Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 15

This is an archive of past discussions about Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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Policy on biography infoboxes

In view of recent problems, I am wondering if we should have a policy on biography infoboxes - to be included on the main project page.

Here is a possible wording:

New infoboxes: We hope all new infoboxes will be proposed and discussed on the project talk page, before being added to individual pages. We deplore the use of generic infoboxes that contain factual errors and ambiguities, because they have not been designed with opera articles in mind.

Do you agree with this? Is the wording OK or should it be changed in any way? Thanks --Kleinzach 14:02, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Although I'd add a final sentence to make it quite clear: Remember: factual accuracy is essential, infoboxes aren't. --Folantin 14:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Mak (talk) 03:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Yep. The original with Folantin's addition looks fine. Cheers, Moreschi ^Talk 14:44, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes. With the additional bit by Folantin. Nice job. Antandrus (talk) 14:47, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. This is now Item 16 on the Project page. --Kleinzach 15:41, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Romantic operas again

Now that this category has been zapped, can we agree a substitute (German romantic operas or Romantischen Opern - but are German-language category names permissible in en.Wikipedia?)? I'll be happy to define it and add it to those opera articles that are entitled to it (and patrol it from time to time!) --GuillaumeTell 17:50, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I think "German Romantic operas" would be fine. It is a specific category and many operas, such as mid-period Wagner, were actually called by that name by their composers. --Folantin 19:09, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I think calling it Romantischen Opern would be in line with using French names for French genres, and perhaps be more specific (less likely to catch 20th century works), but German Romantic (big R?) operas would be OK if you both prefer that. Can I refer you both to Satirical Operas (above)? I'd be grateful for your ideas. --Kleinzach 23:33, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Big R for the artistic movement. --Folantin 08:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

On reflection, having it in German might be more likely to keep out interlopers. --GuillaumeTell 15:42, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Good. That was my feeling too. And it would be consistent with our idea of using original designations to keep everything crystal clear. --Kleinzach 23:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I've now created Category:Romantischen Opern and populated it. --GuillaumeTell 10:30, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it should be in English, like the rest of this Wiki. Andy Mabbett 12:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, then opéra comique should be "comic opera"? --Folantin 12:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Or maybe Orfeo ed Euridice should be anglicised, never mind the confusion that would cause. Maybe the same for L'incoronazione di Poppea? Le Devin du village? Come on. Moreschi ^Talk 13:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Or indeed Haute couture, Bossa nova, Mahjong, Sudoku and Kindergarten. But since my joke has already been misinterpreted as advice here, I'd better remember WP:BEANS. --Folantin 16:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Anybody here able to tell the difference between Spanish and Portuguese?

In Wieland Wagner I have referenced a page [1] which I thought was Spanish, but I'd like to check. Peter cohen 22:55, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's in Spanish. :) Antandrus (talk) 22:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Spanish. --Kleinzach 22:59, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Crikey! That was quick. Thanks, both. Peter cohen 23:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Opera characters

Is there a view on having entries for characters? With title charaqcters, you can reference the opera; with parts such as Hagen it is possible to reference the mythic or historic characters on which the part is based; but what about Eva or Elisabeth? Peter cohen 23:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

We have quite a strong policy on not having articles on characters. In fact they have been deleted in the past. We prefer to discuss Iago, say, in the Otello article, not outside it. For the same reason we prefer not to have articles on individual arias, sections of operas etc. --Kleinzach 23:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

That would explain the rather eccentric list in the arias category. Peter cohen 23:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Category:Sacred operas

Following Satirical operas, can we delete this one as well? It only has two items. --Kleinzach 23:29, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

As the editor who created the category, my opininon: 1) I would not be offended if it was deleted if it does not fit the overall categorization scheme. 2 ) Some background to assist in considering the question - a) I think I may have gotten the term from a book by Grout which I do not currently have in my possession, but I'm not sure. b) Sant'Alessio is a type of opera that was a descendant of an earlier artistic form, the "sacred drama" c) The composer and librettist may not have termed it as any kind of opera, because I'm not sure if the term was in use then (1630) (Someone else might be able to check for sure on that if it matters). d) Would we have an alternative classification by genre for Sant'Alessio? Does each opera article require at least one classification by genre?

That's all from me; happy to have people giving careful consideration to good categories, Cheers, Lini 00:20, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. First of all, the operas don't all have genre cats, though it is helpful to put them in when appropriate. In the past we had a lot of genres which were translations of foreign terms that lost specificity. We've been weeding these out and replacig them with unambiguous (often foreign-language) terms, e.g. opera ballet become opéra-ballet etc. As for Sant'Alessio, Grove decribes this as a Dramma musicale. Was that was the designation Landi himself used? Does anybody know? --Kleinzach 02:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

New Oxford History of Music also uses the term dramma musicale, although not specifically ascribing it to Landi himself.

