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See also: Logged AE sanctions

Important information

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Please use this page only to:

request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator,
request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic,
request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or
appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators.

For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard.

Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.

To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.

Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following:

All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction.

The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may:

ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email.

Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template.

A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted.

Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction

An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies:

The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change,^[a] or is no longer an administrator;^[b] or
The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and:
- the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
- the restriction was an indefinite block.

A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction:

a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN,
a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA.

Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped.

Standard of review
On community review

Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.

On Arbitration Committee review

Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

^ The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^ This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

Appeals by sanctioned editors

Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:

ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org).

Modifications by administrators

No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.

Information for administrators processing requests

Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.

A couple of reminders:

Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request.
When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X".
Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Wikipedia and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Wikipedia policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it.
More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated.

Closing a thread:

Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days.
Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct.
You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages.
Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log.

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Racassidy54

Racassidy54 is topic-banned from chlordane. Sandstein 09:24, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Racassidy54

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Kingofaces43 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:51, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Racassidy54 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#1RR_imposed

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Discretionary_Sanctions

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms##Casting_aspersions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

April 16, 2014: WP:COI, example among others of citing themself. Discussion on talk page shows they try to sell chlordane detection and remediation products.
[1][2] Jan 22-23, 2018: 1RR violation along with this restoring WP:MEDRS and WP:MOS violations.
[3][4][5][6] Jan 24, 2018: More 1RR violations with casting aspersions in edit summaries.
Jan 2017 and 2018 More casting aspersions about COI when editor was confronted about their own COI.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This is mostly an WP:SPA issue at chlordane, a pesticide. At first I thought this was just a newcomer issue, but it looks like the issues go beyond being able to talk an editor through Wikipedia processes. The direct DS related issues are the 1RR and casting aspersions issues in diffs above. Within that, this editor has been restoring non-MEDRS sources and MOS violations through edit warring while making an appeal to being an expert whenever editors try to show them the edit was not appropriate: With my broad background/knowledge on chlordane and its health effects I am a leading expert. Justifications for these edit removals, on wikipedia for a year, are not true.[7]. This editor identifies their real-life identity on their user pages, which reveals they are trying to cite their own primary journal articles in the article, and as Smokefoot pointed out, that they also market chlordane detection and remediation products.[8] This is a pretty clear COI related to chlordane in addition to the editor acting way too close to the topic even from a WP:EXPERT standpoint.

They've also been casting aspersions towards editors that either bring up their COI or edits with comments like One should mindful of the potential conflict of interest (COI) by the chlordane industry to minimize the health effects of chlordane. Go to PubMed and see all the health-related research. Question motives of editors who give employment or publications . . . Editors who text delete should give employment and publications in UserTalk page[9]. Cassidy was also warned for this by Edgar181 a second time after they were cautioned about this as part of the WP:ASPERSIONS principle in the DS notification.

I'm not a fan of handing out topic-bans, especially to relatively new editors, but a narrow topic-ban on chlordane-related topics may be needed for this SPA given that they've been getting cautions for over a year about slowing down without stopping. I'd hope that would force them to learn the ropes in a non-COI area where they hopefully won't be so hot-headed like we've seen here. I'm open to other suggestions, but it doesn't look like the route of trying to explain things to this editor (especially how we ask WP:EXPERT editors to act) is working. This kind of confrontational attitude is whatwe've been trying to keep out of this DS topic. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:51, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just asking for clarification if this goes the route of probation, but since this editor has a COI (beyond an expert editor citing their own work), they are already expected not to directly edit the article and only use the talk page. Is that more or less the intent people are having with the probation idea? Otherwise, the topic ban is functionally similar to what would happen otherwise, though the probation gives a little more room to learn (but also more opportunity to tug a fairly short rope in the topic). Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:21, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also just in case it was missed in the timeline, the first two set of diffs are indeed before the DS notification (though still disruptive behavior), but the second 1RR violation and aspersions were after the notification. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:18, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[10]

Discussion concerning Racassidy54

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Racassidy54

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Racassidy54

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Racassidy54, if I take you at your word as an expert on chlordane, then thanks for editing. However, you need to conform to the expectations at Wikipedia when it comes to behavior. Most of this activity came before a proper Arb notice was posted, but some of it was completely pointless, like the reverts with Ed. The problem I often find with "experts" in any field is they often know a topic very well, but perhaps to a point that they are inflexible when it comes to dealing with others in a collaborative environment. Expert or not, you are on the same footing as me or any other editor when it comes to the topic of chlordane, and I freely admit no knowledge. Still, we are equals. That expertise doesn't allow you to force your edits to an article. It is best used to persuade others to your point of view on the talk page. Even if your edits are the "truth", we build this encyclopedia by consensus, not by what one man thinks the truth is. This feels more like an ANI case than an AE case, so let me offer you this: choose your words carefully, don't cast aspersions about others, USE THE TALK PAGE. And while I'm here, if you want to add a citation to your own published works: Don't. Put it on the talk page, tell others where you would like it inserted, and let them decide. Then be sure to admit you have a COI on your user page. Even I have a COI statement on my user page. Most people have a COI when it comes to one thing or another. Of course, my speech here doesn't stop any other admin from coming in and sanctioning you (either as an AE or plain Admin action). Before I would opt for that, I am curious to hear how you want to move forward. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:37, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I think a topic ban for actions that happened before they were informed of the Arb case would be too strong. Not saying it won't happen eventually, but I don't see that they had fair warning for us to take such a strong action today. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:24, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Coffee, perhaps limiting them to the talk page on this article (or any article on the same topic) for a month while they get up to speed on how we do things. They obviously have some skills, albeit not necessarily social ones. If they can learn the ropes while still participating in limited way, there is a chance we can gain a useful editor. Honestly, they could use just a little mentoring. Regardless of how we approach probation, it is a better solution than outright tbanning. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:34, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is a WP:SPA with a WP:COI. Both are problematic. I suggest a chlordane topic ban until they prove that they can make useful contributions to other topics in a collegial manner. Sandstein 22:40, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
With these many issues easily identifiable, I believe what's in order is an indefinite topic ban from all things that can be broadly construed to do with chlordane. Violations of this topic-ban should result in a first block of a week in length followed by escalations from there if necessary. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 06:27, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @Dennis Brown: Perhaps we can use the rarely utilized Probation (supervised editing) editing restriction here? The user on probation may be banned from pages that they edit in a certain way (usually disruptively) by an uninvolved administrator. Probation is usually used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:55, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Then mark me down as for the editor being placed on probation, as this seems the best way forward here. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 17:47, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I could see the probation being worth a shot. Having dealt with massive disruption from self-styled experts in longevity topics, this isn't rising nearly to that level; go with it and anything that goes awry from there will be easy to handle, and if nothing does then we have an expert editing in the field. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:22, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Probation is an obscure remedy and is hardly ever used. (Check WP:DSLOG). You may have to explain probation both to the user and to any future admins. (Explaining bans is hard enough). Why not just close with a warning: if User:Racassidy54 makes any further reverts on the topic of chlordane (without getting talk page consensus first) they may be banned from the topic by any administrator. EdJohnston (talk) 20:30, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Given this edit made about three hours ago, with no attempt to address issues here, I support an indefinite topic ban from Chlordane, broadly construed. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:54, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, hard to argue with that. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:33, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User:Edgar181 has blocked Racassidy54 24 hours,making the following note in the block log, "Disruptive editing: continued edit warring and inappropriate edit summaries despite being warned by three separate editors..". EdJohnston (talk) 03:41, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Closing with the suggested topic ban. Sandstein 09:24, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Debresser

Declined. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 12:27, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Debresser (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction being appealed: diff - Debresser (talk · contribs) blocked 2 week as a result of a consensus of administrators at the Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard.

Administrator imposing the sanction: A consensus of administrators at WP:AE. Actioned by Coffee.

Notification of that administrator: The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by Debresser

Two reasons: 1. I would have reverted myself if not that the page was protected. 2. It would be more logical to simply topic ban me for two weeks, then I could continue editing in other areas.

Note: Reason copied from the user's talk page and the remainder filled in by GoldenRing (talk) 14:04, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kingsindian

AE sanctions can be appealed at AE, or AN or ARCA. Of course, appeals are rarely granted, but still, there's nothing wrong with the request itself. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@SoWhy and Dennis Brown: Just on one point, Debresser did indicate (late) in the AE that they are prepared to self revert (and that the article was protected). See this diff. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 02:50, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Coffee

I no longer care what happens... but the result is inevitable anyways. I'm done arguing with people who want to stress me out on purpose. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 16:11, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Speedy decline - And add a topic ban from AE, for disrupting process by appealing something we literally just came to a consensus about. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 14:13, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
When you previously stated nothing further Debresser could say here could possibly excuse this action, it makes it difficult to argue that you are acting in an uninvolved manner. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Read this again, and I'll put the emphasis in there for you: One important caveat is that an administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role, or whose prior involvements are minor or obvious edits which do not speak to bias, is not involved and is not prevented from acting in an administrative capacity in relation to that editor or topic area. This is because one of the roles of administrators is precisely to deal with such matters, at length if necessary. Warnings, calm and reasonable discussion and explanation of those warnings, advice about community norms, and suggestions on possible wordings and approaches do not make an administrator 'involved'.— Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 14:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And your text above I commented on fits none of the bolded categories. Dude, when I'm saying "you know, you might be INVOLVED", that's when it's time to panic. :-) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:46, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You need to take some time to just read the top of this appeal: Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED). Why are there any admins commenting here without any knowledge of these things (including yourself)? This isn't a noticeboard for admins who have no experience in AE. Continuing to bludgeon your ignorance here about this topic is not looking good for you my friend. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 14:50, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, you need to read the instructions, not just the summary. Administrators may not adjudicate their own actions at any appeal though they are encouraged to provide statements and comments to assist in reaching a determination. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:27, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Coffee: Actually, I think Sarek, Neil et al are right on this one - the relevant ~~policy~~procedure authorised by the committee is in WP:AC/DS#Expectations of administrators, which Sarek has quoted above. GoldenRing (talk) 15:36, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Your thoughts do not policy make... read the damn top of this very appeal... and literally every appeal. That is our practices here... why everyone is throwing such a large stink about this I really don't know. Let me be, I can't even log off to de-stress after today when y'all keep pinging me for absolutely meaningless crap. *headdesk* — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)More directly, I was quoting Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Procedures#Enforcement, linked from the "damn top of this very appeal". --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If we're both quoting from the same place, why the hell are you telling me I can't use my own eyes and read the exception to the rules you keep referring to in an WP:IDHT fashion: Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED). — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:48, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GoldenRing: Didn't you literally claim I couldn't do this? Talk about hypocrisy. I've lost all interest in this case. You all just keep making a fuss about what is going to be the inevitable result of this appeal anyways: declined. Jesus Christ... what a time-vacuum. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 16:09, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Malik Shabazz

