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Establishing MOS:DATETIES

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Moved from Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Korea (2024 Rewrite & Proposal)
 – seefooddiet (talk) 08:20, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Something that's bugged me over time is that we previously didn't have a recommended MOS:DATEFORMAT per MOS:DATETIES. I just realized I think I can prove that SK/NK have one; to my understanding it's Month, Day, Year.

Below is a quick survey of various Korea-related English-language sources below, mostly from WP:KO/RS#R. Surprisingly all of the ones I looked at use MDY formatting.

I checked 2-3 articles from each source, and they all used MDY.

This seems to hold even for these North Korean sources:

I think there's a reasonably compelling case that we should recommend MDY. I'll add it to the MOS for now, if you dispute it please post here. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 11:26, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry to say that I think the MDY proposal as currently formulated seems to be WP:OR. As you already highlighted, Korean dates typically written in the format YYYY-MM-DD. To recommend MDY as a standard for English-language sources related to Korea, we would need reliable secondary sources that explicitly instruct Koreans to use the MDY format when writing in English. Are there any? The list of websites using MDY could be considered primary sources or data points: to claim that Korean sources prefer MDY format when writing in English, one would ideally need secondary sources that analyze and discuss this preference explicitly, rather than inferring it from a collection of examples.
MDY is very much a US-only thing. When doing a very quick search on Naver I could see recommendations on writing MDY for English when the audience was American, and DMY for European audiences. Though I didn't spend long looking, I don't think we're in a position to make the recommendation for MDY. By contrast, YYYY-MM-DD is an acceptable format in the wider MOS for references, so could recommend that I think.
Great that we've included a section on lunar calendar too. I've been struggling to find a site that will convert old (pre-1900) dates to Gregorian calendar or explains how to do it. Is anyone aware of one?Nonabelian (talk) 22:23, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lunar calendar converter I linked on WP:KOREA's resources section seefooddiet (talk) 07:20, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
MDY works because it is the observed status quo in the majority of South Korean-related articles. DMY usage is minimal and mostly observed in BLP articles, often due to the subject originating from UK-related countries or because the article was already written in British English, both of which fall under strong ties. Another observation for DMY usage is when the article was already using that format, so it was retained. While YYYY-MM-DD is an acceptable format for citations only, when an article is using either MDY or DMY, it is also tagged with {{Use mdy dates}} or {{Use dmy dates}}. These templates automatically render dates [in citations] in the specified format, regardless of the format they are entered in the wikitext. For consistency and maintainability, we should stick to a single style, which, as mentioned at the beginning, should be MDY, as per the nomination. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 06:09, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For these kinds of policies there will always be degrees of OR in proposals in creating and evaluating them. But I think the argument that the evidence is not strong enough is reasonable. However, I suspect there's a reason MDY is being used so consistently in English-language sources from both Koreas. After 30 mins of searching I can't find any guidance on it (not even sure which govt ministry would produce this guidance, if any). seefooddiet (talk) 07:20, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As a heads up, I'm going to retract the strong recommendation to use MDY dates by default, and replace it with a softer recommendation based on common practice. seefooddiet (talk) 00:36, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have noticed that there's inconsistency on South Korean-related article, To point out, most South Korean politician used the DMY format while other category of South Korean article used the MDY format. Usage of MDY is pretty much a US-only thing 81.78.168.51 (talk) 16:23, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you clarify whether you're talking about a specific article or a category of articles? The DMY format is used for the lead sections and infoboxes of WP:BLP articles. The discussion has recently met a consensus that MDY should be used for the body and refs of South Korea-related articles. 00101984hjw (talk) 16:43, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I hate to be reactive instead of proactive here, but I fail to really see how the specific wording here is consistent with WP:DATETIES, with the operative passage even being cited here. There's no reason to prefer MDY nor to switch articles to it, as no English-speaking date preference is at issue. Remsense ‥ 论 06:22, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hm, on a regrettably late closer read you may be right.
However, two other thoughts:
  • I don't think there's anything in Wikipedia's guidelines that prohibits our expressed preference for MDY.
  • If it is the widespread practice of both countries to use MDY when writing English, there may be a separate argument for using MDY.
