus. It seems like a consensus could be found between options A or D. Nemov (talk) 12:35, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

That could definitely work! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 12:41, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2024 United Kingdom general election#RfC: Inclusion of parties in the Infobox

(Initiated 60 days ago on 8 July 2024). Ready for closing, last !vote was 12 July by looks of it. CNC (talk) 16:27, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Gaza_Health_Ministry_qualifier

(Initiated 53 days ago on 15 July 2024) -sche (talk) 15:19, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

There have been only 5 !votes since end July (out of 50+) so this could be closed now. Selfstudier (talk) 10:23, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

+1 please close it thanks. NadVolum (talk) 13:49, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Benevolent_dictatorship#Should_this_page_contain_examples?_#2

(Initiated 51 days ago on 17 July 2024) Any brave soul willing to close this? The participants fall about 50-50 on both sides (across both RfCs too), and views are entrenched. Banedon (talk) 05:17, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Socialist Alliance (Australia)#RFC - Is Marxism at times considered an ideology and if so, does it fall within Socialist Alliance's ideology?

(Initiated 48 days ago on 20 July 2024) RFC tax has expired and last comment was 5 days ago. TarnishedPath^talk 04:51, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:War crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine#RfC on the inclusion of alleged Ukrainian misuse of civilian infrastructure for military operations

(Initiated 44 days ago on 24 July 2024) Discussion slowed. Last comment 13 August 2024. Moderately complex RfC with multiple options. Thank you in advance to the closer. JDiala (talk) 05:46, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List_of_U.S._executive_branch_czars#RFC Proposal: Kamala Harris as "border czar" in the Biden administration

(Initiated 41 days ago on 27 July 2024) – This discussion is a month old and consensus is very clear. Could an uninvolved editor please summarize and close it so that the foot-draggers will finally let the article be updated? 2601:600:817F:16F0:815A:D0F2:7C13:ACE7 (talk) 14:52, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Lucy Letby#RFC on first sentence

(Initiated 32 days ago on 5 August 2024) - Discussion is a month old and appears to have run its course. A consensus may have emerged but not a snow close so needs a kind uninvoled editor please. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:21, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Imane Khelif#RfC lead

(Initiated 31 days ago on 5 August 2024) Discussion has slowed. Last comment 23/08/2027. TarnishedPath^talk 04:44, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Rfc for Martin Van Buren's Lede Image

(Initiated 27 days ago on 10 August 2024) Another infobox image RFC winding down. Nemov (talk) 13:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Imane Khelif#RfC on weight of "misinformation" in lead

(Initiated 25 days ago on 12 August 2024) Discussion has slowed. Last comment 24/08/2024. TarnishedPath^talk 04:45, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Philippe Pétain#Rfc for Lede Image of Philippe Pétain

(Initiated 20 days ago on 17 August 2024) Requesting immediate procedural close for Talk:Philippe Pétain#Rfc for Lede Image of Philippe Pétain, because it is blocked on a Wikipedia policy with legal implications that no one at the Rfc is qualified to comment on, namely U.S. copyright law about an image. At a minimum, it will require action at Commons about whether to delete an image, and likely they will have to consult Wikimedia legal for an interpretation in order to resolve the issue. Under current circumstances, it is a waste of editor time to leave the Rfc open, and is impossible to reliably evaluate by a closer, and therefore should be procedurally closed without assessment, the sooner the better. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 20:42, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

• It's not appropriate to make an immediate procedural close in those circumstances. Wikipedians routinely make decisions about copyright, even those Wikipedians who aren't US attorneys. This is not a high-drama situation. However I'm starting to wonder if the RFC nominator might be on a crusade about our lede images for prominent WW2 figures, and if so, whether they might benefit from a sysop's advice and guidance about overusing our RFC process.—S Marshall T/C 09:16, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Deletion discussions

XFD backlog

V	Jun	Jul	Aug	Sep	Total
CfD	0	0	10	0	10
TfD	0	1	12	0	13
MfD	0	0	3	0	3
FfD	0	0	3	0	3
RfD	0	0	67	0	67
AfD	0	0	0	0	0

Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 15#Raymoo

(Initiated 70 days ago on 28 June 2024) Steel1943 (talk) 21:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 15#North West Leicestershire by-election, 2010

(Initiated 56 days ago on 11 July 2024) Steel1943 (talk) 21:26, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 15#Imperial Royalty

(Initiated 55 days ago on 13 July 2024) Steel1943 (talk) 21:28, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 15#Template:Empty-warn

(Initiated 48 days ago on 20 July 2024) Steel1943 (talk) 21:31, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 15#Toad Town

(Initiated 45 days ago on 23 July 2024) Steel1943 (talk) 22:13, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 August 17#Category:Discotek Media

(Initiated 36 days ago on 1 August 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 17:40, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 August 19#Category:Wikipedia utility templates

(Initiated 27 days ago on 10 August 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:41, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 15

(Initiated 22 days ago on 15 August 2024) Several discussion need closing on the currently oldest active RfD daily subpage. Experienced discussion closers are invited to help with the backlog of discussions. Steel1943 (talk) 21:19, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 August 19#Category:NASCAR by year

(Initiated 18 days ago on 19 August 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:41, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 August 20#Template:Latvia-edu-stub

(Initiated 17 days ago on 20 August 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:41, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 August 20#Category:Non-fiction books about the African-American civil rights movement

(Initiated 17 days ago on 20 August 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:41, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Other types of closing requests

Talk:Antisemitism in the United States#Merge proposal

(Initiated 321 days ago on 21 October 2023) a merge discussion related to Antisemitism in the United States and Antisemitism in the United States in the 21st century now without comments for 4 weeks; requestion a close by any uninvolved editor. Klbrain (talk) 07:40, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:PAG#Merge_proposal

