Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion/New religious movements work group

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Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi

This page has been subject to long term abuse by followers of the Pakistani new religious leader Gohar Shahi who have sidelined any report of the mentioned death of the person and changed it to mere disappearance which none of the sources claim. The Pakistani government and courts [and press] treat Shahi as having died in 2001 and have dismissed various cases of blasphemy against him based on that. Basically two groups arose after his death in 2001 with the larger one being Messiah Foundation International which claims that Shahi did not die and that is what is being reflected in the article. (I recommend reading this journal article by Yoginder Sikand on the leader and the movement(s) founded by him.)

I am not sure how to approach this and am not too familiar with new religious movements. Please see what should be done here, pinging @FULBERT, Gwenhope, and SMBisbee: for reviewing this. Thanks. Gotitbro (talk) 17:51, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, I am not in any way knowledgeable about Asian NRMs. However if official sources list someone as dead, unless very reliable sources put the official source into dispute for a legitimate reason, we should write it as if the person were decreased on Wikipedia. Reversion seems necessary if that is indeed the case. Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 19:15, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Jayen466: Can you please provide a comment as to what should be done here? The article's status has not changed much since I first made this comment. Gotitbro (talk) 19:22, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We should go with what the mainstream sources say. That is the person is dead, however, mentioning what the other sources have claimed (though the proof is lacking). ─ The Aafī (talk) 17:54, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@TheAafi: Yes, that is what I was thinking. On the lines of "Though he died in 2001(citations/note here), a section of his followers claims that he has merely diasppeared and is still alive(citations/note here)". With further changes to the article per this. Gotitbro (talk) 18:05, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Gotitbro, sometimes it happens that a person venerates some one so much that they do not agree with their death. "How can such a person die"? We need to throw such misinformation out of this encyclopedia. If their claims of Shahi being alive are produced by reliable sources, mentioning them makes sense. Otherwise, we just go with what the legitimate reliable sources say, and of course, we give some weight to primary sources as well. We take the balanced approach here. This is not a biography of a living person anymore, in my opinion. ─ The Aafī (talk) 18:12, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, I also went through the 23 other language wikis to check the status of his articles there; on Bengali, Finnish, Malaysian, Punjabi, Simple, Portuguese, Romanian, Swedish, Urdu, Vietnamese and Chinese he is reported to be still alive likely due to the articles being later translations of the enwiki article (after COI editing had taken place). I will wait for further comments and implement the changes of his death if no one is opposed to it as such here. Gotitbro (talk) 18:29, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Notice of Featured Article Review

I have nominated Malcolm X for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Z1720 (talk) 16:16, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bentinho Massaro article

Hello all,

I recently created an article on Bentinho Massaro, who may be of interest to members of this WikiProject.

Any additional eyes on this article would be greatly appreciated. QueenofBithynia (talk) 21:43, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Two articles for deletion - Nigerian Pentecostalism articles

Please see these two articles and share your opinions on notability:

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gospel Light International Ministries
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Felix Omobude
- Felix Omobude is the General Superintendent of Gospel Light International Ministries

Thanks,

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 17:04, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kardecist spiritism listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Kardecist spiritism to be moved. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. Natg 19 (talk) 21:43, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:Philippine Senate hearing on the Kingdom of Jesus Christ#Requested move 25 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Philippine Senate hearing on the Kingdom of Jesus Christ#Requested move 25 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. HueMan1 (talk) 14:20, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dispute at Cargo cult

There has been ongoing disputes at the Cargo cult article over the last few months about how the article is written. There is a big gap between popular conceptions of "cargo cults" and the anthropological reality that this is a broad label used to cover wildly different new religious movements that are largely united by their millenarian character. Outside input would be appreciated. Thanks. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hemiauchenia, as I brought up at WP:FTN#Cargo_cult, you're continuing to give a non-neutral summary. One of the main questions at hand is whether "cargo cult" is a "broad label" that generally means any Melanesian millennarian religious movement (whether or not they had anything to do with cargo of any kind), or whether it refers to a rather specific phoenomenon about ritual action in pursuit of cargo. And this message presupposes your position. Leijurv (talk) 18:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kevin Trudeau's Global Information Network (GIN)

When the Kevin Trudeau's Global Information Network (GIN) article was initially rejected, it said that I could get some support from a relevant WikiProject. It is incomplete but is much more detailed than when it was initially submitted. Just seeking some guidance. Grad0507 (talk) 18:06, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Grad0507 A big first problem I see here is, why does this cite the BITE model and other general cult/high control resources as one of its most used sources when the BITE model does not mention Trudeau? This is textbook Wikipedia:No original research. You should generally only be citing sources that are on the topic. It looks notable but that is a big issue. This is written like an essay rather than neutrally. PARAKANYAA (talk) 19:23, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'll keep that in mind. Grad0507 (talk) 21:09, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template discussion

I've started a discussion at the teahouse that may be of interest to this work group. Iggy pop goes the weasel (talk) 22:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Scientology religion vs. Church of Scientology

Hi, this is a comment from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion, but since there have been no replies since last month, I've decided to post it here and ping @FULBERT, Gwenhope, SMBisbee, and Gotitbro: and others (not sure if these users are still active in the NRM work group).

I have a comment about a "religion/ideology/movement" vs. an "institution/organization/church":

From what I know, the "Scientology religion" refers to the religion itself, and the movement as a whole. The "Church of Scientology" is the name of the organization and/or organizations involved. There is a subtle distinction between the two. Thus, I think it's better to say that David Miscavige is "the leader of the Scientology religion" (in both the words of Scientologists and their critics), rather than simply a "leader of the Church of Scientology".

First of all, Scientology is a hierarchal religion comprised of distinct corporations that operate within the framework of the religion. These include the Church of Scientology Los Angeles, Church of Scientology International, Church of Scientology Western United States, and many others on five continents. Each entity is a 501(c)(3) corporation with its own board of directors responsible for overseeing its operations. Also, Miscavige serves as the Chairman of the Board for the Religious Technology Center (RTC).

There are many sources that cite him as the worldwide leader of the Scientology religion, which is a movement consisting of thousands of Churches, Missions, and affiliated groups across more than 100 countries.

There are also websites such as ScientologyReligion.org. I've listed some snippets below to give you an idea.

"As the founder of the Scientology religion and the sole author of its scripture, L. Ron Hubbard ..." [1]

In the official Scientology biography about Miscavige, he is described as:

"David Miscavige is the ecclesiastical leader of the Scientology religion." [2]

A Google search for "Scientology religion" Miscavige (including the quotation marks) turns up a lot of results where "Scientology religion" is mentioned.

DjembeDrums (talk) 20:28, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From what I can see at Religious Technology Center, it appears to be a mere front for the church itself (as with its other branches/registered entities).

The Church of Scientology is itself a generic term used to refer to all these entities together.

Since this is a request for a lead change at David Miscavige which reads thus:

David Miscavige is an American Scientologist who is serving as the second and current leader of the Church of Scientology. His official title within the organization is Chairman of the Board of the Religious Technology Center.

I think it can be changed to

David Miscavige is the leader of the Scientology movement. He serves as the second and current leader of the Church of Scientology. His official title within the organization is Chairman of the Board of the Religious Technology Center.

I agree with the changes, in the context of WP:READER, but avoided using religion here as both the Scientology and Church of Scientology articles do not clearly frame it as such. Gotitbro (talk) 04:34, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think this should probably be asked on WP:WikiProject Scientology. PARAKANYAA (talk) 04:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]