I'm on the fence though. I'll hold off from further MDY conversions until we reach a conclusion. seefooddiet (talk) 07:05, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's a recent discussion you may want to check out in the MOS:DATE talk archives. This is me serving as the messenger in large part; I just wanted to make sure everyone was fully aware of the previous deliberations of this particular passage—I certainly wasn't! Remsense ‥ 论 07:27, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the heads up. It looks like this overrules my suggestion, and invalidates our use of MDY. I'll start fixing all of this soon argh. seefooddiet (talk) 09:41, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@00101984hjw @Paper9oll @Explicit See the above thread with Remsense; I don't think we should prescribe MDY or even American English (MOS:TIES has similar wording to MOS:DATETIES); think it goes against consensus established at the main MOS. If nobody has any objections, I'll go ahead and revert our preference back to none. seefooddiet (talk) 19:52, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. — 00101984hjw (talk) 20:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cool with it. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 05:31, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would argue that the MOS should direct editors to use American English and date formats, unless the subject has strong ties to a country that uses other variants of English, like Son Heung-min. There's The dominance of American English by The Korea Herald that supports this position. Additional support: Experiences of non-North American teachers of English in American English-dominant Korean ELT and Complex perceptions of Korean English-speakers. Anecdotally, having lived in South Korea for over eight years myself, American English is the standard. I work with and know nationals from countries that use other variants of English, and they all have the same experience: they must use American English. I don't see a particularly strong reason to encourage editors to use a neutral stance on the topic when South Korea clearly has a preference. ✗plicit 14:39, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I feel the same way. The only entities I know of in South Korea that may use non-American English are international schools that follow British curricula. Everything else I've interacted with in South Korea has used American English. @98Tigerius @00101984hjw do you have any thoughts on this? Otherwise the only opposing voice so far is Nonabelian, and they've largely stopped contributing to Wikipedia in the last month. May be able to get this passed. seefooddiet (talk) 19:55, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it’s safe to say MDY is the better option here. It appears to me as well that Korean sources prefer the format in English articles, and Korea definitely has had a stronger American influence throughout its history. — 00101984hjw (talk) 21:16, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh hm wait. Forgot about North Korea. I don't know how prevalent non-American English is there, but at the very least we may be able to get a MDY recommendation passed for both Koreas given evidence in my original post. We'd have to demonstrate prevalence of non-American English in NK before we'd be able to recommend English variety guidance for NK-related articles. seefooddiet (talk) 19:59, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It appears that both KCNA Watch and The Pyongyang Times prefer the MDY format.([15]https://kcnawatch.org/) — 00101984hjw (talk) 21:27, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, mentioned in original post seefooddiet (talk) 21:39, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did a quick Google search and found Ask a North Korean: What is English-language education like in the DPRK?, which reads, "If North Korea hates the U.S. so much, why would its citizens study English? It’s true that North Korea describes the U.S. as a mortal enemy, as invaders and wild dogs with whom it cannot live under one sky. Perhaps that’s why people in North Korea are taught British English, not American English." Unseen part of North Korea [VIDEO] also states, "Except the English we learn is British English, not American English." ✗plicit 00:14, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah makes sense. The use of MDY on their sites is odd. Does anyone have a VPN or live outside the US? Can you tell us if the date format changes to DMY? seefooddiet (talk) 00:25, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I got hold of a VPN and gave it a try. It seems like they genuinely seem to prefer MDY. Also [16] This link uses "humor" instead of the British "humour".
I think we should ask for MDY for both Koreas. I think we can recommend American English for South Korea-related articles, but abstain from commenting on North Korea–related ones for now (until more evidence is gathered). Does this sound good? @00101984hjw @Explicit seefooddiet (talk) 09:45, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me — 00101984hjw (talk) 12:13, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess so. For now, articles about South Korean subjects should use MDY format, while articles about North Korean subjects should remain status quo. ✗plicit 08:14, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Needs to explicitly state that people should not get hanja from Chinese-language sources

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Moved from Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Korea (2024 Rewrite & Proposal)
 – seefooddiet (talk) 08:20, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In Wikipedia, these are sometimes found in hanja names of people:

  • Chinese-language transcription (whose Korean reading does not match the hangul name)
  • Simplified Chinese characters

Chinese-language sources are unreliable for Korean hanja names because they "make up" one when the actual hanja is not known.

Another issue is that some people think the hanja parameter of a Korean-related template must consist of hanja only, even though some names do not have hanja. Such people get hanja from Chinese-language sources and blindly replace the hangul in the hanja parameter.

