Talk:List of systems engineering universities

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(No) articles like this

We do not have articles like this on other sciences. Is there any reason we have this? DGG (talk) 02:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know these list are most of the time integrated in main articles, see for example in the History of science and technology article. Like that article is related to history of science article, this article is related to the Systems engineering article. An other example in the same category is the List of Systems Biology Research Groups

One of the main reasons I created this article in the first place is to get a better understanding of what Systems Engineering is about. We have been talking about it for the past months in the Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems and particularly in the Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems Engineering Initiative. This list is meantioned there as one of the initiatives.

Now this list gives an overview what kind of forms of Systems Engineering exist at the universities. And where? We are going to use this information. This doesn't mean that the curent list has to stay this way. I have some more ideas aqbout this. If you have any suggestions, pleace let me know? - Mdd 11:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The material in the history of sci. article is challenged, (& not by me), so it's not the best of precedents. As for the other, I can think of no precedent for that one either, & I left a comment there. For one thing, please do not duplicate between the two, or arrange it so most are listed in both. Is there a place on the web that does contain such a list? Then why not simply link to it? Otherwise, consider an article Education in system research, with substantial amount of discussion that does not repeat other articles, and to which this list can be appended.

One other thing: read WP:WALL. I know that isn't the intent, but you want to avoid that impression. DGG (talk) 19:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You ask all multiple questions with I would like to answer one at time - Mdd 22:25, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No more precedents? no comparable lists?

Wikipedia offers all kinds of lists. To give an example:

From this list at least nr. 1, 3 and 10 are very closely related. So there are more expamples.

I shall certainly challenge those three. the others are not that closely parallel, except for being academic DGG (talk) 07:59, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed the Category:Lists of universities and colleges -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 11:17, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The duplication of institutes in the list?

The duplication is a result of the choice to arranged this list thematical? The reason I did this is, because there are all kinds of different Systems Engineer programs.

Is there a place on the web that does contain such a list?

Just like the comparable lists 1, 3 & 10, I suppose there isn't. This list is assembled from the Wikipedia itselve. All the information was allready here. Any one who spend 4 hours looking can come up with exactly the smae list.

Consider an article Education in system research?

There is a big difference. This list is specific anbout systems engineering. Systems research can span systems theory, systems ecology, systems biology, study of complex systems, mathematical systems theory, systems engineering and more specific forms. See also the next point.

OK, Education n systems engineering. DGG (talk) 07:57, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. In time this list more improved or an article Education in systems engineering in the Wikipedia mainspace can be a good soultion - Mdd 21:02, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To which this list can be appended?

This list can be appended to the systems engineering article. If there is more information, then maybe also an article Education in systems engineering can be created.

WP:WALL?

I like to think that with the Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems and the Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems Engineering Initiative we are not just working for ourselves.

The intention of this list

The intention of this list is to give an up to date overview of higher systems engineering eduction. The current is just a beginning. I'm open for ideas about imporvement.

I hope this gives you some more ideas. - Mdd 22:25, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Article moved

This article is moved just like the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Systems/List of systems engineering books because the information is of particular interest for the further realisation of this project - Mdd 23:31, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Probably the best solution for now.DGG (talk) 07:59, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok thank you. - Mdd 21:02, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gradschool.com

The website Gradschool.com gives a list of

57 Systems Engineering Graduate Programs in East U.S.A., see [1]
26 Systems Engineering Graduate Programs in West U.S.A., see [2]

Maybe there are more of thise sites which can give such information!? - Mdd 21:32, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The construction of this List of systems engineering at universities

This talk started on the Talk:Systems engineering# List of systems engineering at universities

A List of systems engineering at universities is beeing developed to get a better impression of the State of the Art in SE education. If you have any information, please edit the list yourselve or let us know? -Mdd 18:48, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just a quick note of caution. A "list of systems engineering at universities" may have elements that cause confusion. For instance, I have seen universities claim courses, say Communications Systems Engineering, under the heading of Systems Engineering where the actual course addresses the engineering of communications artifacts without ever getting into the discipline of systems engineering proper. -- Iterator12n ^Talk 19:28, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are a lot of concerns here, both with the practice and with the construction of this list. There is still a lot of data rather unsorted:

The names of the programs
The level of degrees: BA, MA, PhD and more?
The names of the depratments offering these programs
The existence of program and website in English
The weblinks towards these programs and organizations
Where to set the boudaries of types of SE?
The completeness of the list
The consistency with other lists i.e. the INCOSE list
How to maintain this list, keep it up to date