So, I believe I'm beginning to catch on to this ("I see," said the blind man, as he picked up his hammer and saw... :) The genre cats don't necessarily have to include the word opera in the name. This leads me to 2 things:

If after allowing additional time for further comments by other editors, there is agreement on deleting the Sacred Operas cat, I wonder if we could do it via speedy deletion; if I endorsed the deletion, as the creator of the category, and the only person to add the category to any article, and with the backing of the Opera project for the deletion? Lini 05:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Fine by me. --Kleinzach 05:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I suppose that the major problem with this one is that a sacred opera is usually called an oratorio. Obviously, that's a bit simplistic, but not far off. {{db-author}}? Moreschi ^Talk 14:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Lini, would you like to go ahead and delete it? --Kleinzach 00:56, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, will take care of it this morning --Lini 11:25, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I've placed a speedy deletion tag on the category and depleted it of the two articles. --Lini 11:51, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

And, voila! it's already gone :) --Lini 12:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Category:Pastoral operas

Then, also, I wonder about my other "baby" :) the Pastoral Operas cat; I have seen other names used for the early 17th century works that would fall into this category, like pastoral tragi-comedy, dramma pastorale, or simply pastorale. But, one problem with those terms is that they can also be used for works other than operas, like Guarini's play, Il pastor fido, (a pastoral tragicomedy), for example. Thoughts? Thanks, Lini 05:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

(I have taken the liberty of making a new section - Hope that's OK.) Grove has a wide-ranging article on Pastoral (It. pastorale, Ger. Hirtenstück, Hirtenspiel, Schäferspiel etc.) by Geoffrey Chew - also on Pastorale-héroïque (a form of ballet-héroïque). Oxford has an entry on Pastorale which seems more limited. But this is not my field! --Kleinzach 05:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I think this one is useful: it's a valid term and the category can and will expand. Moreschi ^Talk 14:56, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

If we want to keep it as pastoral operas (no change in wording or spelling) can we have a definition and a reference to tie it down? --Kleinzach 22:54, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I had started an article on Pastoral opera (merely an outline so far) here. I do currently have a print copy at home of an older edition of Grove with the article on Pastoral that Kleinzach mentions above.

However, to be honest, this article, if left to me, will be a long time coming. For a few reasons -

a.) my editing time each day is limited (both by demands of a busy life, and by choice - it is addictive for me if I let it be), so sometimes, if I make one contribution to a discussion like the "Infoboxes debate", that's about all that I will take time for in one day. (Also, I think things thru quite a lot, so it may take a long time to say a little.)

b.) This next reason reminds me of something Kleinzach said regarding a potential Composers infobox (if there were ever to be such a thing) - it would need to be linked to good supporting articles - well, what has been happening with me as I've started to assemble the outline for Pastoral opera, and have been doing some background reading, is that I am finding work to be done on articles about literary forms; composers, poets, and librettists from the late Renaissance/ early Baroque; poetic and dramatic works from that era, etc. all of which could be referenced in the Pastoral opera article.

c.) I'm still learning/ growing/ stretching my abilities as an article contributor - the types of articles (improvement of or creation of) that I mention in (b) above are more my speed at this time; I can usually use existing materials as a guideline to the "scope" of the article, and then synthesize information from various sources, taking care not to copyvio and/or plagiarize. With the Pastoral opera article, I don't have an example or "prototype" to look at; therefore feel that I must come up with all of the following: the scope, outline, and well-sourced but not copyvio text - which I think I could do eventually, but I admit it will take quite a while.

Thanks for (hopefully) bearing with me, as this edit has sort of developed into a somewhat long-winded explanation of how I work in Wikipedia; if we are to work together as co-participants in a project, as I hope to do, then maybe it is helpful to get to understand one another (as I think that many of you probably do fairly well already, after long experience working together, or so it seems?)

Thanks, --Lini 23:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Lini. I can see no harm in keeping the Pastoral Opera category alive in the interim. After all, we don't have to fill it with every pastoral opera created right away. --Folantin 08:34, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

–I have a general question about templates. Writing a libretto, I searched Microsoft and others (and Google) for a libretto template but found none. I found plenty for a playscript however. Does a style and thus a template exist for Opera libretti?