This page should state at least the following:

Do not get hanja from Chinese-language sources.
  1. Chinese-language sources are unreliable for Korean hanja names because they "make up" one when the actual hanja is not known.
  2. Some names do not have hanja (hanja is not a requirement in names). In such cases, only the surname is written in hanja (e.g. hangul: 김빛나, hanja: 金빛나). Do not blindly replace the hangul in the hanja parameter of a Korean-related template.

172.56.232.61 (talk) 08:53, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The rule sounds good to me. Side note, but I'm a little worried about the word "blindly"; it typically reads a little harsh in English. If you'd like, you can just write comfortably without worrying about tone, and I can go and edit the addition later.
I've been meaning to rewrite much of the MOS anyway, due to #Article naming conventions vs romanization in body. seefooddiet (talk) 17:35, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
About "blindly": I tried to say "don't do that without thinking".
You can simply revise what I wrote above and add it to the page. 172.56.232.109 (talk) 18:33, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for bringing this issue to light. I went ahead and added it to a new subsection called "Sourcing Hanja"; this should probably be resectioned at some point. I slightly reworded your second provision, and I think that the first provision could also be edited (particularly the "make up"), but I don't know how to approach it. Dantus21 (talk) 19:34, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I may rewrite the guidance for Hanja altogether today; the main ideas will be preserved but I will change the ordering and placement of the information seefooddiet (talk) 20:07, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just saw your Hanja MOS rewrite and I gotta say it looks great! Dantus21 (talk) 00:19, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, your rewrite looks great! Thank you. 172.56.232.253 (talk) 20:05, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While I am very late to this discussion, I'll quickly mention the change looks great! Thanks for your work on this. ₪RicknAsia₪ 05:38, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lunisolar calendar details

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Relevant discussion happened here. Lunisolar calendar dates are often vague; giving a go at writing firmer practices in the calendar section. seefooddiet (talk) 19:25, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: MR for historical topics

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Which romanization system do you think we should use for historical Korean topics, McCune–Reischauer (MR) or Revised Romanization of Korean (RR)? We currently use MR. seefooddiet (talk) 21:36, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Opening an WP:RfC mostly to poll opinions from outside WikiProject Korea. If you're a regular at WPK, you've probably already voiced your opinion on this issue (e.g. here); unless you have something new to add, I encourage you to make this thread mostly for non-regulars.
For Korean topics significant before the 1945 division of Korea, we currently recommend the use of the McCune–Reischauer (MR) romanization system. While the use of this system is widespread amongst academics, it may be less popular amongst general audiences around the world. This is even true withiin South Korea, where Revised Romanization (RR) is the standard. North Korea doesn't even really use MR; they use a modified version. So it's basically only academics that use the system now.
Also, MR uses the breve diacritic (◌̆) that's hard to access on most keyboards.
Furthermore, RR is becoming increasingly popular in general, due to South Korea's pop culture. South Korean historical dramas are probably the largest source of article views for pre-1945 Korean history articles. Viewers of these dramas will like South Korean pop culture, thus probably only be familiar with RR.
At present, because of WP:COMMONNAME, numerous pre-1945 topics use RR anyway (see this recent failed move). As a result, we have a mix of MR and RR terms for pre-1945 topics; in the same article you can basically end up with half RR and half MR terminology (example, the title of this article; the person's name is per MR, the disambig per RR).
On the other hand, plenty of pre-1945 topics are basically only mentioned in academic writings.seefooddiet (talk) 03:58, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on RfC format

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Shouldn't this be at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Korean)? It also needs a more neutral phrasing of the question, with your own opinions separated from the question. Kanguole 22:51, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I toned down the wording. This affects both Naming conventions (Korean) and this MOS; maybe it should have been at NCKO but I think no significant difference. NCKO bases its romanization policy on MOS:KO. seefooddiet (talk) 23:44, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That we separate (some but not all of) the language pages from naming pages (or have regional generalizations scattered here and there), with no central organization, is another problem. One place is as good as any as long as everyone is notified. SamuelRiv (talk) 03:26, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Article naming policy is very different from questions of style within articles. Conflating them leads to confusion like the "consistency within an article" remark below. Kanguole 12:55, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You should reformat your RfC to look more like the examples at WP:RfC -- put a clear neutrally-worded question(s) in bullets. Afterward that, you can expand on background, link to relevant discussions, etc. SamuelRiv (talk) 03:28, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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  • Comment.This is a tough call. I appreciate the complexity and importance of this work. I have some general thoughts.