(Initiated 167 days ago on 23 March 2024) This discussion died down, unclear what the consensus is. (uninvolved editor) The Banner talk 10:47, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Talk: Hurricane Isaias#Proposing merger of tornado outbreak

(Initiated 123 days ago on 5 May 2024) Discussion went on for 3 months and seems to have stalled. 35.0.62.211 (talk) 16:38, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive 194#Notifying_Wikiprojects_and_WP:CANVASS

(Initiated 101 days ago on 28 May 2024) Latest comment: 3 days ago, 79 comments, 37 people in discussion. Closing statement may be helpful for future discussions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

 Doing...— Frostly (talk) 22:35, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

@Frostly Are you still planning on doing this? Soni (talk) 16:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Soni, yes - have drafted close and will post by the end of today. Thanks! — Frostly (talk) 17:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I wanted to note that this is taking slightly longer than expected, but it is at the top of my priority and will be completed soon. — Frostly (talk) 05:14, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

@Frostly Just checking, would you like someone else to help with this? Soni (talk) 07:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

@Frostly: also checking in. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:33, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi Voorts and Soni, thanks for the pings! I've unfortunately been in the hospital for the past week but am now feeling better. I apologize for the long delay in putting out the close and appreciate your messages! Best, — Frostly (talk) 03:59, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear that; a week-long hospitalization is not fun. But, I'm glad that you're feeling better. Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 19:06, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Ping @Frostly again (I saw you've been editing Commons). Hope your still better, and if you don't feel like doing this one anymore, just let people know. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:02, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 13:32, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:You Like It Darker#Proposed merge of Finn (short story) into You Like It Darker

(Initiated 99 days ago on 30 May 2024) Contentious merge discussion requiring uninvolved closer. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:35, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2024 Nuseirat_rescue operation#Proposed_merge_of_Nuseirat_refugee_camp_massacre_into_2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation

(Initiated 90 days ago on 8 June 2024) Since much of the discussion centers on the title of the article rather than its content, the closer should also take into account the requested move immediately below on the talk page. Smyth (talk) 15:17, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

If the closer finds "no consensus", I have proposed this route in which a discussion on merger and RM can happen simultaneously to give clearer consensus.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 20:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources#Page size

(Initiated 68 days ago on 30 June 2024) Proposal to split RS/PS. Discussion has died down. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:39, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of common misconceptions#Split proposal

(Initiated 60 days ago on 8 July 2024) – Editors would feel more comfortable if an uninvolved closer provided a clear statement about whether a consensus to WP:SPLIT exists, and (if so) whether to split this list into two or three lists. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Incidents at Six Flags parks#Merge Proposal

(Initiated 50 days ago on 18 July 2024) – I'm requesting that the discusion reguarding the merger being being discussed be closed so that the pages may be merged as the proposed merger is unlikely to controversial.DisneyAviationRollerCoasterEnthusiast (talk) 05:26, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Multi-RM Bolognese School

(Initiated 42 days ago on 26 July 2024) – Talk:Bolognese School#Requested move 26 July 2024 is 6 weeks old, and discussion has died down. Dicklyon (talk) 20:08, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

 Closed by editor Amakuru. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 20:50, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Al-Tabaeen_school_attack#Requested_move_10_August_2024

(Initiated 27 days ago on 10 August 2024) - I believe consensus is relatively clear, but given the contentious overarching topic I also believe an uninvolved closer would be appreciated. Thanks in advance! Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:05, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Climbing#Suggesting_a_change_of_WP:WikiProject_Climbing/Article_recommendations

(Initiated 11 days ago on 26 August 2024) I'd like a closure of this discussion, which was preceded by this discussion:Talk:Cobra_Crack#MOS:ITAL Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Pages recently put under extended-confirmed protection