Question about Wikisource

I don’t quite understand why the lyrics will have to be copied to Wiki source. Does it mean all current lyrics/texts will be transferred to Wikisource and future lyrics/text will have to be done there? How does the link works then? Take one example, La Traviata article and one of the arias - Libiamo ne' lieti calici. Currently, when we hit “Libiamo ne' lieti calici” link in the main page, it will go to a new page under “Libiamo ne' lieti calici” title in Wikipedia, and if we want to write a lyric, we just need to write in a new page and then link it to the main article. Does the new policy (is it new?) means that we have to write the lyric in wikisource and then link it to wikipedia? (correct me if I’m wrong) . It is a bit hassle, isnt it? It is much easier like how it is now , this is just my opinion.- Jay 15:04, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the point of not having individual articles on arias here at Wikipedia is that it's very difficult to write good articles about them. What's there to say? Usually just where the aria takes place in the opera and the libretto. Really, articles should not be written than couldn't be improved to featured status. At least in my view. These ones usually can't be. Moreschi ^Talk 15:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

The point about Wikisource is that Wikipedia is meant to be an encyclopedia, so simply having collections of texts does not fit in well with that goal. Wikisource is meant to be a collection of free source texts. Although it makes sense to quote lines from a work when discussing it, it does not usually make sense to have the entire text as part of the discussion. Mak (talk) 15:47, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Especially when that text comprises most of the article, which is especially undesirable. Moreschi ^Talk 15:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

It's also the case that an increasing number of out-of-copyright opera libretti are available on the Internet (a good source is Bob Frone's page, and links can be - and are (or if they aren't, they should be) - provided from individual operas' pages. --GuillaumeTell 17:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Are Handel's Oratorios part of the Opera category?

hey all, I'm studying Handel's oratorios pretty intensively this semester and I've taken on to clean up and some some basic editing on the pages for all of his works of this genre... but I've come into an interesting question:

Do we, as a wikipedia community, consider Handel's unstaged oratorios, to be a subcategory of opera?

Handel produced and performed his English oratorios in stage-only form, although many of his librettists put stage directions in the libretti (which were never intended to be performed) to inspire the reader of the libretto and Handel's musical genius to great dramatic specificity.

In later years, folks have apparently produced stage versions of oratorios in the manner of operas. It seems like opera-enthusiasts on WP have included these works in the opera category on this basis.

How do we define whether Handel's originally unstaged works belong in the opera category? If it has ever received a performance operatically? Or should we put all of Handel's oratorios in a subcategory of opera? or none of them? If they've never had a staged performance, is WP-Opera interested in these works?

I'm relatively new to WP editing and I'm trying to understand how to build consensus around these issues... if there's a different place I should pursue these discussions, I'd appreciate any advice!

cheers! Fred 14:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello again. I think I've already given an explanation of this elsewhere: "I don't think it's a good idea putting all of Handel's oratorios into the opera category, because most of them certainly can't be described as opera. There are three exceptions, I think: the masque Acis and Galatea, and the secular oratorios Semele and Hercules are often considered borderline operas and staged as such. I think the best thing to do would be to create a category for Handel's oratorios. Those three works would then be put into both "Operas by Handel" and "Oratorios by Handel"." Some other oratorios by Handel (Theodora for instance) have been staged in recent years, but so has Bach's Saint Matthew Passion. I don't think it's a good idea to describe those works as operas.

Unfortunately, there is no WikiProject:Oratorio (as far as I know), but oratorios certainly fall under the remit of WP:Composers. Also some members here are interested in Handel generally, myself included, so if you need any help with his oratorio articles we'd be willing to give it. Thanks. --Folantin 14:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The three Handel works (and Theodora) are listed in The opera corpus. We also have a Category:Opera oratorios. At the moment this only has Oedipus rex (opera) and El Niño (oratorio). Perhaps the Handel works should go in it? --Kleinzach 15:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The best solution is to put the four Handel works in both the opera and the oratorio categories. I think I have already done this except for Theodora. "Opera-oratorio" is, I believe, a specific category of modern stage work which includes the Stravinsky and Adams mentioned above as well as several other pieces by Arthur Honegger, for instance (I believe we may have articles on some of the latter). --Folantin 16:13, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi again, Folantin -- I forget where you wrote previously, but I do recall it. Thanks for reposting and I agree! We've already created an Oratorios by Handel category and all of the articles on oratorios have joined that category. Thanks for pointing out that there are only four (Acis, Semele, Theodora, and Hercules) that have major consideration of cross-listing -- I missed that and was thinking it was a wider-spread thing than it really is.