    I have some familiarity with the issues regarding the two romanization systems but I'm not an expert in them or any Korea-related topics. My read of the situation is that it may not be workable to try to enforce a strong policy across all Korea-related articles on English Wikipedia. It seems reasonable to state a preference or default romanization system in borderline cases and provide some common guidelines, exceptions, and considerations, with examples. WP:COMMONNAME and other general naming guidance along with consensus on particular articles will often prevail in the ultimate decision. The Chinese naming conventions may be a good model. They default to pinyin but concisely describe important exceptions. Infoboxes provide flexibility to display multiple readings without interrupting the flow of the main article when that additional information has particular relevance. The chemistry folks also have a nice approach. There are clear, official standards which they typically adhere to but they provide for numerous exceptions following prevailing use by chemists and non-chemists where appropriate.

    Regarding sources, academic sources that are clearly good sources of information on the topic may not be the best reflection of common usage. I would be inclined to give more weight to predominant usage in widely circulated publications for a general audience in determine which name to use for an article.

    While it may not be possible to achieve uniformity across all English Wikipedia articles, consistency within an article should be a priority. Even here, there may be exceptions, but in general an article should not switch back and forth between the two systems. Editors wanting to update an existing article should generally adhere to the usage currently in place in said article. However, there may be cases where it's appropriate to use use certain common names in different systems within the same article. MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫— talk 06:15, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • For general reader utility, I would suggest we standardize on the most-used modern system, RR, but for topics pertaining to the applicable time range also provide MR, both in the lead and as a redirect, as needed, unless by chance some particular subject has no MR representation in the source material (e.g. a recent discovery from an earlier era, and only written about so far in RR sources). This is markedly similar to issues with Chinese rendering. For cases where a subject is overwhelmingly known by the MR version, then use that as the article title per WP:COMMONNAME. This would also be consistent with our treatment of Chinese. This is distinct from issues like Scottish Gaelic having an early-20th-century diacritic reform; the different versions are barely distinct, and the old style is not used in any modern source material, so need only exist as redirects and not be explicitly mentioned in the articles. Here, though, there is continued use of the older MR style, just as with Chinese names Laozi continues to appear in some souce material as Lao Tzu, and so on, and for some cases the older WJ transliteration style still dominates in English, though a faction of WP editors has moved them to "modernized" pinyin or pinyin-based spellings anyway (probably against policy), but even these often are not in full pinyin with the diacritics, those versions just existing as redirects (when people bother making them).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:01, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The Chinese situation is quite different. English-language academic publications on China switched to pinyin in the 1980s, and its use is now near universal for all periods. The same has not happened with English-language academic publications on Korea, especially historical topics, where MR remains the norm. Kanguole 12:55, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you still intend to reformat this? I also don't see a polling section. Symphony Regalia (talk) 00:18, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I meant for this discussion to poll opinions from non-experts. I'm going to develop a more formal argument and propose it in near future. seefooddiet (talk) 00:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm aware this discussion lapsed. I intend to propose the change in near future, maybe in next few weeks. Part of the issue is that it requires a significant amount of research to figure out what flavor of RR we want to use for history topics. I could just make the proposal to use RR in general, then do the research after the proposal is approved, but stll deciding; two discussions risks fatigue. May just end up doing that anyway though. seefooddiet (talk) 20:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Place of birth in people infoboxes (and its common romanization at the time)

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Moved from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Korea
 – seefooddiet (talk) 19:10, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone help provide some clarity on the following questions? (these may be more appropriate to post at the talk for the infobox but I figured I'd try here first)

  • Template:Infobox says to "use the name of the birthplace at the time of birth" in the birthplace parameter. How does this guideline apply to romanization? For example, Busan was commonly romanized as "Pusan" until 2000, when MR was officially replaced with RR. Should the infobox for people born in Busan pre-2000 say "Pusan" instead because that is how it was commonly known at the time?
    • What about people born in the city from 1910 to 1945 under Japanese rule, when the city was officially "Fuzan"?
  • For people born in Seoul under Japanese rule, should the place of birth be "Keijō" (as it was known in Japanese), or "Gyeongseong" (as it was known in Korean)?
  • Similarly, what about people born in Incheon under Japanese rule, should their place of birth be "Jinzen"?