I recommend that the appeal be declined. The reason Debresser was unable to self-revert is that 15 minutes after he started edit-warring at an article where he has a history of edit-warring, Favonian protected the page. It seems to me that Debresser is complaining that he should be unblocked because he was prevented from cleaning up the disruption he created because others had taken steps to minimize its damage. That's a lot of chutzpah. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:42, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 3)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Debresser

I have had a long history of severe problems with Debresser, (he thinks my edits 'inferior' to his) but, on a point of order, I think he didn't, Coffee, deliberately try to disrupt 'AE' where this notice has been posted on his behalf. As comments on his request on his talk page show, he didn't know where to post it, -AN was one option- and in fairness, this should be cleared up.Nishidani (talk) 14:29, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly oppose an AE topic ban as was suggested below. Appealing something immediately after a decision being reached is entirely proper (and, in fact, is more appropriate than waiting a long time to do it). Realistically, Debrasser should've requested an appeal at AN, or just submitted it directly to the Committee via e-mail. The timing of this appeal is entirely non-disruptive, and in my view, cannot be disruptive. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 15:40, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A two-week topic ban seems more appropriate than a two-week block given the discretionary sanctions are topic related. Agree with Sandstein that ban is more appropriate. --DHeyward (talk) 17:56, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by Debresser

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I agree that the intervening protection preventing a self-revert is a complicating factor here - but I see no indication from before this sanction was placed that the user would have self-reverted if they could have. Their response when it was suggested was "I'll think about that". Otherwise, the block was within admin discretion and supported by multiple admins. Decline. GoldenRing (talk) 15:51, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Since you opined in the first, not sure if you should in the appeal. Opinions vary on that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It has been established, I think, that admins commenting in AE threads do so in an administrative capacity and therefore remain uninvolved in appeals. It's up to the user if they want to appeal here, where they are likely to meet the same admins again, or at WP:AN. But the sanctioning admin is normally treated as involved solely for the purpose of the appeal. Sandstein 16:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Coffee and Dennis Brown: Sandstein's comment here summs up my understanding of it; the relevant committee procedure (which has already been quoted repeatedly, I know) is "Administrators may not adjudicate their own actions at any appeal," which I read to mean that administrators are considered involved in appeals of sanctions which they have placed themselves. GoldenRing (talk) 17:20, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GoldenRing, Dennis Brown, and Sandstein: So what you're essentially saying here is that it's best to never be the actioning administrator? Because it seems a hell of a lot like my administrative opinion loses value by simply taking care of what needs to be done. This is ridiculous. I will never close an AE thread again, you can guarantee that. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 17:23, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You extrapolate too much out of what I said. I only said that if an admin participated in an AE, they shouldn't participate in the appeal of that exact same AE case. It doesn't make them involved in any other way, just in that single report. That wouldn't stop them from sanctioning on a different issue, nor invoke WP:involved at all. Allowing an appeal to be considered by completely different admin is just good judgement. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of however you paint this ridiculous picture, my position stands. You all can enjoy handling closing these from now on, and I'll sit back and keep my ability to use my administrative voice using the experience I have to actually have an impact here. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 17:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Decline appeal with one note - What I have to look at is not what I would do, but what is normal, necessary and reasonable. Considering your history, two weeks block is within admin discretion. There isn't any question that broke 1RR, although the fact that it was full protected directly after DOES complicate it a bit, as you had no opportunity to revert. That doesn't mean you would have. Had you gone to the talk page or to the protecting admin and requested a revert, then that argument would carry more weight. I looked at Favonian's page and the article talk page, but didn't see it. The problem is that on technical grounds, I don't see a fault here. The sanction might be on the strong side (your last block was 3 days) but not so far outside the norm that it is outside of admin discretion. Of course, if Coffee wants to modify the sanction to a topic ban for a month +/-, I would be supportive of that as well, as that would be more in line with what I might have recommended, but I can't see any justification to compel him to, nor any reason to overturn his decision, as at least two admin thought a 2 week block was due. As far as his comments go, I don't see that relevant or prejudicial considering it was an obvious case of breaching 1RR. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Decline or convert to longer topic ban Since Coffee only instituted what multiple admins had said, I see 2 weeks block within discretion as well. I also note that while protection made self-reverting impossible, there is no indication that Debresser actually wanted to self-revert, per Dennis et. al. However, since we cannot rule out that he would have done so, I'd be open to offer Debresser an alternative to declining the appeal, i.e. converting said block to a topic ban for a month as Dennis suggests. Regards So Why 16:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agreed with the ban and I would accordingly decline this appeal, which provides no new arguments and does not address the conduct for which the ban was imposed. Sandstein 16:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: TheTimesAreAChanging (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:13, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: "TheTimesAreAChanging placed on indefinite probation in the topic area for refusal to gain consensus before making controversial edits."

Administrator imposing the sanction: Coffee (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: [11]

Statement by TheTimesAreAChanging

I made a single normal edit to List of Trump–Russia dossier allegations, which I believe was mandated by BLP, at 19:54, 25 January 2018, after previously broaching the idea two days earlier and getting qualified support from My very best wishes. BullRangifer, the creator of the article and who has a very different perspective on these matters than I do, thanked me for my edit, later defending it on the talk page. The article was not under DS at the time; if it had been, I probably would have been less collaborative, as there were several paragraphs of "Commentary" (e.g., here) that I might have "challenged." (If possible—creating a new article without such sanctions is obviously a way to bypass them and force content through, if the content is considered "long-standing" by the time the sanctions are in force.) Yet SPECIFICO, who had no problem with the several paragraphs of opinion commentary, reverted my addition of the widely-reported testimony of Trump's longtime bodyguard, Keith Schiller, stating that "Statement of Trump's denial is sufficient." I disagreed, so I made a single normal revert at 07:19, 26 January. (To date, none of the editors in the ensuing discussion have agreed with SPECIFICO.) Ten hours later, after SPECIFICO inaccurately told Coffee that I had violated the article's non-existent DS at 17:39, Coffee added the template (including his brand-new "civility" requirement) at 17:43 and logged it at 17:45. While acknowledging that "I couldn't do more as the page restrictions hadn't been added to that article yet," Coffee still decided to place me on indefinite probation for violating the DS, which he apparently considered to take effect retroactively. ~~I think this sanction is just another example of Coffee's heavy-handed and erratic behavior as an administrator, and would like to see it reviewed and revoked.~~TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:13, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Floquenbeam, I am 99% certain that DS were not in effect at the time of my edit, and I looked carefully. Once the talk page has been tagged, I believe that the warning remains visible on earlier revisions of the talk page, but that does not mean that the warning was actually there the whole time. That's why I included Coffee's confirmation that "the page restrictions hadn't been added to that article yet," as well as the relevant log, which states: "List of Trump–Russia dossier allegations placed under indefinite 1RR/consensus/civility required restriction."TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:11, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Floquenbeam, I honestly did not see that. I've stricken my comment above.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:25, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

When SPECIFICO violated Discretionary Sanctions at Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections ([12], [13]), I warned her and she self-reverted. When I (inadvertently) violated Discretionary Sanctions (that had not been logged, with no edit notice), I returned to Wikipedia and suddenly found that SPECIFICO had reported me directly to Coffee and I had already been sanctioned, with no opportunity to respond. How is this sanction anything but punitive?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mandruss, this comment really misses the mark. No, I didn't check the log, but I obviously wouldn't have made the edit if there had been an edit notice.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the talk page as of the time of my revert: [14] I had not edited it, and there was not yet any discussion of the disputed content. Coffee could have easily asked me to self-revert before immediately imposing a new hard-to-understand restriction.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:26, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

SPECIFICO and Volunteer Marek continue to misrepresent Coffee's stated rationale for the "probation" restriction, which is not that I violated any DS (none were logged for that page), but rather that I failed to preemptively go beyond the requirements of DS in seeking consensus before making any potentially controversial edits. By that standard, all of us could arbitrarily be put under "probation." Some admins say that, in fact, all of us already are under informal probation by virtue of editing in an area subject to DS, but—contrary to SPECIFICO's latest comment—I am deeply concerned that this "probation" is poorly understood and will probably be used against me in some arbitrary way at a later date even if it does not have any immediate effect. I also have grave concerns that Coffee's "Consensus Required" restriction itself outlaws normal BRD and has created a chilling effect in this topic area, and that his newly-invented "civility" restriction will further compound the problem.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:54, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Coffee