Report

Pages recently put under extended confirmed protection (52 out of 8364 total) () WATCH Page Protected Expiry Type Summary Admin 2000 Hezbollah cross-border raid 2024-09-06 20:34 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case Prithu 2024-09-06 18:47 indefinite edit,move Contentious topics enforcement for WP:CT/IPA; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan All India Sevens Football 2024-09-06 18:17 2024-10-06 18:17 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan 3D Organon 2024-09-06 18:14 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan Template:Railway stations in countryname opened in YYYY category header 2024-09-06 18:00 indefinite edit,move High-risk template or module: 2515 transclusions (more info) MusikBot II Punjabi language 2024-09-06 17:07 2026-09-06 17:07 edit Persistent disruptive editing: Regular semi-protection ineffective, persistent block evasion and additions of poorly sourced material. Yamaguchi先生 User talk:Omensanne 2024-09-06 11:08 2024-09-08 11:08 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry 331dot User talk:Uzbekxmas 2024-09-06 11:03 2024-09-08 11:03 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry 331dot User talk:Gnashchamp 2024-09-06 11:00 2024-09-08 11:00 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry 331dot Eric Dick (lawyer) 2024-09-06 05:13 2025-09-06 05:13 edit,move Contentious topic restriction: WP:BLPCT ToBeFree Real Life (webcomic) 2024-09-06 02:16 indefinite edit,move Violations of the biographies of living persons policy: per RFPP; will also log as CTOPS action Daniel Case User talk:Vestahutu 2024-09-05 21:01 2024-09-07 21:01 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry 331dot Raven Saunders 2024-09-05 17:59 indefinite edit,move Violations of the biographies of living persons policy: per request Daniel Case User talk:Cabothash 2024-09-05 13:58 2024-09-07 13:58 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry 331dot List of Terminator (franchise) characters 2024-09-05 13:53 2024-12-05 13:53 edit Persistent sock puppetry NinjaRobotPirate Unbelievable Gwenpool 2024-09-05 13:32 2024-12-05 13:32 edit Persistent sock puppetry NinjaRobotPirate User talk:Nannyewer 2024-09-05 13:20 2024-09-07 13:20 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry 331dot User talk:Monetrube 2024-09-05 13:15 2024-09-07 13:15 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry 331dot User talk:Havensedan 2024-09-05 13:07 2024-09-07 13:07 edit,move Persistent disruptive editing from (auto)confirmed accounts 331dot User talk:Cosbynose 2024-09-05 11:20 2024-09-07 11:20 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry 331dot User talk:Hungnecks 2024-09-05 11:19 2024-09-07 11:19 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry 331dot User talk:Townknob 2024-09-05 11:19 2024-09-07 11:19 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry 331dot Tulkarm Brigade 2024-09-05 02:43 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case Timeline of the Israel–Hezbollah conflict (1 April – 26 July 2024) 2024-09-05 02:18 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case Timeline of the Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2 January – 31 March 2024) 2024-09-05 02:14 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case Timeline of the Israel–Hezbollah conflict (24 November 2023 – 1 January 2024) 2024-09-05 02:11 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case Timeline of the Israel–Hezbollah conflict (8 October – 23 November 2023) 2024-09-05 02:07 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case Timeline of the Israel–Hezbollah conflict (27 July 2024 – present) 2024-09-05 01:59 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP; will also log as CTOPS action Daniel Case Partition of India 2024-09-04 21:00 indefinite edit,move Persistent vandalism: this discussion Academic Challenger Darryl Cooper 2024-09-04 19:56 2025-09-04 19:56 edit,move Contentious topic restriction: WP:BLPCT ToBeFree Tiwana 2024-09-04 19:54 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated BusterD Karabakh movement 2024-09-04 19:06 indefinite edit,move WP:GS/AA ToBeFree White genocide (Armenians) 2024-09-04 19:05 indefinite edit,move WP:GS/AA ToBeFree Western Azerbaijan (irredentist concept) 2024-09-04 19:03 indefinite edit,move WP:GS/AA ToBeFree Anti-Armenian sentiment in Azerbaijan 2024-09-04 19:02 indefinite edit,move WP:GS/AA ToBeFree Rana Sanga 2024-09-04 15:57 2026-09-04 15:57 edit Persistent disruptive editing: Regular semi-protection ineffective, persistent block evasion and additions of poorly sourced material. Yamaguchi先生 AH Milad 2024-09-04 14:56 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated Jauerback Red Sea crisis 2024-09-04 01:53 indefinite edit,move Restoring protection (move protection was missing) by Ymblanter: Contentious topic restriction: WP:ARBPIA Daniel Quinlan Sexual and gender-based violence in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel 2024-09-04 01:51 indefinite edit,move Restoring protection (move protection was missing) by Isabelle Belato: Arbitration enforcement; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan Assassination of Ismail Haniyeh 2024-09-04 00:24 indefinite edit,move Restoring protection by Red-tailed hawk: Arbitration enforcement: WP:PIA Protection Helper Bot Environmental impact of the Israel–Hamas war 2024-09-04 00:14 indefinite edit,move Restoring protection by Malinaccier: Per WP:A/I/PIA Protection Helper Bot Russian annexation of Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts 2024-09-04 00:04 indefinite edit,move Restoring protection by Prolog: Wikipedia:General sanctions/Russo-Ukrainian War Protection Helper Bot September 2024 Israel ceasefire protests 2024-09-03 21:59 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case September 2024 Poltava strike 2024-09-03 20:20 indefinite edit,move Community sanctions enforcement: WP:RUSUKR Ymblanter Template:Election box turnout no change 2024-09-03 18:00 indefinite edit,move High-risk template or module: 2516 transclusions (more info) MusikBot II Rauso 2024-09-03 16:46 2025-03-03 16:46 edit Persistent disruptive editing: Regular semi-protection ineffective, persistent block evasion and additions of poorly sourced material. Yamaguchi先生 Bhar 2024-09-03 03:40 indefinite edit Community sanctions enforcement: per RFPP and WP:GS/CASTE Daniel Case List of massacres in Jerusalem 2024-09-03 03:24 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case 2024 Tarqumiyah shooting 2024-09-03 03:18 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case Abu Shujaa 2024-09-03 03:13 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case List of Alien vs. Predator characters 2024-09-03 03:04 2025-09-03 03:04 edit Persistent sock puppetry NinjaRobotPirate List of Rick and Morty characters 2024-09-03 02:44 2024-12-03 02:44 edit Persistent sock puppetry NinjaRobotPirate

Draft:Pro:Atria

I have a dispute with @Stas`: about three articles where he added the Draft:Pro:Atria as a link. I have removed those links, citing the argument "removed program without article, deemed not notable" from List of FTP server software (here), Comparison of FTP client software (here and here) and Comparison of SSH servers (here and here)

Since than Stas' is banging at the door to ask for clarity and consistency. I have replied that it would be easier to just write an article. (The draft used was by that that already two times declined) By now, he has reached my annoyance level but I am aware of the fact that I can have acted overly harsh.

So I request more people to weigh in. The Banner talk 16:00, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you! Stas` (talk) 16:04, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

We do not link from Articles to Drafts. Full stop, end of story. Stas`, please wait until the draft is approved before adding links to the related articles. Primefac (talk) 16:40, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Primefac, I understand that and I appologised for the initial edits using a draft. The following edits I sent, contained red links. So my question, in fact, was if it is OK to update the relevant pages (where red links are allowed obviously)? As far as I understand, this is allowed in the WP:CSC, and I believe ultimately, that's where the dispute started. Thanks in advance. Stas` (talk) 18:30, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Generally speaking, yes, if you are going to redlink an article you need to provide a reference and/or indication that the page could be created in the future. However, I have noticed the general consensus on software/technology lists is that only those with articles are included, simply because these programs are a dime-a-dozen and there's rarely an indication that a program is notable until someone writes an article about it. Primefac (talk) 18:34, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