For the record (and just in case I've been mistaken), another very common one I've been correcting is the use of "South Korea" or "North Korea" in the place of birth parameter for people born from 1910 to 1945... I've been replacing it with "Korea, Empire of Japan" which seems to be the most common precedent from what is currently used on articles of high-profile people from the era. RachelTensions (talk) 00:32, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  1. It doesn't apply. Per WP:COMMONNAME, we follow current, not contemporary, romanization practices. We also have WP:KO-CONSISTENT. Thus we should use whatever the article title is, which is "Busan".
  2. For "Korea, Empire of Japan", I've been meaning to open a discussion about this. I'm not sure what to do; it's not straightforward because the legality of the annexation is uncertain. De facto, Korea was a part of the Empire of Japan. But to my knowledge the annexation was made retroactively illegal after the annexation was lifted. "Korea, Empire of Japan" may give too much weight to one position in that debate.
  3. For whether we use Japanese-language names for cities/provinces, we should use the most relevant article title verbatim. For Seoul during that period that'd be Keijō, although that page may need to be moved (see below). Many of the articles that use these Japanese-language names were created by Japan-oriented Wikipedia editors (which is fine; they didn't do anything wrong). However, they unilaterally used Japanese-language names instead of taking into consideration WP:COMMONNAME. To my knowledge nearly all current academic literature calls these places during the colonial period by their Korean names. So they may need to be moved.
    • For the Keijō article, I think there may be a case for renaming it to "Gyeongseong", based on common usage. Very few people know the name "Keijō", but due to Korean dramas (e.g. Gyeongseong Creature) probably a lot of people know "Gyeongseong".
seefooddiet (talk) 00:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification.
Re: point number two, if not "Korea, Empire of Japan", then what? Couldn't be "Korean Empire" because despite the annexation (possibly) being declared retroactively illegal, the empire still ceased to exist. Using just "Korea" probably wouldn't be appropriate either because it referred to the geographical area, not any kingdom/empire/country/nation in specific.
FYI the reason I was asking is because I've been working through that list of 190 or so people who are referred to as just "Korean" in their lead sentence... (I'll provide an update on my progress in that thread a little later). In that trek, I've found that a lot of people born 1910-1945 have "South Korea" in their place of birth parameter despite "South Korea" not existing at the time. RachelTensions (talk) 01:12, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can think of a few alternatives:
1. Japanese Korea
2. Chōsen
3. Colonial Korea
Not sure which one would be best though. -- 00101984hjw (talk) 01:57, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
People born in Korea from 1910–1945 we should just do "Korea, Empire of Japan" for now, for the sake of consistency. Once we reach a decision on what format is best it'll be easy to use WP:AWB to swap everything if needed. A note just in case: for their nationality, we should put whichever Korea they ended up being a citizen of; however there are some edge cases. Some people were primarily notable before the establishment of South Korea, and died soon after the country was established, e.g. Kim Ku. For them, keeping just "Korean" is fine I think.
@00101984hjw Ultimately I think we should rope in people from WP:JAPAN and get their opinions too, I'm not sure we can reach a full solution on our own. Maybe a different thread. seefooddiet (talk) 01:59, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you're referring to the "nationality" parameter in infoboxes, MOS:INFONAT says that "In biographies, a |nationality= field should not be used."
As far as nationality in the lead goes, when the lead just says "Korean" I've been adjusting the wording to fit the country that they've established themselves in post-1945 which I think is a good rule of thumb.
In 99% of the cases it ends up being "South Korean" due to the relative rarity of the articles available on North Korean people... most North Korean bio articles we have are notable, at least in part, because they're North Korean, and therefore the previous editors of the articles made sure to say so in the lead. RachelTensions (talk) 02:18, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I mean for putting their nationality in the lead. For people like Kim Ku, calling him "South Korean" doesn't feel appropriate, considering he only lived for a year after the establishment of the country and was even opposed to its creation for a period of time. You're right that in 99% of cases it will be straightforward, I'm just speaking about the 1% where it isn't. seefooddiet (talk) 02:22, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I think MOS:CITIZEN covers the fringes: if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was such when they became notable. Describing Kim Ku as "South Korean" in the lead is probably not appropriate given his notability was established long before he, at least on paper, became a South Korean citizen, and he died shortly after the country's establishment. RachelTensions (talk) 02:30, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, my questions are answered - I'll continue the clean up using the established precedent and if an alternative to "Korea, Empire of Japan" ends up becoming accepted then we can fix it with AWB after that discussion happens.
I'll also continue using "Keijō" until discussion happens resulting in the article's move to "Gyeongseong", in which case we can also fix with that AWB.
Thanks for your insights! RachelTensions (talk) 02:36, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@RachelTensions just remembered where the guidance was for modern place names, WP:MODERNPLACENAME seefooddiet (talk) 18:43, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Nationality and ethnicity