Trying to go to sleep but I have to correct what is being misrepresented here: The sanction was for a violation of overall WP:ARBAP2's standards of conduct. It was done under authority of WP:ARBAPDS which allow administrators the ability to apply sanctions at their discretion to anyone editing in the topic area. As this user was already made aware of the DS existing in the topic area, the sanction was made in full validity. It was not a sanction based on page restrictions. And my sanctioning of the article, after realizing it wasn't during the review I made, had nothing to do with the probation sanction placed on this user. This is made extremely clear in the sanction notice, and I feel this user is being obtuse. I also agree that this user has already violated the probation sanction (by the comments on their talk page), and I would personally levy a 24 hour block for such conduct. I however really, really need rest after today's events (some of you are aware of) and therefore will not be conducting that action. This is all I will state here for now. Good night/day folks. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 21:23, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'll reiterate for some who are confused on this: The probation restriction is explained in detail at WP:EDR, which is the list of restrictions I'm permitted to use (along with blocks) per my discretion in the topic area, as per WP:ARBAPDS. This sanction is merely more of a severe warning, with one additional caveat: it states that regardless if they edit an article with a direct editnotice on it, with the consensus restriction required, they are not allowed to violated our WP:CONSENSUS or WP:BRD policy in any area of the AP2 topic area. This is simply a way to attempt to prevent disruption, without levying an actual topic ban or a full editing restriction on the user in all topic areas. The full explanation of this is found at our policy: WP:PROBATION: The user on probation may be banned from pages that they edit in a certain way (usually disruptively) by an uninvolved administrator. Probation is usually used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 12:43, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Seraphimblade: See above for further reasoning on why I think this may actually benefit editing in the topic area. Interested to hear your thoughts. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 13:00, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Lankiveil and Seraphimblade: See this note above and my comments in the appeal below this one regarding this matter. Pinging to keep you both in the loop here.

— Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:34, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein: Your second comment here is currently in violation of the Arbitration Committee's expectations of administrators in dealing on this noticeboard: "Administrators wishing to dismiss an enforcement request should act cautiously and be especially mindful that their actions do not give the impression that they are second-guessing the Arbitration Committee or obstructing the enforcement of their decisions." - I highly suggest you retract it. Or that whomever closes this completely disregards the remark. We are not here to question or comment on ArbCom's decisions, or their decided ways of dealing with conduct issues. All administrators commenting here should have known this before making any statements here whatsoever. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:41, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MrX

TheTimesAreAChanging unambiguously violated the page restriction prohibiting reinstatement of any challenged (via reversion) edits without obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article. As surprised that I am that he received the lightest possible sanction, I'm actually shocked that he would have the audacity to appeal it.

In my opinion, ~~the sanction should be increased to a topic ban for blatantly abusing process by Wikilawyering and wasting editors time.~~- Mr X 🖋 20:28, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Floquenbeam: Yes, I did overlook that the edit notice was placed after the fact. That does make the situation a bit more ambiguous. However, TheTimesAreAChanging reverted without consulting the talk page which does not bode well in his favor.- Mr X 🖋 21:03, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

TTAAC wasn't sanctioned for violating an editing restriction; he was sanctioned for "repeated refusal to gain consensus before making controversial edits in the topic area." It is well within an admin's authority to place such a sanction on an editor, so the appeal is completely without merit.- Mr X 🖋 21:27, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SPECIFICO

ToTTAAC: Please don't misrepresent my actions by stating the article was not under the Consensus DS at the time you violated it. The history of the talk page clearly shows the DS in effect at that time. [15] Coffee later updated it to add the Civility Requirement. Please withdraw this appeal and if you edit according to policy you will have no further concerns.

Frankly, given TTAAC's previous TBAN, his socking to evade the ban (necessitating in a block on top of the ban [16] and then his quickly-broken assurances that prompted Sandstein to reinstate him, "escalating sanctions" would suggest that a new TBAN would not be unexpected. It's therefore hard to see any problem with the probation imposed by Coffee. SPECIFICO talk 20:34, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Now I just saw that TTAAC is broadcasting the same disparagement of me and Coffee on the article talk page. Given that he just acknowledged awareness of the Civility Requirement, it seems that a new, second, violation of the DS has occurred as well as a violation of his Probation sanction. [17]

@MjolnirPants and MrX: The new DS template added the Civility Restriction replacing the former template that already included the Consensus Restriction. [18] The Consensus Restriction was in effect at the time of the violation, plainly visible both at the time of the edit and at the time he denied and removed my request on his talk page that he undo the violation. SPECIFICO talk 21:33, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@DHeyward: I meant to ping you, not MP above. Sorry. You appear to have repeated TTAAC's misrepresentation of the Consensus Required sanction on that page when he made the offending edit. SPECIFICO talk 23:55, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am not understanding TTAAC's basis for keeping this appeal open. Here [19] he concedes that he violated the Consensus Required sanction. He says "why wasn't I warned and asked to self-revert?" But here, I warned him six hours before he was sanctioned and asked him to self revert. And his response was to deny the violation, even after he was sanctioned: [20] It's pretty simple and for those who are not familiar with the difficulties of editing American Politics, this is an example of how much time can be wasted denying, discussing, and proving the obvious, all still apparently with no resolution. TTAAC, why not just withdraw the appeal. What basis is their for the appeal given the facts? SPECIFICO talk 00:21, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein: RE: Probation - Types of Sanctions and WP:PROBATION. I can understand that you disagree with the particular sanction, but the violation of DS is clear and it's part of a long-term pattern of abuse. So I suggest that the solution, if you disapprove of the Probation sanction, would be to apply one you feel would be more suitable and effective. SPECIFICO talk 14:55, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@My very best wishes: Please see immediately above. SPECIFICO talk 17:42, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@My very best wishes: OK, you don't think that WP:PROBATION is meaningful. Is it the purpose of an appeal at this page to second-guess site norms? This is not even the claim the appellant makes. He seems to be going for "I am not actually a disruptive editor" -- i.e. that there's been an error of fact. But nobody's buying that one. So why not propose a different sanction. Sanctions are supposed to be escalating for repeat violations. His last one was an indefinite TBAN he slithered out of. He's wasted a lot of community time since then, routinely disparaging other editors (not least yourself) and failing to engage in collaborative editing. Do you suggest we just wait for the next reunion to rehash the same behaviors next time? SPECIFICO talk 18:40, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the Admin comments don't appear to focus on the theory of this appeal or the powers of Admins in AE appeals. They read more like box seats at a command performance of ANI. TTAAC has not complained about the particular sanction that Coffee imposed. TTAAC has denied the violation. After all the trouble taken to refute this deflection, does any Admin still believe it's true? So we have an infraction, and in the case of this editor it's one of dozens that have been documented here over the course of the past +/- 16 months. Many of the editors who went to the trouble of providing diffs in those past cases, including the ones that resulted in sanctions, may well have concluded that there's no willingness to enforce DS, let alone escalating blocks, and so the editors with memory of all the bad behavior simply move on. I certainly am not going to waste a bright sunny day dredging up the history of this sad dysfunction and disruption. If you don't like the particular sanction, propose a more effective one. Which Admin is going to waste his or her time in the future exercising discretion when it's only a gateway to the Royal ANI here that AE has become? Otherwise, an AP3 Arbcom case will come sooner or later and what a regrettable outcome that will have been! SPECIFICO talk 18:08, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As so often happens at these AE threads, the appellant, given enough time, is hoisted with his own petard. In this diff [21] TTAAC says contrary to SPECIFICO's latest comment — I am deeply concerned that this "probation" is poorly understood and will probably be used against me. Now first off, he misrepresents what I wrote (as can be verified from that link). I said that he has not presented any complaint about WP:PROBATION as a theory that supports vacating his sanction. But he (either incompetently or disingenuously) states that his "deep concern" means I somehow misrepresented his unstated inner concerns. This may look like nitpicking. Fine, he realized that after my post he hadn't a leg to stand on so he wanted to add to the file. Maybe -- we don't know. But my reason for pointing this out is that TTAAC in numerous talk page posts and many edit summaries on many articles, will include utterly irrelevant personal remarks (almost always disparaging ones) that add nothing to the discussion or to the article text we're all trying to improve. Admins, please look at TTAAC's post. It's typical of so much of his participation. His personal remark about me is entirely gratuitous. But it is an instructive example of his behavior. The personalized remark about me adds nothing to the meaning or significance of his message. And yet, TTAC does this over and over, even after previous AE sanctions -- sanctions after which a rational adjustment in style and tone could well have been expected. And never mind the irony that he's concerned about the harm that might come to him due to false aspersions that could be "used against" him -- even concerning a violation that numerous editors have researched and documented here. SPECIFICO talk 23:45, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Steve Quinn

On the article's talk page, several editors have indeed noted that remedies and sanctions were in place when TTAC restored the material (without consensus):

SPECIFICO [22], [23];
Seemingly inderectly by Atsme [24],
Volunteer Marek [25],
Galobtter [26],
Mandruss [27]] (It was more of question while supplying a diff showing sanctions were previously in place [28]), Then stating that "the remedies and DS were in place as of four days ago" [29]
And most recently, myself, apparently after this appeal had already started [30].

So, in a manner of speaking, this was an opportunity for TTAC to undo their edit rather seek an appeal. As was noted below, this is now an opportunity to undo the edit and withdraw the appeal, or simply withdraw the appeal and save time. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 06:14, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I meant, it seems there was an opportunity for TTAC to undo their edit, and thereby collaboratively participate, before an Admin felt the need to sanction him/her. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 06:32, 27 January 2018 (UTC)`[reply]

The focus here is not BRD. The focus here is editing according to consensus rules. Anyone who has edited on WP:ARBAP2 pages for any reasonable length of time knows about this. It seems all the non-admins on this page are experienced in the WP:ARBAP2 area. And in this instance there were warnings from other editors that went unheeded. I also wish to commend Coffee for watching this area in order to keep the peace in a forthright and reasonable manner. Coffee seems to have explained what probation is supposed to be. And I think this is better than an outright topic ban or a block, imho. I don't know what other option there is? imho. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 02:58, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Volunteer Marek

With regard to TTAAC's action I don't think there is any doubt that they violated the DS. TTAAC is also quite aware of how this works, as they've been sanctioned for this before, they've brought reports against others, they've commented widely on DS in this topic area, etc. There's basically no way they did not know they were breaking a DS.