The changes I've sent were updates to the alternative that exists already in the list. The same goes with the article draft, the intent was to provide up-to-date information and transparency behind a company providing software (in that list) for governmental agencies among others. Stas` (talk) 00:00, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Can someone just revew the Draft and move it into mainspace if acceptable? It was not resubmitted but a note was posted asking for review. That would solve the back and forth. Legacypac (talk) 18:39, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

The back and forth was about the inclusion in the list, not necessarily the draft being declined. Thank you for submitting it; we shall see how it fares. Primefac (talk) 18:47, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you! I'm still updating the references when I find those relevant to the article. But any feedback is welcome. Stas` (talk) 00:00, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

The draft was reviewed by myself and still fails the basic inclusion in addition to being fundamentally promotional. The draft is a combination of a Client and Server side, so we have 2 aspects to consider: What makes this software client special? and What makes this software server special? both of which are fundamentally unanswered and unsuitable. Draft has been put up for MFD. Hasteur (talk) 19:13, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Draft:Pro:Atria shpuld resolve the issue so this thread can be closed. Legacypac (talk) 21:16, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Crypto miners

A number of sites are now infested with crypto-mining sideloads, either through compromised web framework plugins, or adverts, or through deliberate action. Bigger sites like YouTube seem to be dealing with this (see [1]), but smaller sites often are not. Normally we blacklist sites with malware, and this is certainly an option for blogs and other sites of no evident authority, but I wonder if we should have some sort of systematic approach to this, and if so what it could be? For example, if a site is identified as having crypto sideloads, we could log it, wait a week to see if it's fixed, and blacklist it if not. I don't know. What do others think? Guy (Help!) 10:53, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Could be worth exploring the use of archives for sites known to be affected (provided the malware itself isn't displayed by the archive service). —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 11:00, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

This seems like a WT:EL question, not a WP:AN question. --Izno (talk) 14:05, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

To be fair, it potentially affects links in references, and not merely external links at the bottom of the article. I swear I saw a research article mirror awhile back doing this, for example. And, really, this isn't ANI; it's appropriate to discuss general administrative concerns here, and this affects how admins respond to people linking to odd websites: Are they merely legitimate users of that particular reference material, or are they someone with a monetary interest in spamming links to those sites? It tees up the question that spamming is not merely an issue of preventing spam, but also a violation of the TOU regarding paid editing (since the people linking out to these sites are surely not doing so out of the kindness of their own hearts). —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 19:14, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Mass G8 deletion of pages created by an IP

I've just deleted around 175 or pages created by 88.105.70.221 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) over the span of an hour or two. They were without fault talk or category talk pages of nonexistent articles and categories, and were mostly of the flora/fauna/biota/flags/symbols of Kashmir/Sindh/Punjab/etc. Some of the titles seems to suggest an agenda? I've saved a list here. The extant posts of the IP are quite related; despite yesterday being the first edits, I've blocked the IP to prevent further such actions. Anyway, given our history of mass-created/deleted pages (I recall an incident with bot-created algae stubs...), I would welcome a secondary review of this action by anybody smarter than I am on the politics of the region and categories in general. Thank you. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 12:45, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

• I wonder if this is PAKHIGHWAY (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) or some other restricted POV-pusher? Guy (Help!) 12:57, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
  • If it is, and I'm not sure we are going to be able to tell, that'd definitely be time for an indefinite block on PAKHIGHWAY. It's hard to see this action as anything other than disruptive. --Yamla (talk) 13:53, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

It would require a checkuser, obviously. Guy (Help!) 14:31, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

CU doesn't connect IPs to accounts, so that'd be useless. ansh666 20:31, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

@Ansh666:--That's partially wrong.Whilst CUs don't publicly connect IPs with UACs, they can easily do a plain CU block on the abusive account.~ Winged Blades^Godric 11:04, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Exactly. What I meant was that only a CU could do this. Guy (Help!) 16:43, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Administrative error correction

Please can the page Stuttgart Open – Singles be deleted after being moved to 2004 Stuttgart Open – Singles. This is due to a move error on my behalf. Sport and politics (talk) 14:50, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

 Done Katie^talk 15:40, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Are IPs allowed to vote in AfDs?

Especially if they have less than 500 contribs, and the AfD has had issues with potential vote canvassing and vote stacking [2]? Thanks, Khirurg (talk) 18:37, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

AFD's are not "votes" - IP editor comments are welcome. — xaosflux ^Talk 18:48, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. Khirurg (talk) 19:01, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes, and admins are allowed to include their opinions or not depending on context. Guy (Help!) 19:56, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Hey, how come there are no IP admins? Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:08, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

• No they're not, IPs have to sign up in order for their opinion to mean anything. If only........ –Davey2010^Talk 01:03, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
• IPs with useful things to say are more than welcome at AFDs. Experienced admins know to base closure of discussions on the content of contributions and not on who makes them; if an IP user has evidence to present one way or the other, that evidence is what makes their comments meaningful, not who they are. --Jayron32 04:05, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
• The if they have less than 500 contribs part, however, is relevant to topic areas with sanctions. The I/P area, for instance, prohibits editors with less than 500 edits and six months (I think) of experience.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:37, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

  Less than 500 edits is meaningless for IP editors. They could have over 500, but only one on their current IP; it could be their first edit ever, but the IP's thousandth. ansh666 03:13, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

  I’m familiar with several regular IP users with thousands of edits as a person who run into this problem of perception whenever their IP changes. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:41, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

  They're allowed to get accounts if the 500 edit restrictions are onerous to them. They of course don't have to get accounts if they don't want, but then they can't do everything at Wikipedia they want to do. That's just how it works. --Jayron32 04:03, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Until and unless some admin decides that the AfD needs to be protected, any non-blocked IP or account is permitted to express their opinion, and ask their questions; the closing admin will decide, for each comment, how much weight it should be given. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:32, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Moving "Baltic Finns" to "Finnic peoples"

Hi, I'm asking for assistance in renaming the article Baltic Finns to Finnic peoples, as "Finnic peoples" is the most widely used term in both research literature and other encyclopaedias. I could not move it myself, as the page already has a redirect from "Finnic peoples". There is also an associated talk page discussion about this. Thank you. SørenKierkegaard (talk) 08:25, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

After looking at the talkpage discussion, I think I'd better leave the assessment of your request to a linguist, SørenKierkegaard. For the next time, please note that there is a special noticeboard dedicated to such requests: Wikipedia:Requested moves. (But it was lovely to meet you — I'm a great admirer of your 19th-century work.) Bishonen | talk 09:42, 5 February 2018 (UTC).