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Wanted to put this bit about nationality and ethnicity into the MOS to save future debates. Related discussions: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Korea#Wording of dual citizenship in lead sentences, Talk:Krystal Jung/Archive 1#Lead. We recently reached a consensus that, per MOS:ETHNICITY, the ethnic identifier "Korean-American" is generally not appropriate for use in the lead (except for if their ethnicity is relevant to their notability). Instead, we recommend the use of "South Korean and American", instead of "South Korean-American".

@RachelTensions @Geraldo Perez @DragonFury @Paper9oll @Btspurplegalaxy @Evaders99 tagging all participants so that they're aware. seefooddiet (talk) 18:34, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For Korean people from historical states that are unambiguously considered to be Korean (e.g. Silla, Joseon, Goryeo, Baekje, etc), I think it's probably fine to describe them as "Korean".
For states with disputed identities like Goguryeo, I think it may be more appropriate to say "X was a Goguryeo general", unless if you can demonstrate consensus in reliable sources that they are considered "Korean". @00101984hjw I'd appreciate your weighing in on this point. seefooddiet (talk) 19:04, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the wording "unambiguously considered to be Korean" could cause some trouble in the future. I'm sure you're aware of the sheer acrimony Koreans and Chinese have over the Goguryeo and Balhae controversies. These are just my two cents, but I'm concerned that nationalistic (or peculiarly anti-Chinese) Korean readers may blame this decision for Bothsideism.
In that sense... per WP:ETHNICITY... I think it may be more appropriate that we only clarify figures from Goryeo or later as "Korean", and state figures from the Three Kingdoms period (including Unified Silla) and prior as nationals of their corresponding kingdoms. Some reasons why:
1. Korea did not exist as a geographically united state before Unified Silla. According to my brief research about the issue, while Silla, Baekje, and Goguryeo did share similarities and some sense of ethnic homogeneity, the concept of a unified ethnic Korean state did not exist during this period.
2. While Unified Silla did attempt policies to integrate conquered territories and populace ([17]) (according to NamuWiki Silla also propagandized ideas that the three kingdoms were ethnically united as "Samhan" states but unfortunately the source for this is from a book) these policies ultimately failed.
3. Goryeo is where the word "Korea" came from. It was also the first unified Korean state which managed to maintain stability.
But anyways, that was my personal proposal; I'm fine with the original plan. It just feels off to exceptionalize Goguryeo considering the article summary for the state literally says it's Korean. -- 00101984hjw (talk) 20:57, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was going to suggest labelling people from before Sillan unification with the kingdom they came from – it's more informative and involves less back-projection – but extending that to pre-Goryeo also makes sense. Kanguole 21:18, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unified Silla was merely of a period of Silla's history, not a separate nation. Labelling post-unification Sillans separately as "Koreans" feels somewhat idiosyncratic imo. -- 00101984hjw (talk) 21:35, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. Your Goryeo suggestion seems reasonable. I would be opposed to applying it to the Three Kingdoms. Kanguole 22:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that makes sense. We can set the boundary as Goryeo and after. I'll WP:BOLDly add something to the MOS; if anyone disagrees please say so and we can revise it. seefooddiet (talk) 23:33, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Be careful that "North Korean" is used when appropriate when making changes. Geraldo Perez (talk) 19:22, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Family trees

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Moved from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Korea
 – seefooddiet (talk) 20:49, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Almost every article on a royal figure from the Joseon dynasty has a long, unreferenced, overly excessive family section consisting of a bullet list of every relative, ancestor, and offspring. These most likely originate from a direct translation from the kowiki article. I would be delighted if there was a better way to format them, but currently it seems like these lists are just another chronic case of WP:TOOMUCH. I believe such detailed lists would find little use for readers outside of East Asia.