So TTAC broke DS. It looks to me like User:Coffee was trying to be nice about it. I'm guessing because he previously caught some slack for being heavy handed (including from me). So he imposed the "probation" instead of an outright topic ban, probably hoping that'd result in less controversy. But sometimes, with some people... you give an inch, they try to take a mile. That's what's going on with this appeal.

In my understanding a "probation" is essentially a "soft" topic ban from a particular article. By that I mean that the user is not outright banned from an article, and may continue to edit it, but at any time, if any uninvolved admin thinks they're not acting in good faith, then the ban hammer comes down. It's basically a "continue to edit this article at your own risk" kind of restriction.

I have no idea who came up with this. I don't like it. But that's just my view, and this is indeed one of the proscribed remedies over at WP:EDR, so it was perfectly fine for Coffee to use it. And regardless in this particular case, some kind of sanction was warranted, and Coffee, rather than being criticized should be commended for trying to be diplomatic and "soft". But as always on Wikipedia, no good deed...

Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Let me also suggest that IF you're going to grant this appeal (whether outright, or replace the probation with a straight up topic ban) then please, somebody go and make the necessary changes to WP:EDR so this web of bureaucratic policies and sanctions doesn't get even more discombobulated.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:21, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by JFG

Oh God such wikilawyering! Cut the drama, vacate the sanction, and trout SPECIFICO for their propension to snitch on fellow editors. — JFG ^talk 11:24, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Seraphim System

Comment I don't think our policies are meant to be combed through to find obscure and rarely cited sections - part of applying and interpreting them is following community norms and customs. For these rules to be effective as deterrents they need to be predictable and comprehensible, based on predictable standards of enforcement that have been developed in community discussions about their applications. My understanding of how a situation like this would usually be handled is that an editor would be formally warned, and then brought to AE where an appropriate article ban or topic ban would be applied in a transparent way after a discussion. I know discretionary sanctions allow an admin to act alone, procedurally, but that doesn't make it a good idea. And I don't think it is necessary here, in fact I have never seen this "probation" sanction used before. I also expect we are going to see additional issues from this new civility restriction. I would support reversing this sanction and issuing a formal warning, as they largely seem to serve the same purpose.Seraphim System ^(talk) 04:35, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So effectively, the user has been placed on notice that they can be article banned at an administrator's discretion in a DS area where they are already on notice due to DS - the policy about discretionary sanctions clearly states that they must be "necessary and proportionate for the smooth running of the project." - We have been discussing for two days whether a sanction with no effect was procedurally correct. Why?
I think there may be an underlying conduct issue here but am dismayed that instead of presenting the evidence at AE, editors have started personally requesting intervention from Coffee on her talk page [31]. The sanctioning admin has also made unsolicited public statements about an involved editor supporting the block and defending the sanction here: No one ever gives two shits about my emotions here, and practically no one realizes I'm capable of change. Volunteer Marek is the only person I can truly point to who gave me the opportunity to improve, and we've had a decent working relationship ever since. [32].
I am not involved in the topic area, but I don't think any of the editors in this topic area have clean hands. This is something that is taken into consideration during AE discussions. The policy says "Administrators do not need explicit consensus to enforce arbitration decisions and can always act unilaterally. However, when the case is not clear-cut they are encouraged, before acting, to seek input from their colleagues at arbitration enforcement." - I am concerned this pattern of enforcement will have a chilling effect on DS topic areas. Seraphim System ^(talk) 23:39, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: This was moved here by Coffee with this edit summary [33] you are very much involved in topic area after receiving an upheld DS block from me which has altered the structure of the discussion by moving a previously uncontested comment from two days ago [34] - I have never edited this article, I am not involved in this dispute, and I don't think that receiving a DS block from Coffee in another topic area makes be "very much involved in topic area". I have previously participated in this RfC Talk:Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections/Archive_17#RfC:_Should_the_article_include_Dan_Goodin's_criticism_of_the_DHS_Joint_Analysis_Report? which informed my comment that there is questionable conduct in this topic area all around, and that I believe the ongoing and longstanding disputes between these editors are complex/controversial enough that clear evidence should be presented via the complaint process and the determination of appropriate sanctions should be made by consensus - (in this case some admins have proposed alternate sanctions [35] [36]) - instead of by editors posting requests to Coffee's talk page. Seraphim System ^(talk) 00:33, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging

I think this sanction is just another example of Coffee's heavy-handed and erratic behavior as an administrator, and would like to see it reviewed and revoked. @TheTimesAreAChanging:I strongly suggest you strike or remove this bit. Not only is it not helpful, it's a personal attack not backed up by evidence. And no, I'm not suggesting you find evidence as that would only exacerbate other issues. Please, just strike or remove this bit (I'll remove this comment as well, if you do). Even if Coffee is the things you allege, that doesn't prove your sanction was unjust; that still needs to be judged on its own merits. For what it's worth, I found the edit you gave a diff of to be perfectly fine, as well. I'd have supported it if I'd been involved at talk. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Floquenbeam: I found the following at WP:SANCTIONS:

Probation (supervised editing): The user on probation may be banned from pages that they edit in a certain way (usually disruptively) by an uninvolved administrator. Probation is usually used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior.

I read it to mean that uninvolved admins are free to "stalk" the sanctioned editors edits to that page and issue additional sanctions without further justification (possibly beyond a diff to the edit in question, and a short explanation of what's wrong with it). I agree that it seems to be the most lenient form of sanction, as a gung-ho admin could do the same thing without violating policy to any editor, in theory. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:02, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, I found the edit you gave a diff of to be perfectly fine, as well. With respect, it's not worth anything in this venue, as there is no such thing as a retroactive consensus. The only pertinent facts are: (1) Despite TheTimesAreAChanging's repeated claim, the remedies and DS were in effect at the time of their revert, and (2) the circumstances do not approach a consensus for the edit, by any interpretation I've ever seen in my ~18 months of heavy involvement at Donald Trump. It doesn't speak well for TTAAC that they even mention a "thank" as having an iota of relevance here; the remedies quite clearly state "must obtain consensus on the talk page". There is nothing particularly complicated about these restrictions, even for someone as limited as me. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

With respect, it's not worth anything in this venue, as there is no such thing as a retroactive consensus. I'm not suggesting that the appeal should be overturned because I think the edit was fine, I'm simply telling TTAAC that I would have defended his edit, even though I took issue with a part of his appeal statement. TTAAC and I are usually at opposite ends of similar discussions, and as such, it's worth pointing out those occasions on which we are in agreement. The idea here is to foster collaboration, not to undermine it, after all. Olive branches and the occasional compliment help with that. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:21, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@SPECIFICO: I haven't said anything about the timing of the restrictions. My comment about his edit was not meant to convey anything more than the knowledge that -had I been aware of the discussion of that edit- I'd have supported including it. See my response to Mandruss, above for more on that. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:55, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn. It's another case where we shouldn't be here. It's arguably a necessary edit as a BLP required NPOV presentation. Blanking would also be arguably necessary if sourced, exculpatory statements are not presented. The fact that page wasn't under sanction the entire time is just more grist. Remove "probation" as it's just a setup for any type of future complaint. It solves nothing and only provides an excuse for a flimsy future topic-ban. If anything, convert it to a "reminder." --DHeyward (talk) 21:16, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Floquenbeam:, it's my understanding that standard DS does not include "1RR/Consensus required" language. That is a page level restriction that is made on a case by case basis. There is no DS violation until page level restrictions are placed and logged. Coffee creates special templates for each page, I believe. --DHeyward (talk) 21:24, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This was the notice in place at the time of the violation. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:34, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone can place a template. Restrictions, however must be logged here[37]. I only see Today's entry for page level sanctions. --DHeyward (talk) 21:38, 26 January 2018 (UTC) Primefac see too. --DHeyward (talk) 21:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone can place a template, true, and I once tried to do so out of ignorance. It was promptly disputed and removed because, as the template message says, "An administrator has applied the restriction above to this article." And, iin fact, that template was placed by Amortias, an admin, as the page history clearly shows. Failure to log, if any, is a wikilawyering technicality, as editors cannot be expected to go check the log before taking action. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:42, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's required to be logged. And yes, I do check the logs when I see page restrictions. Logging it is part of the notice requirements and spelled out in the DS ArbCom ruling. And yes, it's ridiculous but being brought to AE on dotted i/crossed t violations under scrupulous rules lawyering should require scrupulous adherence. It's not under page level sanctions unless logged. @Floquenbeam: --DHeyward (talk) 21:52, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Editing restrictions have to be logged, but any admin can sanction any editor editing in the American politics subject area, provided that they are aware that discretionary sanctions are in force for the area of conflict. See WP:AC/DS. You seem not to grasp that. - Mr X 🖋 21:56, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

TTAAC has not stated that they checked the log, couldn't find the log entry, and therefore ignored the template. We can safely assume that is not what happened. Thus your argument has no bearing on the issue of TTAAC's actions, and I repeat the word wikilawyering. It's the old story ending with "...and besides, I don't have a dog." ―Mandruss ☎ 22:00, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