@Bishonen: Haha thanks :) I guess I'll keep waiting for another administrator then... how do you ping a linguist admin? SørenKierkegaard (talk) 15:14, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

You could probably do a PetScan to find admins who are in the appropriate language category. But, as stated, RM is really the best way to go on this one. Primefac (talk) 15:20, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

There is no consensus for the move - see my summary at Talk:Baltic Finns#Renaming the article to "Finnic people". — Sebastian 16:35, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

RfC closure needed

It's listed at the top of this page as well, but it's somewhat time-sensitive and potentially has an impact on nearly every article (it's included in WP:CENT), so... Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#RfC: Populating article descriptions magic word has been open for nearly two months, discussion seems to be finished, but closure is not straightforward (I think). It would be nice if one or more uninvolved admins could take a look and judge consensus and indicate what needs to be done now (if anything). Fram (talk) 08:00, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

I think there's a page you can go to, to request Rfc closure. GoodDay (talk) 11:51, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes, and then you get listed at the top of this page, with dozens and dozens of others. These also require closing, but the importance overall of a dispute about one article (which is the majority of the above, like "Talk:The Man in the High Castle (TV series)#Should The Man in the High Castle (TV series) be described as science fiction?") is (in my biased opinion) somewhat less than this specific RfC (and some others). Importance + time sensitive nature = posting here instead of only in the list at the top. If you mean another page still, then a pointer in the right direction would help :-) Fram (talk) 12:25, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm on it now. I've been closing some of the oldest RFCs, and am working my way through the backlog. I am finding that if people want their RFCs closed quickly, they need to make them less complicated. This one asks two separate questions, one with six possible options (including, unhelpfully, 'other');, and one with five possible options (again, including 'other'). The more possibly options there are, the more difficult it becomes to easily determine the best close to make. Fish+Karate 12:56, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

There,  Done. Fish+Karate 13:01, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Request

Requesting indef block from Wikipedia. Some admin block me from this site. Thanks. prokaryotes (talk) 12:19, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

 Done RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:15, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

proxies

Hey, is there anyway of detection an open proxy other than CU? I am incredulous at receiving user space vandalism out of Laos from an IP I never saw before. Cheers, -- Dlohcierekim (talk) 13:23, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

You can file a report on WP:OP and have them take a look. There are standard ways to detect open proxies that do not rely on CU or any other admin tools. --Ipatrol (talk) 17:21, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

SQL, has been working on some tools to help with this. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:23, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

A WHOIS lookup on the IP in question says it's associated with a SIP trunking company known as Star Telecom. There are multiple Viettel contact addresses, of which UNITEL (ref. in whois) are the Laos operator. Looks like some weird VoIP into Laos. Sounds like proxy, but maybe not open. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 18:14, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

I looked into this at OPP - I can't find any evidence of this IP currently being a proxy. The netblock this one is from is 183.182.96.0/20, so I would keep an eye on those contribs and see if the vandal pops back up on another IP. SQL^{Query me!} 22:47, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

• Checkuser isn't really useful in detecting proxies. The tool itself is pretty limited, and I think most people would be quite underwhelmed if they got access to it. Wikipedia:WikiProject on open proxies/Guide to checking open proxies is useful, and there are a few websites that purport to detect proxies/VPNs, such as ipqualityscore.com. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 13:33, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject History Merge

• Now that I now know of the new way to auto-histmerge pages (Special:Log/merge, Special:MergeHistory, Wikipedia:Administrators' guide/Fixing cut-and-paste moves#Using the MergeHistory special page), I looked at Wikipedia:WikiProject History Merge, with view of helping there, and I found that the lists of history-merges to be done there, do not seem to have been updated for some years. Where is an up-to-date list of history-merges to be done? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 12:01, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

  @Anthony Appleyard: You could try the contents of Category:Candidates for history merging, which is a list of all the articles tagged with {{Histmerge}}. Fish+Karate 14:23, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

• @Fish and karate: But that does not lead me to any information about the Wikipedia:WikiProject History Merge project. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:53, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
  • According to the page in question, the list was maintained by User:AarghBot which in turn was maintained by User:Mikaey. Unfortunately, User:Mikaey hasn't edited in a year and rarely edits anymore according to his contributions. You might leave an inquiry on their talk page asking them to run a new sequence and, if no response, try recruiting a new bot owner at WP:BOTREQ. Hth, Rgrds. --64.85.216.148 (talk) 21:00, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Special:MergeHistory (the new semi-automatic history-merger)

• I have used Special:MergeHistory twice. These points arise:-
  • If I am history-merging page X into page Y:-
  • Please also let the user specify the oldest edit in Y to keep. I have already run into a case when Y's history started with a redirect to X, and I went back to the old method. There I have to undelete Y separately afterwards, and in the process I can tell it not to undelete that redirect.
  • Please let the user also specify the oldest edit in X to move. That is useful when X is a sandbox-type file that contains the edit histories of 2 or more successive drafts.
    • (This leads into a query about when ever will we have ability to directly delete or move some edits of a file?, instead of the long-way-round of deleting all the file's edits and then undeleting some of its edits.)
  • Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:34, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