I suggest we delete all of these lists and replace them with more content on the infobox or a simple {{ahnentafel}}. If no one opposes this, I will go ahead and start imposing WP:BOLD on all of them. -- 00101984hjw (talk) 22:52, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A few months ago I pruned probably over a hundred of these trees. I pruned them to just nuclear families: father, mother, siblings, children. I wasn't 100% thorough though; there may be trees that still have more than that. If you spot any, at the bare minimum they should be pruned to just the nuclear family.
I'm conflicted on total deletion. On the one hand, they're unreferenced. But nuclear families often aren't too much information for personal life sections. While I'm skeptical that some of these will ever be sourced at the current rate (many have been unsourced for 10+ years), I think these nuclear family trees are minimally harmful and somewhat useful for people. seefooddiet (talk) 00:22, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just moved this discussion over from WT:KOREA. I'm going to add something to the MOS to discourage this practice, so that it's easier to cite something instead of explaining it each time. seefooddiet (talk) 20:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced hanja epidemic

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Moved from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Korea
 – seefooddiet (talk) 22:43, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Am I off base or does there seem to be a lot of unsourced hanja in BLPs? I just clicked through about 100 articles and of the articles that had Hanja name in the infobox, only one of them was sourced. For some names there could be hundreds of different combinations... surely this should be sourced in every instance. Are people just guessing?

I find it hard to believe we have a reliable source for most of these... where are people pulling these from? RachelTensions (talk) 04:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's not great but since it's generally minimally harmful it doesn't bother me so much in comparison to other issues on the WikiProject. For comparison, plenty of non-Korean BLPs have unsourced birth dates. For articles with higher page views I think we could make more of an effort to source the Hanja. seefooddiet (talk) 07:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm wondering if sources even exist for a lot of them... In many instances (especially for younger people), unless someone has stated somewhere what their Hanja are, I'm not sure where that information would be published reliably. RachelTensions (talk) 15:33, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure; I have seen celebrities disclose it (sometimes in their autograph or on TV when introducing themselves). Some, even if they don't directly give the Hanja, give enough info abt the meaning of their names to allow for figuring out what Hanja they use.
We do need to be mindful about MOS:HANJAHANZI though; this has happened a number of times that I know of on enwiki seefooddiet (talk) 17:20, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For whatever reason, it is very common for non-English names everywhere to be unsourced. As seefooddiet says, not great, but not considered a significant problem. Sometimes people guess, sometimes someone might know and not think it needs a source. CMD (talk) 08:31, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am pretty sure that a lot of hanja names on Wikipedia are actually from Chinese-language sources, which are known to "invent" Chinese-character forms for native Korean names and unknown hanja names.
I sometimes remove Chinese-character forms that are clearly from Chinese-language sources (examples: #1, #2), but I am quite sure that there are lots of undetected ones. 172.56.232.61 (talk) 03:25, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have a feeling a vast majority of them are either completely made up by people just looking for something to put in the empty "hanja" parameter, or pulled from Chinese sources that invent their own.
What are the chances that people who use completely fabricated stage names like Baekho (singer), Cha Eun-woo or Eunhyuk even have hanja versions of those names in the first place? RachelTensions (talk) 03:52, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unless a person stated what the hanja for their name is, any hanja for a name should be considered unreliable. This includes stage names. 172.56.232.61 (talk) 04:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fwiw I think people generally take these Chinese characters from other language Wikipedias or from Namuwiki.
  • For Baekho, the only mention of those Chinese characters on his namuwiki page is from a Taiwanese interview on YouTube. It's not clear from there whether he gave the video makers his Chinese characters or if they made them up.
  • For Cha, that hanja is present on his Namuwiki article, with no real source for it.
  • Eunhyuk's Hanja on the Chinese Wikipedia is sourced to this Chinese-language page.
So at least 2/3 of those examples probably implicitly came from Chinese-language sources lol... unreliable per MOS:HANJAHANZI.
I agree we should treat unsourced Hanja with skepticism. I think we should allow tagging unsourced Hanja as citation needed, and sometimes deleting them. Mass deletion I think would be inappropriate, as some of these names are probably correct and these are minimally harmful. seefooddiet (talk) 04:19, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is there some (unspoken?) rule about not using {{citation needed}} tags in infoboxes? RachelTensions (talk) 04:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I just worded it weirdly. I meant "We should handle this by tagging with CN in most cases, although deletion may still be acceptable" seefooddiet (talk) 04:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And then there's Taeyeon, who, according to her infobox, uses "金泰耎" as hanja for "Kim Tae-yeon" but inexplicably uses the entirely different hanja "太妍" for just "Taeyeon"... RachelTensions (talk) 15:25, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
namuwiki shows yet another set of hanja and says that 太妍 is the Chinese-language transcription. Think deletion in these scenarios is ok seefooddiet (talk) 19:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll just tag it and see what happens, if it's still nonsense in a few days I'll take it out RachelTensions (talk) 19:14, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just moved this over from WT:KOREA; I'm going to reword the MOS to encourage the sourcing of Hanja. seefooddiet (talk) 22:44, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was notified on my user page (thank you! I never see these discussions). Unsure how much of an epidemic it is as I mainly see researcher pages these days and not more widely popular figures like singers or actors. I have a few times seen some really weird characters appearing under hanja, which clearly came from a Chinese language spelling and not their actual hanja. I would presume all or a significant amount of hanja appearing by stagename would be incorrect as younger generations care less and less about hanja than in the past. I would be surprised if artists spend the time and effort to make hanja for their stagename as it will never be see or used by...much of anyone. Is there something we can add to the code next to hanja so it won't appear on lists like this (https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_articles_needing_hanja)? Mass deleting of existing hanja on pages would, in my view, cause more problems than it solves. Due to the kind of content I work on (these days mainly scientists and researchers as their contents don't get as much focus), I usually add hanja when I see it on some award posting (award website, press release, news article). I will occasionally find it on their Korean Wiki page and move it over and I typically add a note of such in the edit summary. I never use Namuwiki as Korean friends in years past mentioned contents are often tongue in cheek (comedy) so I wouldn't trust Namuwiki for that reason alone. If my information on that website is incorrect, especially as a lot of time as passed and I wouldn't be surprised if my information is out of date, please let me know. Considering the discussion here, I'll get in the habit of adding a citation for when I add hanja in the future. ₪RicknAsia₪ 05:34, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Category:Wikipedia articles needing hanja: I actually once proposed that personal names not be added to that category (see here), but someone opposed. 172.56.232.253 (talk) 03:39, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One interesting case I recently noticed: the Kim So-hyun article currently gives 金所泫 as her hanja name, even though one of the cited sources in that article is an interview in which she directly gave her hanja name which is different from that (see Kim So-hyun#cite note-tenasia-1). 172.56.232.253 (talk) 03:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably one of the only instances where someone under the age of 30 has explicitly stated their hanja name in a reliable source and someone still decided to just wing it and make it up... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
金所泫 seems to be what is used in Chinese sources, it's how it's written on Chinese wikipedia etc. RachelTensions (talk) 03:45, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In some cases, people don't even bother to check the directly cited source.