It seems a little heavy-handed in Acis and Galatea and Semele (oratorio) to use the handel-operas template -- you get the full list of "Operas by handel" on the right and it doesn't give quite the right impression of the work. The article on Semele, especially, makes a very strong argument about it really being an opera. But I think this is a line of discussion best taken up on the individual articles themselves (which I'll get to sooner or later). It would be neat to have a handel-oratorios template, in the same style as handel operas but for his oratorios, but I don't yet know how to go about creating one. Could you or someone else point me in the right direction or help out with this?

Also, half of the oratorios are named things like "Saul (Handel)" and the other half are named like "Semele (oratorio)". Wikipedia:Naming conventions (pieces of music) suggests that the former is proper and I'd like to go ahead and re-name all of the oratorio articles to use (Handel) instead of (oratorio) (and add appropriate redirects), but I don't know the best way to do that in the wikimedia software, nor do I want to step on anyone's toes by doing it. Does this sound like a reasonable idea? Any advice?

thanks for clarifying about opera-oratorios, I was wondering about that one myself. cheers! Fred 16:21, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I think User:Whjayg is the expert template designer round here. He's certainly created quite a few excellent navigation boxes for us recently. You might want to contact him on his talk page and see if he's interested in designing one for Handel's oratorios. --Folantin 16:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I think changing them to be all the same naming scheme would be quite good. If you have trouble re-naming any of them because of redirects in the way or anything, just let me know and I'll move them, since I have the admin bit. I'd just like to note that Handel's oratorios were written for performance during Lent, when the regular theatres were closed. The audience, the performers, the patrons, and the composer were the same, it was just the subject matter (sacred) and performance space which were different. They really were ina similar mileux. For oddest staged Handel oratorio, I saw La Resurrezione staged in Chicago a couple springs ago. Mak (talk) 16:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, that original performance of La Resurrezione was kind of semi-staged: or, at the least, it had "stage pictures", so I recall. Semele is an odd one: it was not staged dramatically - unlike Acis+Galatea - but the subject matter is unusually dramatic for a Handel oratorio. I agree that the oratorio names are a mess, that needs to be sorted out. Apparently Saul has also been done as an opera, so the whole thing is a bit of a gray area. But mostly one does have to respect what the composer originally intended.

Oh, and there's this great story concerning Theodora, was initially something of a flop: Handel explained that "The Jews will not come to it as to Judas, because it is a Christian story, and the ladies will not come because it is a virtuous one". Moreschi ^Talk 17:30, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Can I just caution against any large scale change in article names? We have a system which may or may not be orthodox but which has suited our purposes. This is what it says on our project page:

To avoid ambiguity the word opera, or the name of the composer, may be added to the title in parentheses. For example Macbeth (opera) refers to the work by Verdi to distinguish it from Macbeth which is the play by Shakespeare. Likewise Otello (Rossini) is differentiated from the more famous work of Verdi which is simply Otello.

Oratorios may be marginal here (and changing oratorio names is fine by me), but I hope we are not going to be making changes across the board. IMO this would be counter-productive. Thanks. --Kleinzach 01:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Good question by Fred. I been wanting to ask the very same question when I first saw it (Handel's opera and Oratorio cat). I am no expert in this but as far as I am concerned, Oratorios are not opera. Although Oratorios music settings (sacred texts) are dramatic and look/sound like opera but they are not staged (play) with actor/actresses like in opera. Probably I am wrong about this but that is the definition of oratorios that I know of. If we looked at Category:Oratorios by George Frideric Handel, it is a bit confusing to me. Acis and Galatea and Hercules are placed in both oratorio and opera categories. Are they oratorio-opera? Is it correct? I did some search on the internet, here is the definition of oratorios by The Groves:-

“New Groves Dictionary of Music and Musicians defines oratorio as “an extended musical 
 setting of a sacred text made up of dramatic, narrative and contemplative elements.
 ” Unlike opera, oratorios are never staged. “

I want to create a navigation box but I don’t know which are oratorios and opera. Some of the “oratorios” in Category:Oratorios by George Frideric Handel were staged and acted. I believe it is important for those who are expert in this to determine the correct categories. - Jay 15:22, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, in a few instances there's no hard and fast divide, as is the case with these four works by Handel. But when push comes to shove, they are better considered as oratorios (at least for the purposes of nav boxes - it would be ridiculous to have two long boxes on the page for those four). We can provide a list of Handel's oratorios if you like. Maybe it won't be too difficult to use an adjusted version of the Handel opera nav box template for the purpose. Assuming you have the time and you want to do this, of course. Nobody wants to impose on you. Thanks. --Folantin 15:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Jay's excellent question about the definition of oratorio deserves a bit more commentary! Grove's textbook definition of oratorio fails us a bit here, which causes some of the confusion. Handel's works are oratorios, but at the same time he was literally re-defining the style of what oratorio was as he was writing these things. Purcell has a handful of major oratorios before Handel, but no other major composer had done work in the field that survives in performance today.

