Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Westerns/2023/September
Recommended page move
[edit]Note that I have opened a move discussion to move List of Spaghetti Western films to List of spaghetti Westerns at Talk:List of Spaghetti Western films#Requested move 24 July 2023. This came up in discussion of moving pages/titles from "Western" to "western" and was supported by editors on both sides of that issue. The item at issue is that "spaghetti" is not a proper noun and per MOS:GENRECAPS should not be capitalized. So we're talking about noting "spaghetti Western" instead of "Spaghetti Western". This is consistent with other subgenres such as "contemporary Western", "revisionist Western", "science fiction Western", and others. The only time a subgenre would be capitalized would be if the name was a proper noun, such as Australian Western (but not "meat pie Western") or Florida Western (but not "cracker Western"). ButlerBlog (talk) 16:14, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- I have already edited the spaghetti Western article to reflect this (note it was mixed and not consistent before my edit, although there were more instances of "Spaghetti" than "spaghetti"). I noted this change on the talk page for discussion should anyone disagree with the change. ButlerBlog (talk) 16:16, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- This makes sense, but I will continue to strongly object to Wikipedia's attempt to impose its rather arbitrary MoS stuff on Western as a genre. It seems ironic to me that a tertiary source like Wikipedia is so brazen in its attempts to override academic norms and standards. I suspect there might eventually be some fussing over "Science Fiction" versus "science fiction" (if it hasn't already happened), but at least we managed to hold the line here. Intothatdarkness 16:55, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- Just to note - it wasn't necessarily arbitrary. That move discussion started because the editor has a difference of opinion on capitalization and had made some of those page moves as noncontroversial based on his reading of MOS:GENRECAPS, which would lowercase any genre that is not a proper noun (and I agree with that). I had reverted those moves because my interpretation (and I assume yours as well) is that the GENRECAPS actually supports uppercase Western because it is a proper noun - it references the American West - a location, not a direction. So based on my revert, he had a right to open discussion to establish consensus, which is what he did. Anyway... I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, especially since we both agree on the end result. I just wanted to note that consensus discussions are not an attempt to impose something arbitrary (and if the item for discussion is arbitrary, it would certainly be shot down as lacking support from our guidelines). They're a key part of what we do here and participation is important, so thanks for your participation. ButlerBlog (talk) 18:16, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- I'm referring to Wikipedia's rather arbitrary MoS guidelines and not that discussion in particular. I agree discussion can be important, but it can also be an echo chamber or bludgeon, depending. But that's my own discounted opinion, of course. And thanks for mentioning these discussions here. Intothatdarkness 18:37, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- Just to note - it wasn't necessarily arbitrary. That move discussion started because the editor has a difference of opinion on capitalization and had made some of those page moves as noncontroversial based on his reading of MOS:GENRECAPS, which would lowercase any genre that is not a proper noun (and I agree with that). I had reverted those moves because my interpretation (and I assume yours as well) is that the GENRECAPS actually supports uppercase Western because it is a proper noun - it references the American West - a location, not a direction. So based on my revert, he had a right to open discussion to establish consensus, which is what he did. Anyway... I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, especially since we both agree on the end result. I just wanted to note that consensus discussions are not an attempt to impose something arbitrary (and if the item for discussion is arbitrary, it would certainly be shot down as lacking support from our guidelines). They're a key part of what we do here and participation is important, so thanks for your participation. ButlerBlog (talk) 18:16, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- This makes sense, but I will continue to strongly object to Wikipedia's attempt to impose its rather arbitrary MoS stuff on Western as a genre. It seems ironic to me that a tertiary source like Wikipedia is so brazen in its attempts to override academic norms and standards. I suspect there might eventually be some fussing over "Science Fiction" versus "science fiction" (if it hasn't already happened), but at least we managed to hold the line here. Intothatdarkness 16:55, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
@Teblick:, @Intothatdarkness:, @Carptrash:, @Paleface Jack:, @Jburlinson:, @Ejgreen77:, @Dr. Blofeld: Pinging editors who have contributed to Westerns to notify of move discussion per WP:APPNOTE. The above mentioned move discussion is taking place at: Talk:List of Spaghetti Western films#Requested move 24 July 2023 ButlerBlog (talk) 18:20, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- I just replied there. Intothatdarkness 18:42, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
@Teblick:, @Intothatdarkness:, @Carptrash:, @Paleface Jack:, @Jburlinson:, @Ejgreen77:, @Dr. Blofeld: - Once again we have a move discussion that needs your attention at Talk:List of spaghetti Westerns#Requested move 30 August 2023. This is primarily a notice for interested parties to participate per WP:APPNOTE. However, I will say that I'm sorry to notify so soon after the previous two discussions, and I am of the opinion that the current discussion was improper. It should have been a WP:MRV discussion with the previous RM's closer as they feel the previous discussion was improperly closed. The main reason for bringing this up again is the importance of this discussion in the bigger picture of the Westerns project. If moved, this discussion becomes a backdoor to lowercasing "Westerns" across the board, which will change the long-standing consensus to uppercase it, affecting a multitude of page titles, categories, templates, and such that are named based on this. Of course, those are my opinions. If any of you are of the opinion that it should be lowercased, that's fine, too, as long as it is supported by policy, MOS, or sources - but I think that discussion should be had on a broad level rather than using a single article title. Regardless, please make sure that positions are well supported by policy. If you want to refer to the positions laid out in the previous recent discussions, the previous "spaghetti Western" move discussion is here with the larger multi-move discussion here. Thanks in advance for your attention, and hopefully, this will be the last one for a while (although if the outcome of this is to move, I'd expect that to lead to a new multi-move discussion to lowercase across the board). ButlerBlog (talk) 15:09, 3 September 2023 (UTC)