He wasn't sanctioned for violating an editing restriction. He was sanctioned for or his repeated refusal to gain consensus before making controversial edits in the topic area. Admins are given discretion for imposing such sanctions, so this appeal lacks merit. If this were a new editor who had just wandered into a Trump article, I would recommend giving a pass for not seeing the talk page notice. That is not the case here.- Mr X 🖋 21:47, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Given that this is not a violation of the page restriction, but a general editor restriction, I am concerned that Coffee viewed TTAC's talk page comments as a probation violation and "blockable" with no diffs and nothing I see as obvious. I am very concerned that this condition will be abused. Everyone seemed to believe this was a page level violation being enforced but now it's not so there is definitely a clarity and communication issue. --DHeyward (talk) 22:11, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Floquenbeam: This is TTAC's only edit to their talk page[38] in 10 days. Blockable probation violation? --DHeyward (talk) 22:25, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@TheTimesAreAChanging: I'm astounded that you are still claiming that there was no notice in place. I have already linked to it, I know you saw the link, and you are beginning to bend my AGF. Here it is again: [39] ―Mandruss ☎ 22:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Mandruss:That's the talk page notice, the actual editnotice is here: Template:Editnotices/Page/List_of_Trump–Russia_dossier_allegations. It appears when you try to edit the page. But I agree that the argument that TTAAC was unaware of that condition is untenable. He scrolled past notification every time he edited the talk page. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:22, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@TheTimesAreAChanging: and there was not yet any discussion of the disputed content. The template says: "any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)". NOT "any edits that have been challenged (via talk page discussion)". Your edit became a challenged edit immediately upon the first revert of it. It seems to me the problem is your unwillingness to read and understand clearly stated restrictions. Editors who are not willing to do that shouldn't be editing articles under the restrictions. One mistake can be forgiven if you're new to the restrictions (are you?), but, after all this discussion you still haven't read, understood, and resolved to observe the restrictions, let alone withdrawn this appeal of a very lenient slap-on-wrist sanction. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Can I draw the admin's attention to the personal attack against Coffee that makes up the latter part of the origina filing? I quoted it at the very top of this section. I've asked TTAAC to strike or remove it, but gotten no response. Would one of you (@Floquenbeam and Primefac:) please at least make the same request for striking it, or redact it yourself? It's really unnecessary, it's inflammatory, and it's petty. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:04, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest to grant this appeal per arguments by Sandstein. This is yet another unilaterally invented and unhelpful type of editing restriction that should never be used. P.S. I am not telling that editing by this user was fine. I am only saying such "editing restriction" is meaningless and should never be used. My very best wishes (talk) 17:36, 27 January 2018 (UTC) It seems that type of "restriction" indeed exists. Why? It does not restrict anyone from doing anything. My very best wishes (talk) 03:55, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You have me totally confused. Are you talking about the restrictions or the sanction? The sanction you linked (probation) does in fact restrict someone from doing something, as it clearly states. That does not make it a "restriction" as the term is being used here; we are referring to the editing restrictions in the remedies template. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:26, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Restricts from doing what? It tells "Probation is used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior." The contributor does not receive any topic ban. I checked if "probation" was ever issued to anyone as an editing restriction during last two years and found only a couple of cases when someone issued a "probation" and an editing restriction (1RR or a topic ban). Otherwise, it does not make any sense. My very best wishes (talk) 04:36, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is a time and place to discuss things like that, and in the appeal of a sanction that follows the letter of the written rules is not it. Since that's an arb page I'm not even sure ordinary editors have much say in the matter, anyway. SS speaks below of "combing through" said rules; I call it knowing the rules better than most admins and that's something to be credited, not criticized. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:04, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

What is "indefinite probation"? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:24, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@MrX: But was that restriction in place when the edit was made? If I'm reading timestamps right, it was added afterwards? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:31, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Answering my own question, it looks like the DS was already in place on the article, based on the talk page notice, but Coffee just recently added the edit notice after TTAAC's edit. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:46, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Based on Primfac's comment, I have a 3rd question: is there any reason not to block for that edit instead? That's clearly within the topic area, and the idea that it was exempt because it was a BLP issue is not reasonable. I'm still curious about the first ~~two~~ questions, though, even if they might be moot. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:38, 26 January 2018 (UTC) Striking based on Primefac's strike... --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:50, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So to clarify after a multi-admin brainfart... DS were in place, albeit without an edit notice. While I still want to know what "indefinite probation" is, I find it hard to believe that this sanction should be undone. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:50, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@TheTimesAreAChanging: Looks like they were added on the 22nd: [40]. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:22, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@DHeyward: see diff immediately above in my reply to TTAAC. Article sanctions were apparently in place, just no edit notice. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Now I remember why I only edit WP:AE once every 3 months. The arcane rules make my head hurt. As I now understand it, the recent arbcom decision (see WP:ACN) says that page restrictions can't be enforced if there's no editnotice. However, Coffee has just pointed out above that it was a sanction under the general sanctions for this topic, for repeated addition of reverted info in this topic area. Not an article-level sanction. So the question for reviewing admins is: Is this editor probation an acceptable use of admin discretion based on the general American Politics sanctions. Everything else about timing of editnotice is a sidetrack. To answer that question, I'd say that since there are really no consequences to the sanction beyond heightened scrutiny, which was happening anyway due to previous topic ban, that the sanction is reasonable. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So... um... I find it hard to be sympathetic with the OP when they were topic-banned a fortnight ago from WP:ARBAPDS (which, for those living under a rock, is post-1932 politics), and (as I just found) had the appeal declined two days ago, so you shouldn't have been editing the page in the first place. I'm amazed you actually got away with that, so the fact that you're only on probation makes me think that Coffee was actually being lenient. Primefac (talk) 20:32, 26 January 2018 (UTC) [reply]
~~@MrX:, they already are ^ Primefac (talk) 20:36, 26 January 2018 (UTC)~~[reply]
I'm an idiot who can't read a timestamp (I think I need some sleep as well); the tban was last year. Still, you would think that someone who has been tbanned for this nonsense before would know about how to not get flagged for it again. I stick with my previous statement that I feel Coffee was being lenient with just "probation". Primefac (talk) 20:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@DHeyward:, you're kidding, right? Take a look at the page right before Coffee changed the notice - third notice, second bullet: Limit of one revert in 24 hours: This article is under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period). so... 1RR definitely holds. Additionally, there two arbs who edited the sanction template, which means that by SILENCE or other policy they approved of the language. Primefac (talk) 21:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To echo Floq's post above, I agree that the sanction is reasonable; if the OP stays within the bounds of ARBAPDS (because you cannot make the argument that they don't know about it, or that they won't look for DS's in the future) then there is no issue. Primefac (talk) 21:53, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@TheTimesAreAChanging:, I'm going to echo the above request to remove the personal attack/aspersions cast at Coffee re: his admin action history in the last sentence of your original post; not only is it inflammatory but we are not here to discuss their overall conduct as an administrator. Primefac (talk) 23:36, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Decline the appeal. The sanction is clearly within discretion and, if anything, the gentlest sanction the admin could come up with. The only change I would argue for is for TTAAC to be banned from that page outright, because probation is obscure and not widely understood. GoldenRing (talk) 23:17, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would grant the appeal simply because the sanction does not define or link to what "probation" even is. I don't know what it is either. It's not possible to follow an undefined restriction. This would be without prejudice to imposing a defined restriction. Sandstein 09:22, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so probation is apparently "supervised editing". This is pointless in a discretionary sanctions topic area, where everybody is already on probation, so to speak. A sanction that does nothing is a waste of time for everybody. I'd grant the appeal and lift the sanction for this reason. Sandstein 09:07, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also confused on what "probation" is. An uninvolved administrator can already sanction editors under DS, provided they've been made aware, and can do so immediately upon noticing a violation. So does the "probation" remedy actually do anything at all? It seems to me like an anachronism. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:15, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with a sanction of some sort being applied here, but add me to the list of admins confused about what "probation" means in this context. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 08:22, 28 January 2018 (UTC).[reply]
- @Coffee: Thanks. On that basis I'm inclined to decline the appeal, but it would be good to have a wider discussion about the practice of "probation", which while obviously allowed is quite unorthodox in my experience. Given the seemingly intractable problems in this area, maybe unorthodox is what we need. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 00:55, 30 January 2018 (UTC).[reply]
What Sandstein said. ~Awilley (talk) 16:30, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Decline appeal, I don't think it changes much, but it was within discretion. Courcelles (talk) 17:00, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can tell, the only effect of "probation" in a DS area is that it counts as an active sanction for awareness purposes, so is effectively a permanent alert until lifted (see WP:AC/DS#aware.aware point 2). It's more useful when imposed outside DS (whether by an arbcom remedy, or by a community discussion), which is presumably the reason for its existence on WP:EDR. If we want to put TTAAC under a "discuss before potentially controversial edit" and/or 1RR restriction, we should just do that. T. Canens (talk) 00:19, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Signedzzz

Appeal granted. The lifting of sanction does not imply that no wrong doing took place, it is being lifted because actions that took place were less than perfect but still did not rise to the level that sanctions of any kind were needed. A number of admin agree on this singular point.

To clear up some misconceptions: Using the obscure sanction of "probation" seems to have muddied the water up and has spawned a side discussion on the appropriateness of that sanction for DS related area. Probation is a bit of an odd sanction, ill defined (or not defined at all), although clearly allowed by Arb authorization. As "civility" is a part of this sanction, and is yet to be defined, this only makes the sanction more confusing. There is a consensus that probation has no utility in areas that are already under discretionary sanctions, even while being allowed. This is a valid concern and worthy of consideration, perhaps at WP:ARCA rather than here, but the validity of the uncommon sanction of "probation" is not the issue at hand, as it is clearly allowed but subject to review at WP:AE like any other sanction.

I believe that Coffee acted in good faith and within policy, but a consensus of administrators disagree with his conclusions that sanction was necessary. It is a borderline case, so rather than invalidating the sanction, I am lifting it, effective immediately.

