Template:Did you know nominations/St John the Evangelist's Church, Kirkham

St John the Evangelist's Church, Kirkham

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• ... that the peal of bells in St John the Evangelist's Church, Kirkham, (pictured) is said to have been the first to be rung in a Catholic church since the Reformation?

• Reviewed: Thomas Elfe

Created by Peter I. Vardy (talk). Self nominated at 14:49, 2 June 2014 (UTC).

• New enough, long enough, QPQ done. Well-cited, including the good hook. Checking the sources available online shows no close paraphrasing or copvios. NPOV. Image suitably licensed for front page. Good to go. Edwardx (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

• This was pulled from the main page after less than an hour due to the unlikelihood that no Catholic church anywhere has rung a peal of bells in hundreds of years. New hook needed, and then it can be reviewed. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:56, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• :Surely just adding the two words "in England", at the appropriate place, would solve this (if the source(s) allow)? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:35, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• My apologies, and thanks to Martin. Of course you are right. Would this be OK?
• ALT1 ... that the peal of bells in St John the Evangelist's Church, Kirkham, (pictured) is said to have been the first to be rung in a Catholic church in England since the Reformation?
• --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 08:34, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

• I suspect that the original "first to be rung" idea is likely to have come from a 19th century news article written at the time of consecration of the church, or at the installation of the bells - often a ceremonial occasion in which the bells arrived from the railway station on several decorated carts pulled by beribboned horses. The bells would be ceremoniously consecrated, then there would be a beanfeast afterwards with long speeches by the mildly inebriated bishop, various local clergy and rich benefactors, and exaggerated claims would be enjoyed, often to much laughter - and the reporter happily wrote it all down, between glugs of wine. If you could find the ultimate source for this claim, then fair enough. If you can't - then surely Pugin is the real hook? A Pugin church is a national treasure - if it wasn't, it wouldn't be listed.--Storye book (talk) 10:11, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
• ALT2 ... that Augustus Pugin, architect of Big Ben, also designed St John the Evangelist's Church, Kirkham (pictured) and its interior decoration? --Storye book (talk) 10:11, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

• Quite agree this is better and certainly has more significance to the encyclopedia as a whole. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:45, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
• Strictly speaking, Big Ben is just the bell in the Elizabeth Tower, see Big_Ben#Nickname. Perhaps "Big Ben" in ALT2 might be more accurate. Edwardx (talk) 11:57, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
• ALT3 ... that Augustus Pugin, architect of the Big Ben clock tower, also designed St John the Evangelist's Church, Kirkham (pictured) and its interior decoration?--Storye book (talk) 13:32, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

• Refs for ALT3 are citation 6 in this nom article for design of St John's church, and Rosemary Hill, God's Architect: Pugin & the Building of Romantic Britain (2007) p. 482 (citation #10 in Big Ben) for design of Big Ben.--Storye book (talk) 11:38, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
• Reviewer needed for ALT3.--Storye book (talk) 11:27, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. A pity that the original hook is not acceptable. It is taken from a website that is the official collaboration between the Catholic Church and English Heritage and, as such, I took it to be reliable and authoritative. There are questions about the comments above and ALT3. We can assume that Pugin designed the interior decoration, but the sources do not specifically say that, and it may be better to leave it out. He did design some of the fittings, but they have been moved and/or altered. As for it being a "national treasure", I'm not so sure. Regarding this particular church, Pevsner said "It is a modest building and, like so much of Pugin's, really very impersonal. He was unquestionably greater as a publicist than as an architect, although he could rise to occasions". And if it were really a "national treasure", surely it would have been graded at I or at least at II*. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 15:39, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Yes, it is a pity. Could we mention the 110 ft spire? Although it's shorter than St Michaels' 150 ft, it is still quite a landmark across the town. It was also significant in the locality as being the first Catholic church built - St Joseph's Wesham, Holy Family Freckleton and St Anne's Westby (built by Pugin's son) all came later. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:52, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

• If you want a different ALT, then of course that is fine. But as for Pugin, Pevsner is the last person to be considered an authority on 19th century Gothic Revival style. He hated it, and did not understand it, and favoured C18 neo-classical and older works. He was overridden as critic of Gothic Revival in the mid-C20 by other critics who loved that style, encouraged by John Betjemen. As for the original hook, I have no doubt that somebody did say that about the bells, but I think we need a citation which tells us who said it and in what context, because at the moment it's too vague.--Storye book (talk) 16:40, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
• ALT4: ... that Augustus Pugin, architect of the Big Ben clock tower, also designed St John the Evangelist's Church, Kirkham (pictured)? --Storye book (talk) 16:40, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

• But the article doesn't say that Pugin designed the Big Ben tower, so that fact cannot be confirmed in the article's references. This has run into a bog where personal knowledge conflicts with sources whose reliability is not really questionable. I think it is time to withdraw this nomination. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 21:09, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

• Fair enough, but there's a slight chance we can get out of the bog. It would be a pity for this lovely church to lose this DYK nom, so I'm currently researching to see whether a better source can be found for the bit about the bells. I would be very grateful if you could kindly bear with me while I upload what I find. If you would like to monitor this, I'm uploading to Commonscat St John's Kirkham - as I write this I've just uploaded a news article on the consecration and a picture from the same source. At the moment I don't intend to edit the WP article unless you would like me to, and it's up to you whether you want to use this new material as citation(s). There is mention of the bells in the news article, but nothing yet to support the original hook. Still looking.--Storye book (talk) 12:01, 20 June 2014 (UTC)