    From looking at the description, and the interface itself, I'd say that the tool is really meant for dead-simple copy/paste moves with no convoluted histories. As soon as you have to deal with "this edit but not this one" it's probably better to just do it manually. Primefac (talk) 14:08, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

RIP Admin Bhadani

We have received word that long time administrator Bhadani has passed on. For anyone that was well acquainted with him, an update to Wikipedia:Deceased_Wikipedians would be welcome. Best regards, — xaosflux ^Talk 15:09, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Violations of Five Pillars

• In the past I never had to seek "consensus" but now people of questionable authority are using that guideline as an obstruction technique. I have given up editing several articles because I put in hours of hard work adding knowledge only to have it simply reverted without any explanation, without suggestions, without improvements, without corrections. Those people are following me when I try a minor edit of a few changed words even that is reverted without questions or anything except to be rude and obstructionist. Who are these people? Where have they all come from? There is nothing in the Five Pillars about "consensus". The basic directions are jump in, be bold, assume good faith, build upon previous edits. I can no longer believe anyone who says "consensus" because they simply assume an authoritarian attitude that tells me they are vandals, trolls, or rogue editors. To the management of Wikipedia I plead mercy and ask that you find some way of controlling or removing the obstructionists. Thanks. -- DHT863 (talk) 00:21, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

@DHT863: You have 75 article edits which indicates inexperience with how articles, especially ones that cover controversial topics, are built. Consensus is indeed how content is determined and is explicitly mentioned in WP:5P4. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:52, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks for the info but I quit. Its all yours my friend. -- DHT863 (talk) 01:15, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I have been engaged in a lengthy discussion of these issues on my talk page with DHT863. Any other administrator is welcome to add their thoughts, either here or there. Thank you. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:05, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment)@DHT863:: You are correct that Wikipedia wants us to be WP:BOLD, but at the same time it wants us to be willing to follow WP:DR when there are disagreements over content. So, if you're bold and make an edit, which is then subsequently undone/modified by another editor, then the next thing for you to do is follow WP:BRD and discuss things on the article talk. This means trying to establish a consensus for the changes you want to make; it does not mean posting a message on the talk page and then immediately re-adding the disputed content. WP:SILENCE is often assumed when an edit is made that is not immediately reverted; however, as soon as someone does revert/change (except in the case of WP:VANDAL) the content, then discussion is needed per WP:CONTENTAGE to establish a consensus for inclusion. It's possible that a consensus to not include the content already exists, but a consensus can change which means discussion is still needed. As for your commetn aout other people, the Wikipedia community is made up of people from all over the world, and bascially anyone who want to edit is a WP:WIKIPEDIAN. Certain Wikipedians have been given special "tools" to perform certain tasks because they are considered experienced enough and competent enough by the community to do such things. Adminsitrators are one such type of user, but there are other types as well. Regardless of user type, all Wikipedians are expected to comply with relevant policies and guidelines when they edit, and this sometimes means undoing edits of those who do not. Moreover, checking the contribution histories of editors is not uncommon and it's even considered appropriate to check for other inappropriate edits per WP:HA#NOT. Just a suggestion: If you're being bold and finding a lot of your edits being reverted by others, then maybe it's time to slow down a bit an be a little more WP:CAUTIOUS. Also, you need to be aware how a minor edit is defined by Wikipedia (see WP:MINOR) because that is the definition that matters. Just adding a single sentence to an article might seem minor to you, but might not seem minor to others. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:23, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Need an uninvolved admin to shut something down and send us all to our rooms

Can someone uninvolved please just end this. We can't help ourselves, and it's devolved to pettiness. I would have closed it myself, but I predict with near certainty that someone would reopen it and complain because I'm involved. Thanks. --Jayron32 13:09, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

• Ugh. Will this do? Guy (Help!) 13:21, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

  It will. Thanks. --Jayron32 13:22, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

• I have to say, I laughed at several points in time while skimming through it. Killiondude (talk) 23:24, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Man with long history of publicity stunts stages publicity stunt. Hold the front page! Guy (Help!) 23:27, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Please unclose close at ANI

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I'm asking that this close be undone, so that discussion can continue; i view it as premature. I asked Guy to unclose here, but he believes it is best to leave it closed. He is aware that I have requested this. Jytdog (talk) 13:21, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

• I also believe it best to leave it closed. There does not appear to be developing consensus that POTW acted in bad faith or was behaving disruptively per se, and I'm not sure that venue is appropriate to hold the related policy discussion. If you're interested in formalizing best practices regarding the placement and/or removal of COI tags in general (which is where it seems like the discussion was headed, and what I honestly think is a better use of our time in this direction) then other venues (such as WP:VPP or the talk page at WP:COI) would make better places to have that discussion. --Jayron32 13:26, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
• Le sigh. The thread raised multiple intertwined issues with unclear consensus as to what the actual view of the community might be on the core question of whether Andy is in the right or not. Jytdog is a COI fundamentalist (nothing wrong with that, so am I), Andy is a prolific editor, a tireless advocate for Wikipedia and also, occasionally, a monumental pain in the arse, but the route to resolving this is to get clear consensus via RfC or whatever as to what should be done, and then admins can assess whether it is being done. I seriously doubt if that thread was ever going to yield anything other than bitching by the usual suspects. Guy (Help!) 13:30, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
  • I am fine with getting the policy issues resolved. As I noted at Guy's talk page, it is clear to me how we got here. What needs to stop, is Andy's campaigning that interferes with COI management. That is very bad for him and for the GLAM program generally. The longer that goes on, the more diffs and badness are going to build up. I filed the ANI to get that to stop. Guy mentioned on his talk page that he is talking to Andy. If that is happening and is fruitful, that is enough for me and I will withdraw this request to unclose. Jytdog (talk) 14:00, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