Signedzzz is reminded that their behavior is not excused by the granting of this appeal, and that all DS covered articles authorize admin to block, topic ban or use any other sanction that is authorized, without a larger discussion. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:14, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Signedzzz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – zzz (talk) 07:54, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: [41]

Talk:Donald_Trump#Adding_criticized_as_racist_to_lead

Administrator imposing the sanction: Coffee (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: [42]

Statement by Signedzzz

"sanctioned for casting of aspersions and overall displays rudeness and disrespectful behavior" No aspersions. Any "rudeness and disrespectful behavior at Talk:Donald Trump" pales into complete insignificance compared to the rudeness and direspect shown by this user who out of the blue tells me I'm "sanctioned" and he will henceforth allow me to edit under his supervision for "6 months of probation (supervised editing)".

Statement by Coffee

The probation restriction is explained in detail at WP:EDR, which is the list of restrictions I'm permitted to use (along with blocks) per my discretion in the topic area, as per WP:ARBAPDS. This sanction is merely more of a severe warning, with one additional caveat: it states that regardless if they edit an article with a direct editnotice on it, with the civility restriction required, they are not allowed to violated our civility policy in any area of the AP2 topic area. This is simply a way to attempt to prevent disruption, without levying an actual topic ban or a full civility restriction on the user in all topic areas. The full explination of this is found at our policy: WP:PROBATION: The user on probation may be banned from pages that they edit in a certain way (usually disruptively) by an uninvolved administrator. Probation is usually used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior. I'm not going to disparage any of the admins reviewing this, but I am disappointed by the fact that it seems I'm the only one reading our editing restrictions policy. Regardless, I think this is a smart sanction and will prevent edits like alluding to editor obtuseness, claiming editors are trying to push a biased (in their words "Fox News line") image of the article, without evidence, and accusing an editor's completely fine to have opinion as "fringe", twice. That's all in the course of one day on that talk page. While they didn't go so far as to make a personal attack (wherein I would have levied a block or topic-ban), they did go so far as to begin a tone of discussion where consensus would inevitably be hard to find, as egos and tempers easily start to flare with such aspersions, enough to where a rather respected administrator even noticed the glaring issue. As such, I believe this is an appropriate sanction. And indeed, a light one. It means nothing more than they are on very, very thin ice when it comes to civility now (in dealing with any post-1932 AP2 article) and that they've been given a chance to change their ways instead of simply being blocked. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 12:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Lankiveil: See above, for explanation and relevant diffs. (forgot to ping you) — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 12:19, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Dennis Brown: I think you likely began editing your comment before reading this (based on sig time)... so pinging you so you know I've made a comment here already. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 12:26, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Dennis Brown, Sandstein, and Lankiveil: Here is just one of many times such an editing restriction has been used to enforce ArbCom cases: Eric Corbett prohibited. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 12:30, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Seraphim System: No. They would only be blocked for violating WP:UNCIVIL, specifically in the AP2 topic area only. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 12:33, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein: As a friendly reminder, your comment here and in the above appeal are both falling into rather questionable territory when it comes to the Arbitration Committee's expectations of administrators in dealing in AE: "Administrators wishing to dismiss an enforcement request should act cautiously and be especially mindful that their actions do not give the impression that they are second-guessing the Arbitration Committee or obstructing the enforcement of their decisions."

@Dennis Brown: I'm all for us opening an RFC on the probation restriction's existence. But, until that happens I don't see a policy backed reason to decline this appeal. At this point the restriction is permitted to be used by administrators, and similar restrictions as yourself stated have been used without successful appeal in the past. Based on precedence alone then, this appeal also holds no merit. But, like I said, if an RFC or ARCA can change or remove the existence of this sanction from the allotted options DS/AE admins have at their disposal, I will be more than willing to follow that new policy/motion. Per WP:AC/P#Dismissing an enforcement request: When no actual violation occurred, or the consensus of uninvolved administrators is that exceptional circumstances are present, which would make the imposition of a sanction inappropriate, administrators may also close a report with no action; if appropriate, they may also warn or advise the editor being reported, in order to avoid further breaches. I do not think that applies here, per my reading of WP:AC/DS or any other relevant policies. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 12:56, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Seraphim System: If the uninvolved administrators below inform me that the restriction should be changed to specifically state a block would be the result, I will gladly do so. My reply above to you was a bit informal: I was still considering a potential ban from, let's say, Donald Trump or making comments about other users, etc... but a block is just the easiest response for me to point to (as it is usually the most common occurrence after any sanction violation). But, yes, if found necessary I will change that happily. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 13:08, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Dennis Brown and Sandstein: It is not our job to speculate on or change the policies that ArbCom created just because we don't understand them. If this appeal is overturned I'm taking this directly to an ArbCom case against administrators who "are second-guessing the Arbitration Committee or obstructing the enforcement of their decisions" against the stated Arbitration Committee's expectations of administrators. This isn't personal, it's just that you both need to realize you have no authority to second-guess ArbCom. You do have the authority to see if my sanction was within discretion (it was), and whether the ArbCom policy exists to back up the sanction (it does). If you "grant" an appeal that literally goes against ArbCom rulings (purely out of personal reasons), then I'm afraid you are obstructing the ArbCom's written intent and policy. I realize you're just trying to look out for some sanity in these processes (hell everyone has since they were created) but I have to stand firm on this. No administrator is allowed to repeal an Arbitration Committee ruling. If we want to hold an RFC on this matter, specifically at ARCA or like manner, then by all means do so. But, as of right now I'm literally enforcing something that is linked to in the {{ds/alert}} template: This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. (emphasis mine) And directly in the link provided under "Types of restrictions" is this: Probation (supervised editing) - The user on probation may be banned from pages that they edit in a certain way (usually disruptively) by an uninvolved administrator. Probation is usually used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior. - To in any way not enforce this, or to in any way grant an appeal here, is to claim that we know better than the Arbitration Committee, or that we somehow have authority over the Committee's rulings. This is a very dangerous road to walk down my friends, as that is most certainly not what WP:AE was created for, especially considering the name here is "enforcement" not "clarification" or "review board". I urge you again to reconsider, based on this overwhelming supply of evidence and policy. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:31, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Dennis Brown: My intention there was not for you to think I would even name you in the case (unless you closed this of course), which is why I simply said "administrators" not "Dennis Brown and Sandstein". Just to clear that up.

I do understand your right to opine differently about certain policies/procedures, but I'm also reminding whomever closes this appeal that doing it because of questions about ArbCom decision's validity or likewise would be entirely out-of-process, and likely actionable by ArbCom themselves. This reminder is not intended as a threat (god how I wish I was talking to you in person... so you could hear my intent)... I'm literally just trying to nail into y'all's heads that AE isn't ANI.

— Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:57, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Winged Blades of Godric: Would you rather I placed a topic-ban on talking about other user's intentions instead, or perhaps a block? I'm interested to here your solutions to these problems. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:51, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To closing administrator: If this appeal is granted (against ArbCom policy I'll reiterate)... can y'all at least state for the record that I was following a procedure which is linked to inside of {{ds/alert}} as an option for administrators? To commenting administrators: Can we all go to ARCA on this case after this since everyone who just showed up (and some who are rarely are even/around in this noticeboard) appears to be stating probation is an impossible thing to understand or implement. To me that means the only way to fix this is to have the Arbs clarify/or remove probation from the list at WP:EDR it at this point. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 20:34, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Signedzzz

These are some of the most recent diffs I could find, but I am not sure if these are the diffs that formed the basis for Coffee's decision to sanction here:

[43] "Racism is surely the most significant in terms of repercussions and connecting with voters, not just a "controversy" like the other examples."
[44] "This article can continue to follow the Fox News line, or it can follow reliable sources, which will tell you that Trump's racist statements are "an important aspect", as you are well aware. And no sources contradict that, as you are equally well aware."
[45] "Countless reliable sources report that Trump's racist statements are indeed "an important enough aspect", so (unsourced) WP:fringe theories like that expressed above by User:Emir of Wikipedia can be ignored, in line with policy."
[46] "I have yet to see any sources backing up your fringe theory that Trump's racist statements are "not an important enough aspect".
[47] "The past year of research has made it very clear: Trump won because of racial resentment. Another study produces the same findings we’ve seen over and over again.]"
[48] "Yeah, they are a reliable source, though. That's what articles are based on. You don't have any backing up your opinion."