The boudary setting here is a big issue. In the Netherlands for example now only 1 program is determined, but if more types of SE are accepted the number of programs can go up to 10 or 20. And then we am not even looking at the actual course content. - Mdd 11:56, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Will follow the discussion and contribute where & when I can. -- Iterator12n ^Talk 14:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's surprising that, given the main article's attribution of the origins of systems design engineering in the US, no US schools are included. In fact, the origin of undergraduate SysDes Eng, as we practictioners call it, is at MIT in the 60s. In the late 60s programs at Carnegie-Mellon and the University of Waterloo in Canada began. The Waterloo program is known workdwide and draws from an international list of applicants. It also has an active graduate program offering both Masters and PhDs. If you want more information, I can be reached at 99.247.135.102 (talk) 17:20, 3 June 2009 (UTC) Duncan George[reply]

Universidad Simon Bolivar in Caracas, Venezuela

This university doesnt offer systems engineering. It just offers Computer Engineering.... and it is not the same —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.211.95.152 (talk) 22:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for this information and the correction you made on the article. -- Mdd (talk) 23:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Improvement proposal

I'm a fan of tables. If we built a couple with bit more information for each school, we could cut down on all the "sub-lists" (We should still split out the US / outside US to keep it manageable.)

University	College	Department	Degrees Offered
George Mason University	The Volgenau School of Information Technology and Engineering	Systems Engineering and Operations Research [3]	BS and MS in Systems Engineering Ph.D in Information Technology with concentration in Systems Engineering

Since there is not much consensus on what constitutes systems engineering, I would collapse all the "specialty" lists and just identify what degrees are actually offered at each school. (The reader can then decide whether an "Engineering Management" degree is the same as an SE degree or go check the school's website.)
ComputerGeezer (talk) 02:18, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think, starting with tables is a good thing, but cutting down all the "sub-lists" isn't. And I will tell you why:

The INCOSE is allready offering a list of systems engineering education around the world, and that list doesn't make any differentiation.

So the extra dimension of this listing are the sublistings. If you want to skipp them, you might as well skipp the whole listing, because that already exits. -- Mdd (talk) 02:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The INCOSE list [4] is not differentiated between degree and certificate programs, but it is restricted to what INCOSE deems "SE" programs. To be neutral the wiki "university" list should include programs asserted to be systems engineering related, but identify which department is offering what degrees. This would avoid double-listing where Oakland offers both SE and IE degrees while allowing the reader to decide whether Vanderbilt's "Engineering Management" degree is really SE or not. ComputerGeezer (talk) 15:50, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I fully agree with you, but I think we have other objectives here:

One of the main reasons I started this list was, to investigate which types of systems engineering exits. This idea came to me in the process of improving the Systems Engineering article.
Now you want to symplify this structure of this list, and add some extra data. If you only split US and Outside US, you will have an other list: This list will mainly show which university offer any kind of Systems Engineering education.

Now I think we can do both by splitting this list into two listings.

The improved listing you propose, which remains the List of systems engineering at universities
and a new list for my objective called List of types of systems engineering. This can be a list in the line of the list of types of systems theory.

I can created this new list. Are you willing to improve this listing? -- Mdd (talk) 19:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe such a list would be valuable but challenging. The systems theory list points out that "...systems: theory and applications" is not he same as "systems theory". But we have a much harder time deciding whether "mechanical systems engieering" is really a narrow form of "systems engineering" or a broad form of mechanical (specialty) engineering. There are lots of "computer systems engineering" references out there that are really computer technician activities. (Rather like the old use of "sanitation engineer" instead of "garbage collector".)

We would need to build the list using a standard of "who says this is systems engineering" to add it to the list. The very act of creating the list could actually help move the debate forward.

ComputerGeezer (talk) 20:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I made a start with that List of types of systems engineering based on the information given in this list. The next step can be to add some publications to each type of systems engineering. -- Mdd (talk) 22:47, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'll get started on a new table set in my sandbox. I'll drop it here once it is presentable... ComputerGeezer (talk) 00:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, good luck. -- Mdd (talk) 00:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New table version

I have transcribed the list into (sortable) table form, so now you can look by name, or by department/school, or by degree type. (Or by location outside the US.)

Not all of the entries included department/school data. We can look that up and add it as time is available.

Feel free to correct any errors I've made...

ComputerGeezer (talk) 20:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much. I will take a look at it. -- Mdd (talk) 20:35, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Systems engineering vs. the engineering of systems

Very much for computer systems but also for other types of systems, such as space systems, avionics systems, etc., when American universities write "computer systems engineering" we should be aware that they often mean "the engineering of computer systems", as opposed to "the systems engineering of computers." In other words, in many cases a computer systems engineering course of study does not put the focus on systems engineering in the way that say INCOSE treats systems engineering. In those cases, universities may offer a systems engineering class as an elective, but little more. By the way, a similar thing is also true for engineering text books. One of many confusions in engineering. -- Iterator12n ^Talk 03:10, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Copy-paste registration

In this edit text is here copy/pasted from the [systems engineering]] article. -- Mdd (talk) 22:24, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List may not be complete

The list of universities offering systems engineering degree may not be complete. For example, Colorado Technical University offers master of science in systems engineering but it is not listed here. However wikipedia does have an article on Colorado Technical University. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.169.179.61 (talk) 14:09, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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