You think it needs to stop, but we're not going to stop it unless there is evidence that what you think is actually the community's consensus view. Guy (Help!) 14:29, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

To take this practically, we're putting the cart before the horse to say that Andy is acting disruptively before we've got firm guidance on how he's supposed to behave here. Let's have the discussion over COI-related best practices, and THEN if he acts against that, we have something. Right now we have no clear firm best practices as to what we should do (when should we tag, when should tags be removed, etc.) If we don't have that clear best practice, then it's just two groups of people bickering over who is right with neither having community consensus behind them. Just because one side or the other is more ascerbic doesn't make their position less or more right. As JzG notes, the personality issues here are not going to get us anywhere useful.--Jayron32 14:33, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Precisely. Guy (Help!) 14:41, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I accept that guidance about how COI tags should be handled is unclear. The aggressive stripping of them, while this is being debated, is not acceptable and POINTY as hell. Two admins said that at ANI, and another admin pointed out the very bad judgement of stripping the tag on one of them, saying clearly that they were not commenting either way on the issue more generally. That is three admins. There was movement toward consensus on the main issue.

That was the purpose of the ANI thread, and I believe it was heading in that direction until it was prematurely closed.

If the close reflected that, it would be acceptable to me.

I am happy to open a new thread more clearly focused on that if that would give you all more comfort that the discussion will be focused.

But again, Guy, if you are talking with Andy offline and it is clear that he will restrain himself, that is enough for me. Please do let me know. Jytdog (talk) 14:47, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Jytdog. Please consider that your position is legitimately, and not necessarily agreed upon by those commenting on this issue-that a clean-up tag that allows an editor to make unfounded accusations of COI could be a negative for Wikipedia. Please consider that the editors commenting are commenting because of concerns that editors may do harm rather than protect the encyclopedia and please consider that editors commenting on this have the integrity to comment for the reasons they give rather than jumping into such a discussion because, as you suggest, they are friends. I pulled out of the RfC because I didn't agree with attempts to control the discussions and outcomes, including ad hominem attacks - the wording of the RfC is one aspect of that. I won't bog down Guy's page or this notice board with discussion but wanted to note that what amounts to accusations of a lack of seriousness on this issue is wrong sighted.(Littleolive oil (talk) 15:17, 9 February 2018 (UTC))

The template says "appears to have". The wording of the RfC is perfectly neutral.The proposed language was added to the instructions in this diff (not be me) following this talk page discussion. Jytdog (talk) 15:31, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

We cannot deal with COI issues by commandeering a clean up tag; neutrality is not the issue.(Littleolive oil (talk) 15:54, 9 February 2018 (UTC))

It is unclear how using a COI tag when there are likely COI issues is "commandeering" it. Bizarre. In any case this is entirely offtopic for this thread. Jytdog (talk) 16:06, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Do you understand that this is not a COI tag; that you are trying to make it a COI tag, that you have started a RfC to try and get consensus to make a tag that deals with potential non -nutrality into a COI tag, and that likely COI damages editors who act in good faith and then are accused of likely COI, an accusation with out proof. I am out of patience with this because it hurts people, Jytdog, that's what the outcome will be. I assume good faith and believe you have the best at heart, but here is a place for COI issues and its not in accusatory drive by tags.(Littleolive oil (talk) 17:34, 9 February 2018 (UTC))

Anything that is as tl;dr as this needs a close as "no consensus." Guy did the right thing. Let this one die a natural death. Montanabw^(talk) 18:04, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for abusing multiple accounts."

Should this warning ever be given, without specifying who the sockmaster is?

What's the point? The socks already know who they are. There's no gain from keeping this secret.

Why is the rest of the editing community excluded here? Socks are a persistent problem, and it's through having lots of editors watching out that we catch them, and catch them early. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:16, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

That is the standard message when you use Twinkle to indef block an obvious sock. It serves two purposes: to alert the community should they want to talk to the person who made an edit, and to alert the user when it's a false positive. Do you have examples where it's a problem? Guy (Help!) 23:21, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Well if you mean, "Would you like to replace the general point you've obviously made deliberately as such, with a specific case so that it can turn into another one-issue pissing match", then no. Do you not think I'd have done that, if I wasn't deliberately avoiding doing so? Andy Dingley (talk) 00:32, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

If I'm blocking for this (and it's not an IP) I usually put the sockmaster's name in the block log, unless it's blatantly obvious. Either that or use the blockedsock template on the sock's userpage. Black Kite (talk) 00:36, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

I'd hope any admin could justify any such block to any relevant person if asked. But there's a few reasons a generic message like this is used: 1) in the vast majority of cases the reasons are blindingly obvious from the edits. 2) It's not always clear who the actual sockmaster is even though the socking is obvious. 3) Revealing accounts and linking IP addresses in some cases such as CU blocks might be potentially privacy-violating for the user involved, so shouldn't necessarily always be made very public. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 23:32, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

...and 4) When the sock is an LTA, sockmaster or meatpuppet group looking to gain recognition and we are wanting to DENY them.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 23:39, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

In many cases they are obvious at the time. But there's also a historical aspect to it. Sometimes sock hunting means going back over an old trail a year or so later, long after memory has become unreliable. Also in many cases it's not obvious. Nor will some admins even respond to such enquiries, at least not from the plebs. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:35, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Do you have examples or is there a particular case in mind where we might be able to assist you?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:01, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

There is also an important WP:DENY factor. Some people have a hobby of disruptively socking and are encouraged when they get particular attention. A generic message is much better than splashing the name of an LTA around the project. If evidence of blocks being inappropriately applied is found, the admin has their tools removed after an Arbcom case. That is very rare, although obviously there will be occasional false positives. What is the actual problem? Johnuniq (talk) 01:13, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