Seraphim System ^(talk) 08:24, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Same sanction as TTAAC above. --DHeyward (talk) 08:58, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really understand what the new "civility restriction" is - I think this has been floated before, but I thought WP:NPA was enough? I have seen editors sanctioned for it here before, but these cases have been more difficult and controversial than a simple 1RR or consensus required violation. What does the page restriction add that is not already covered by existing policies and procedures? Our policies say a lot of things: Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Procedures#Expectations_of_administrators, Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Page_restrictions, Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Sanctions
I am having difficult understanding why multiple appeals about novel issues are currently open at AE that have never been discussed at AE or anywhere else. This makes it difficult to discuss an appeal, especially if the sanctioning admin is not available to respond to requests for diffs post-sanction. Seraphim System ^(talk) 11:38, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So, if I understand Coffee's explanation correctly, and I am not sure that I do - this was not an WP:NPA but since the user has been put on probation, for a second occurrence that similarly is not an WP:NPA a full topic ban would be applied under the new restriction? Seraphim System ^(talk) 12:30, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Coffee: Thank you for clarifying that. In the sanction notice you left for Signedzzz you wrote If you do not adhere to the standards of WP:CIVILITY as is required on many controversial articles, this sanction will be escalated to either a topic-ban or block. [49] - the language of probation also directly references topic bans or article bans so I was confused by this. Would you be willing to revise the current probation sanction you placed to limit it to a block, as you confirmed above? I will leave it to admins to consider whether there was an enforcement request etc. Seraphim System ^(talk) 13:04, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment--
- We aren't kids studying in the 2nd standard and neither is ArbCom the equivalent of the class-monitor.What matters is the worthiness or functional benefit of the imposed sanction and that could be defended without clumsy attempts at unnecessary process-wonkery and threats to run off to the Arbs.
- Echo Sandstein and DB in their entirety as to Probation.Winged Blades^Godric 15:42, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I fail to see an diff that supports anything that ought to be rather than, can be DS sanctionable.So, I will prefer to let off with a warning to avoid these, failing which sanctions may be imposed at any time by any uninvolved sysop at their discretion.Winged Blades^Godric 16:16, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on "Probation" - I can think hypothetically of a situation where an administrator may prefer probation to an outright topic ban, but this isn't one of them. I don't think it was ever intended to justify a future topic ban or block for something that was not sanctionable in the first place (like the comments at issue here). Additionally, I am afraid to edit in Arbitration areas as long as this is ongoing, including discussing on talk pages where significant discussion has recently been redacted as a violation of the civility requirement [50] [51] and final warnings have been given for "inappropriate discussion on talk pages" [52]. I think ARCA may shed some light on this arcane sanction.Seraphim System ^(talk) 23:46, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by Signedzzz

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I'm not too keen on wading through that talk page. @Coffee: can you point us to some diffs of this user's objectionable conduct? Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 08:20, 28 January 2018 (UTC).[reply]
As above, I'd grant the appeal because "probation" is a sanction that does nothing in a DS topic area, where everybody is already on probation. Sandstein 09:08, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Grant appeal - I had never heard of probation until it was suggested in a case a few notches up the page, and then I noticed it has only been used a half dozen times. Might be best to RFC it off the books because it accomplishes nothing that DS itself doesn't already accomplish. The other problem I have is a "civility" restriction, which is entirely too easy for any admin or editor to game. There is so much systemic bias in the system, no one can define "civility" in a universal way, so there is no way to objectively enforce it under most circumstances short of a WP:NPA or long term abuse, both of which don't need a special sanction to enforce. I'm not saying that a sanction wasn't warranted because I don't have examples from the sanctioning admin in front of me. The examples given by Seraphim System don't seem that egregious, people are going to bump heads a little and I don't think we can police that away. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:22, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- It isn't about you doing anything "wrong" Coffee, it is about the unenforcability of the sanction itself. As Sandstein points out, everyone is already kind of on probation with any DS topic, particularly when they are notified and a sanction can be issued without any further warning. The Eric Corbett case (which I am very familiar with) is a perfect example of why formal civility restrictions do not work, and are prone to interpretation thus unequal enforcement. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:17, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Coffee, you are of course welcome to file it at Arb and I wouldn't take it personal. In this situation, we have to decide if the sanction fits the situation, and it seem that Sandstein and I agree it does not, although for atypical reasons. Opining in this section isn't an admin action, closing and implementing an action is (see previous Arb cases) but I have no issue being named in an Arb case as I'm quite confident I haven't violated any policy. Just because Arb authorizes a sanction, that doesn't require us to use that sanction, nor does it require us to accept that sanction on appeal if we feel it is inappropriate for a given situation. I fully accept that you do, and I'm not questioning your faith in this, but in this particular case, my judgement is that it is not an effective and/or fair solution. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:48, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I got that Coffee. I already saw how others might misinterpret it but I know you well enough to understand you are talking about procedure, not personalities. If it goes to Arb, I fully expect to participate, which isn't something I do often nor enjoy. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:21, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Grant appeal per Dennis Brown. I'm not crazy about the assumptions about others' motives in the diffs provided, but I don't see them as rising to the level of incivility that needs to be officially sanctioned. Also add me to the list of people who doesn't understand what "probation" is supposed to achieve. It feels like it's just a scary and annoying way of saying "I'm watching you." (Note about involvement: I think I remember being in a content dispute with zzz last year. I don't feel that is influencing my opinions here.) ~Awilley (talk) 16:28, 28 January 2018 (UTC) Further note: It looks like these new civility restrictions are now being applied to at least 75 different articles per [53] (Ctrl+F civility) ~Awilley (talk) 16:37, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Following up on what the "probation" restriction means (at WP:EDR), I can definitely see how a "probation" restriction would make sense in the context of an arbitration decision or ANI discussion. If a user has shown disruptive behavior but also signs of reform, you give them a second chance with the "probation" that allows for a single administrator to place a topic ban later on if the disruptive behavior returns, and without having to go back through ANI or arbcom. But that kind of provision isn't necessary (IMO) under discretionary sanctions where any administrator can do whatever they want anyway. ~Awilley (talk) 23:31, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Grant appeal. I can't see anything in the diffs that should attract a sanction, and it isn't clear what probation would be in this context. SarahSV ^(talk) 16:50, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Decline The diffs presented do not rise to the level of meriting a ban or a block but they are not exemplars of collegial consensus-building, either, and probation is a very mild sanction that is proportionate to the situation. Probation is a valid form of sanction authorised by policy. GoldenRing (talk) 08:59, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Grant appeal Admins are saying that a probation sanction is not needed in a DS topic area. That leaves blocks and topic bans as the available effective sanctions and I see little in the above diffs that would merit one of those. Editors are allowed to point out they disagree with other editors' positions and statements and why. They are allowed to say why they feel another editor's !vote should be dismissed, especially if they cite a policy or guideline backing up their position. So the appeal should be granted as the sanction seems to be not necessary in DS areas and also because it was unmerited. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:55, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Doc9871

Both Doc9871 and Ihardlythinkso are indefinitely blocked. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 18:02, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Doc9871

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: MrX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 13:41, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Doc9871 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBAPDS
WP:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive205#Doc9871 Doc9871 is indefinitely banned from any edit about, and any page related to, post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

January 29, 2018 "How about the resident White House physician, appointed in 2006, treated with utter incredulity that Trump is not just simply a blithering idiot teetering on the very edge of insanity."
January 29, 2018 "SHS is such a badass!!! Love her!!! Snowflakes don't even dare really to watch her. They are way too wimpy, really. Idiots like Cher tell her not to dress like a "sister-wife". ...Cher. Who the fuck wants her in office?!"
January 29, 2018 "I've never met a liberal who is tolerant of non-liberal ideology. It's black and white there. Literally."
January 29, 2018 "But... Trump is probably the most racist person in the very history of all of humanity. How can you reconcile your preposterous claim vs. "the rest of the world"?"
January 29, 2018 Warning by me
January 29, 2018 Warning by Bishonen (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
January 30, 2018 "FDR? I think he was a pretty good president.Oops! Damn! I just violated my topic ban by commenting on post-1932 American Politics. Fuck me."
January 30, 2018 "The Civil Rights Act of 1964? I think it was a very important, benchmark decision that was long overdue. Oh, dang! We got a Topic Ban violation over here!"
January 30, 2018 "'m thinking of perusing the "handful of Web sites which exist to promote and reinforce such viewpoints" that MastCell says are out there. Now, as a stereotypically toothless, inbred, cross-burning Trump supporter, I may need some help negotiatin' da intranets. Lil' help?"
January 30, 2018 "Don't put me in the basket, Man! Don't put me in the basket!" A funny guy I know would actually say this to this liberal freakshow who would mentally dismiss and put people in "the basket of deplorables" when discussing politics. Who even comes up with such a stupid concept? The one who lost? Yes!!!!"
January 30, 2018 "I wish Dianne Feinstein would get the "unfit" label as well. 84 years fuckin' old. Corrupt as hell, wanting re-election. Career Dems are the worst."
January 30, 2018 "Hi yourself! Yes, "probably seven years of his presidency" is on track with the current state of general hysteria. 90% of mainstream media coverage of Trump is negative. Unheard of. Cheers!"

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

December 12, 2016 Indef topic ban from post-1932 American politics
August 1, 2016 One month topic ban from Donald Trump.
June 9, 2016 ARBAPDS block

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on December 12, 2016 by MastCell (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Ihardlythinkso (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has also violated his topic ban immediately after coming off a block for violating his topic ban. See his talk page and contributions. If it's not obvious, go ahead and ignore it. I can't waste any more time digging for diffs on these two.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[54]

Discussion concerning Doc9871

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Doc9871

Statement by OID

See also my talk page here. Doc despite having a retired tag on their userpage was editing while logged out (prior to their block) in violation of their topic ban. You couldn't claim they were avoiding scrutiny since they were openly admitting their primary account, but its clear they have no intention of abiding by their topic ban when they have a soapbox to climb up on and be disruptive. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:01, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by GoodDay

Recommend that IHTS & Doc's blocks remain at 2 weeks & not extended to 3 months each, as has been suggested. A block in progress, shouldn't be extended, IMHO. Oh btw, I briefly commented at IHTS's talkpage, in his discussion with Doc, but then reverted my comment. Wasn't aware until now, that they were under topic-bans & so didn't want them to respond to my comment there, only to get themselves into more trouble. GoodDay (talk) 15:53, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As a member of WP:RETENTION, it saddens me to see that we've lost 2 editors, today. However, it must always be remembered, ours is a community of privileges not rights. When you use up those privileges? the result is inevitable. GoodDay (talk) 17:58, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Doc9871