He had been the most famous composer of Italian-style opera (works in italian and everything) in London for a good 15 years (circa 1720-1735) when London's interest in Italian-style opera dried up and his opera corporation went broke. Being resourceful, he took all of his operatic experience and started producing unstaged English-language oratorios during lent, when staged theatre performances were forbidden by the Church. Not only did he not have much competition, but many of his subjects had broad middle-class appeal and were focused on old testament stories which Christians and Jews both were interested in. They became quite popular and he made it his regular gig to write a couple oratorios each summer and then produce a lenten season of oratorios that he had written previously plus the newly composed ones.

As GuillaumeTell points out below, Semele is not on a sacred subject (thus not in grove's definition), and as a such was a bit of a flop for defying the audience's expectations. None-the-less, many of Handel's oratorios are strongly imbued with operatic dimensions... oratorio was an evolution and adaptation of his operatic style and so the two are inseparably linked. For instance, in his Belshazzar (Handel), there are very detailed stage directions included by Charles Jennens, his librettist that were never intended to be expressed in operatic form... But Jennens knew Handel well enough to know that these kinds of stage directions would spark the composer's imagination for dramatic music. (this is all more or less cited from Grove (handel's history) and Winton Dean's "Handel's Dramatic Oratorios and Masques" (belshazzar)). So, Grove's definition is an excellent starting point from which to understand oratorio and how it's different from opera, Handel's output (which, correct me if i'm missing something, is the most significant set of music in the genre) evolved, experimented, and generally didn't try to follow one definition of things.

I hope this clears some things up... feel free to comment or critique -- GuillaumeTell, I'm especially interested is your thoughts.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fred sienkiewicz (talk • contribs) 04:40, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

Dont get me wrong, I was jst asking. There are 16 works in Category:Oratorios by George Frideric Handel. May I know which are oratorios? - Jay 15:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I was just being overpolite and it probably came out wrong ;). The oratorios are listed here [2]. I think Acis and Galatea (c.1718) and Alexander's Feast (1736) from the section above[3] should be included too. --Folantin 16:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Folantin -- all of the ones listed on the List of Compositions page marked as "oratorio" plus those other two (which are "special oratorios" more-or-less). Correct me if I'm wrong, but the list of compositions page seems to have gathered its data from the "Handel Werk-Verzichnes" (HWV for short) or "Catalog of Handel's Works" which is one of the definitive sources on these issues. the catalog is what's known as a "thematic catalog", so works that are of a similar vein are all numbered together (hence all the oratorios being consecutively numbered and such). Thanks for helping out with the template... when it's ready I'm happy to add it to the various pages in question. Fred 04:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I feel quite strongly that should continue to appear in the Handel operas navigational box, as its libretto was specifically written for an opera and it isn't a sacred work in any way. (And of course it should also go on the oratorios list.) --GuillaumeTell 21:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it deserves a place on the oratorios template and I don't see a strong reason to remove it from the operas template (that's not my field, in any case). Do you think it's unfair to have the Semele page itself use the oratorios template rather than the operas one? Fred 04:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I have done the template for oratorios but now the question is, which template shall I place in the article for the 2 in 1 work (oratorio-opera) such as Semele , Acis and Galatea and few more? - Jay 05:45, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Jay -- great work! I side with the HWV and categorize them both as oratorios (I think HWV says Acis is an ode, but in terms of Oratorio vs. Opera, that's more on the side of oratorio), but would it makes sense to resolve these issues on a case-by-case basis on the article's talk pages? or is a centralized debate (here) more appropriate? I'm still new to how all this works... if it makes sense, I've posted an argument for Semele over on Talk:Semele (oratorio). As I wrote over there, I think it makes sense to divide up Handel's later works along a language and premiere performance divide: If he presented it staged and with an Italian libretto, it's Opera, if he presented it unstaged and with an English libretto, it's oratorio. As far as I can think of, he didn't write any English-language Operas, nor any Italian language Oratorios, at least after he became famous in London in the 1720s (I'm not very familiar with the circumstances of his early works). By this test, Semele is an oratorio. I think Acis is as well. None-the-less, both of them seem to have developed a significant post-Handel performance tradition as operas because they work so well on the stage. This should be a clear section inside the article, and the article can be cross-linked with both the opera category and the opera template.

So we can debate the specifics about premiere & such on the individual pages, but does that make sense as a guiding framework for how to make these decisions?

Fred 14:58, 4 May 2007 (UTC)