• I think Andy has a point, here, though it might be better to discuss it at a page more tightly focused on that message and the twinkle implementation of it. I've seen this before with editors who were being problematic before their block, and not knowing anything about who was behind the socking left me with the nagging doubt that I might not immediately recognize the next sock. And: No, I can't give specific examples, either. It's been at least a few weeks since I saw something like this. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 01:15, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Tangential discussion

I realize this is off-topic but I wonder if an admin could look into this. I recently noticed something that I find surprising. This User was blocked as being a sock puppet. This looks like a productive editor to me. This User initiated many articles on individual works of art, including the now popular Selfportrait at 6th wedding anniversary, the artist's birthday having just passed. Could the blocking of that User have been a mistake? Bus stop (talk) 00:03, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Not a mistake. This was a sock of User:Slowking4 who was a productive editor but was indefblocked for (a) persistent copyright problems and (b) persistent abuse of anyone who cautioned them about their copyright problems. You can't see their deleted contributions, but it consists of hundreds upon hundreds of deleted images that were uploaded as fair use - but weren't. His user page still has a "Say Yes to Fair Use" banner - scroll to the bottom. Black Kite (talk) 00:21, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Hi Black Kite, thank you. I just thought I would point out that the charges are disputed. I am unfamiliar with the case. I think I just know good work when I see it. Bus stop (talk) 01:26, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

I don't dispute the fact that most of his work here was good, unfortunately however when you're unable to adhere to a core policy the inevitable result is being blocked. Black Kite (talk) 01:29, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Black Kite and Bus stop, I'm the one who levied Slowking's indefinite block, but I don't remember the incident, so please take this as a general statement. When your problem is serial copyright infringement (whether abuse of fair use, or outright false claims of authorship), we have to clamp down hard (and be unforgiving on sockpuppetry), even harder than with community-damaging activities such as persistent abuse of people who caution you about your problems. Usenet didn't get in trouble with outsiders for its flame wars, and we won't get in trouble with outsiders if we permit personal attacks, but copyright ignoring will definitely be a problem. I'm inclined to be lenient toward a productive account that turns out to be a sockpuppet, and if you get blocked for vandalism and register a sockpuppet that creates a good article, I won't G5 delete it (if the article's good, why trash it), but if you get blocked for copyright-related reasons, hardblocking and deletion (unless the status can be verified, like this one as a translation of a WP article) are the only safe course for the project. Nyttend (talk) 15:16, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Hi Nyttend—veteran editors in the visual arts have opposed what amounts to unfair treatment of the visual arts (my words, not theirs) concerning notability requirements for such entities as works of art and art galleries and, getting to the point in this discussion, the justification for inclusion of images of works of art. A problem is that "Fair use" should be loosened for works of art. They are essentially visual. Art education calls for seeing works of art. Any commentary is almost of secondary importance. Blocking an editor that abuses the current guidelines on inclusion of images should be tempered by an understanding of their underlying motives. In short, perhaps they should be given a second chance, if they explain that they understand the serious risk to the project that may be posed by the unthinking inclusion of too many such images. Bus stop (talk) 15:39, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

You're going to have to wait for a proper response, since I don't remember anything of this block's circumstances, but I'm looking into it now. Nyttend (talk) 15:45, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

I've spotchecked a bunch of images, and all of them were photographs; maybe you'd find a little art in there if you checked everything, but if there's any there, it's not much. File:Delia Akeley.jpg was particularly egregious: it was deleted at Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2013 April 17#File:Delia Akeley.jpg because the nominator found a free image (okay, we all can overlook a free image), but then it was again deleted at Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2013 May 8#File:Delia Akeley.jpg because Slowking uploaded another nonfree image (rationale: no demonstration that a free photo exists; rather your flights of fancy doubt that one doesn't. prove a free photo exists by uploading one. as we can see in this photo, family photos can exist that remain in copyright; prove that the existing photos in books are free and not under copyright.) instead of uploading the free image. When you're having a large number of images deleted for improper fair-use claims, the only appropriate responses are "I'll be much more careful" (and complying) or "I'll stop uploading nonfree images". But when you make this kind of argument, and you keep going and uploading more such images despite warnings and a block, there's no reason to believe that you'll stop unless you are stopped. Nyttend (talk) 16:07, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

I don't doubt your justification for blocking. I'm trying to explain factors that have not been addressed yet, factors particular to the place of visual images in visual arts, and and that particular editor's attempt to build good quality articles in that area. It takes a degree of good sense to initiate on the English Wikipedia an article on Paula Modersohn-Becker especially the painting called Selfportrait at 6th wedding anniversary. (To be clear, the article "Paula Modersohn-Becker" was not initiated by the editor we are discussing.) When I saw that article I looked to see who initiated it. When I saw that the editor was a blocked editor I was quite surprised, and even further surprised when I looked at their editing contributions. The sensibility there impressed me. I personally have a liking for articles on individual works of art. Check out Portrait of the Artist's Father. I'm sure many don't share my interest. But that is a worthy article that we probably wouldn't have if not for that editor's contributions. Bus stop (talk) 16:27, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry: I thought you were politely uestioning whether this user's block were perhps becuse the fir use policy ws being pplied too strictly to rtworks, such s pintings. Nyttend (talk) 16:41, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

I stand guilty of being too polite. I will try harder not to let politeness get in the way of arguing a larger point. I apologize and I promise never to do it again. Please accept my contrition as sincerely bleating out of the heart. Bus stop (talk) 16:54, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

No need to apologise :-) Sorry for the partial legibility of the previous note; my new computer's "a" and "q" keys are malfunctioning (intermittently...ugg) so I have to copy/paste the letter "a" if I want to type it, and I forgot. I'll be glad when the warranty shipping box arrives in the mail. Nyttend (talk) 18:02, 10 February 2018 (UTC)