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I've blocked Doc9871 for two weeks for coming back from a year's break solely to violate their topic ban (or so it seems from their contribs). If anyone feels this needs to be upped, it's fine by me. GoldenRing (talk) 13:51, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- And likewise Ihardlythinkso. GoldenRing (talk) 13:58, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would concur with GoldenRing here, both in his conclusion and the duration of the blocks. I hate to see it from these two, but Mastcell clearly and politely warned them and offered guidance just before they both violated the terms of the tbans, and in the very same thread. I can't see any possible justification for comments that followed, other than to push the limits of their respective tbans. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:08, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Looking closer, I would not be opposed to extending the blocks for both of them. Not only because of the fact that they violated the topic ban, but because of the way they did it. As Courcelles has already issued a CU/sock block for Doc, that one is a bit moot. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:32, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with the blocks. Two weeks is pretty lenient for those edits. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:32, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @NeilN: I thought seriously about just indeffing both of them and I'm still open to the idea - but didn't quite feel ready to do it off my own bat. What would you have considered a reasonable block here? GoldenRing (talk) 15:19, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - @GoldenRing: Three months each. They knew they were breaking their topic bans, were warned they were breaking their topic bans, and still continued to break their topic bans with completely inappropriate posts. Also would add a warning that the next violation will result in an indefinite block (first year under AE). --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:29, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - I'll see what others say here, but may well take your advice. If anyone wants to up the length themselves, take my consent as read. GoldenRing (talk) 15:41, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'd have indeffed both of them for this. Courcelles (talk) 16:10, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- And I've done this for Doc9871 after CU proves they have been violating their sanctions while logged out. Courcelles (talk) 17:15, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In spite of the fact that GoldenRing's suggestion is the most lenient here, IHTS has decide to copy/paste all of the opposes at GR's RFA to their talk page in lieu of an unblock request. I've removed it, and will remove talk page access if it is restored. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:36, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think anyone notified IHTS of this thread. While I don't think that affects the block for a clear-cut topic ban violation, it's reasonable to allow them to make a statement here in their defense regarding an increase in duration, if they choose. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:41, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - I guess we've reached the end of the line. They restored a link to the portion I removed, and when this is combined with their previous battleground approach, and this intentional topic ban violation, and considering the comments of other admins here, I've reblocked indef with no talk page access. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:49, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Someone needs to close and log the sanctions, perhaps one of the sanctioning admin, but for the record, I support all actions taken, after reviewing the available evidence. This appears to be "suicide by admin". Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:57, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Violations of WP:BLPDS and WP:ARBAPDS requiring immediate intervention

EEng

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning EEng

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Coffee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 05:28, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: EEng (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBAPDS WP:BLPDS:

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

diff 1, diff 2, diff 3, diff 4, diff 5, diff 6, diff 7 - these are some of the most egregious violations I've seen... at one point even saying they wanted to see tweets and tabloid coverage
diff 8 deliberate violation of this restriction and this page restriction

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

07:21, 12 June 2015 The ed17 (talk | contribs | block) blocked EEng (talk | contribs) with an expiration time of 31 hours (account creation blocked) (Disruptive editing and personal attacks on WT:DYK) This isn't their first rodeo at disruptive behavior at DYK

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

User is clearly aware: [55]

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

There are other users involved here, but this user has given the inch I gave them and took it a mile. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 05:28, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I implore the admins who review this to look into almost everyone involved in these discussions I've linked to above. I do not have the time nor energy to do it all myself. But, this type of behavior is simply not allowed in the topic area and every single person who participated in the "shenanigans" knew it. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 05:54, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@NeilN: Please do explain how an administrator who ticked an already ticked hook just to say DS was okay with it... is involved? I would have 2xticked any hook that wasn't in violation of the sanctions. You're also going to need to explain how you consider yourself uninvolved here after our recent conflicts? Answer per WP:ADMINACCT, thank you. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 06:14, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@NeilN: So your answer to how you aren't involved is to say that you've only interacted with me here? I'm talking about the specific conflicts on my talk page and elsewhere regarding non AE matters even, or are you denying that I can find diffs that show this? I'm truly interested to here an answer to this one. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 06:39, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Winged Blades of Godric: I did not supervote in any form or fashion. I did tick a hook, after it was already ticked, because I felt it was necessary for Mr Ernie to understand AE would be okay with a hook like Alt1... I will specify here as I have several places... Alt1,3,4,5 are all perfectly fine. I do not care which of those are chosen as they are all within policy, but this all started because I had to notify Ceranthor that he had ticked a hook the WP:ARBAP2/WP:BLPDS rulings would not find acceptable and that the WMF would frown upon. The Executive Director of the Foundation is being notified of all of this on Saturday. So I'd like to hope that we would take this a bit more seriously when we're talking about libelous/defamatory jokes making it to our Main Page. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 06:30, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Cullen328: Andrew Davidson (talk · contribs) is discussing it with her, not me. If you think the WMF has no authority here, you are very, very mistaken. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 06:55, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

notified

Discussion concerning EEng

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by EEng

Statement by WBG

Why is EEng particularly deserving such special attention/treatment?! In particular, given the conversation over the entire thread, I don't think that any sanctions are merited.~ Winged Blades^Godric 05:50, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- And, while sanctions and loggings are discretionary, Coffee, ~~you do really seem to have super-voted over there~~, as I have often said, I can shall never equate to I shall.~ Winged Blades^Godric 05:54, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, as Cullen said, I dont care an iota about what Katherine thinks unless there's any OFFICE-ACTION, which is almost never going to happen over this case.And, AD....Sigh...

But, I willl agree with Masem that all the parties (incl. you) ought to have behaved more properly.BLP is

Statement by Cullen328

Coffee needs to develop the ability to distinguish between jokes and actually disruptive edits. EEng should be cautious about joking in highly contentious topic areas. I do not see any sanctionable conduct by EEng. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:52, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Coffee, your claim that you will discuss all of this with Katherine Maher on Saturday may be the weakest Argument from authority that I have read in a long time. As you should know, the WMF does not intervene in such matters except in the most egregious cases. Some behind-the-scenes joking is way below that threshold. Please reconsider your aggressive stance. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:50, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mendaliv

No action required: There is a point where we go from ensuring reasonable dialogue remains alive and unmarred by political extremism on Wikipedia, and venture into truly "no fun allowed" land. EEng's sense of humor is well known, highly appreciated, and extraordinarily valuable. And yes, my friends, American politics is a place where we are allowed to have fun. The whole purpose of this project is volunteers making an encyclopedia because they enjoy doing it.

The only action appropriate is to deny the DYK hook as "not a good idea", and that is frankly probably outside the jurisdiction of AE. But EEng's effort here is actually quite valuable insofar as it ensures the discussion of whether the extreme protections of AP2 are fully necessary. No, we must ask these questions and keep asking these questions. Where we disagree and dissent with editorial and policy decisions, we must be able to do so without being dragged to this newest drama board.

The purpose of AP2—indeed, every DS—is to terminate actual disruption and to prevent further actual disruption. Not to preempt disruption, nor even to prevent editorial arguments, and certainly not to silence dissent. I believe Coffee is acting in good faith, but that he should reassess the fundamental reasons for these protective regimes. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 06:04, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by David Eppstein

I wrote something like this on my talk page earlier this evening when Coffee showed up there to remind me of this AE case, but I'll repeat it here: Cutting short talk-page discussions that are about whether something is in policy by unilaterally declaring that it is not, because you say so and that anyone who disagrees will get blocked (i.e. what Coffee has been doing) does not meet my definition of appropriate behavior by an administrator, nor is it what the sort of action requested here should be used for. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:19, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Seraphim System

These are not BLP violations. Donald Trump is a public figure. Regarding the addition to the main page, the editors wisely came up with the Alt 6 option where the image is sufficient to avoid any BLP implications. They exercised extreme caution and good judgment in taking this precaution.Seraphim System ^(talk) 06:38, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Galobtter

I don't see any reason to shut down the discussion at Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Trump_Street or elsewhere (discussion about whether something violates a policy or not, is not something that needs to be stopped), nor is wanting to see tweets about it bad. Galobtter (pingó mió) 06:58, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Legacypac

Trump is a public figure so BLP applies differently. EEng is well known for his good humour. No action is necessary here and Coffee should be more careful since they wear an Admin hat. Legacypac (talk) 07:04, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (User)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning EEng

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Decline to levy any sanctions against EEng. I consider Coffee to be WP:INVOLVED in this matter and they overstepped placing this restriction, forcing their views upon a content discussion. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 06:01, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Coffee 1) "There is to be no more discussion or jokes made about the AP2 topic area." This is not a "reasonable measure" by any means but you shutting down discussion and casting a supervote on content matters. 2) This is the arbcom enforcement request and appeal board. Admins are supposed to formulate their own views on a request or appeal and not just parrot the views of other admins. Just because I've disagreed with other admins from time to time here does not make me involved with those admins (and vice versa). --NeilN ^{talk to me} 06:34, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Coffee We've disagreed on other administrative matters. I don't think we've had any content disputes. And I think it would set a dangerous precedent if only admins who always agreed in all matters with the admin requesting enforcement or whose sanction was being appealed were considered uninvolved. If that was the case, we might as well look to renaming this the "rubber stamp" board. However, if an uninvolved admin familiar with this board disagrees, they may move my posts up to a separate section. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 06:50, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It seems rather obviously from the Gabriel case last year that experienced editors should not be making well-intended jokes that appear in predominate pages (like the main page) about BLP. I'm not 100% sure if all of Coffee's actions are legit, but I cannot excuse those that were justifying BLP violations to be shown on the main page fully aware of the previous case. --Masem (t) 06:52, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

@@ Line 541: / Line 541: @@
 ====Statement by Galobtter====
 I don't see any reason to shut down the discussion at [[Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Trump_Street]] or elsewhere (discussion about whether something violates a policy or not, is not something that needs to be stopped), nor is wanting to see tweets about it bad. [[User:Galobtter|Galobtter]] ([[User talk:Galobtter|pingó mió]]) 06:58, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
+====Statement by Legacypac====
+Trump is a public figure so BLP applies differently. EEng is well known for his good humour. No action is necessary here and Coffee should be more careful since they wear an Admin hat. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 07:04, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
+====Statement by (User)====
 ====Statement by (username)====

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