  • The Son Na-eun article currently gives 孫娜恩 with a reference right next to it, but that reference actually gives 孫나은.
  • The Bang Min-ah article currently gives 方珉雅 with a reference right next to it, but that reference actually gives 方珉娥.
    1. The change from 方珉娥 to 方珉雅 was made at 07:58, 2 October 2017.
    2. The cited page was alive as of 16:57:13 of that day (see this)
      • That page has been moved to here. Click on the second image right below "입력 : 2010.11.23 20:48" and you will see 方珉娥.
      • So, when the change from 方珉娥 to 方珉雅 was made, it was possible to check that the cited source actually gives 方珉娥.

172.56.232.193 (talk) 19:39, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I fixed both of those. RachelTensions (talk) 20:56, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did update the MOS cos I believe we should not have to cite Hanja for common dictionary definitions like Korean tea ceremony. 2406:3003:2006:26BE:A450:E1A3:8588:F335 (talk) 05:48, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:UNSOURCED, All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution. Even if something is in dictionaries, we shouldn't rely on people's word for that; instead people should cite the dictionaries themselves as evidence that the term is in there.
Tl;dr basically everything except for knowledge that's nearly universal (e.g. the sky is blue) or clearly derivable (e.g. 2 apples and 2 pears -> there were 4 pieces of fruit) needs a ref. seefooddiet (talk) 06:01, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We should not overdo it too. I think for cases like the Hanja for Busan and Gyeongbokgung the phrase Using inline citations, provide reliable, published sources for all:... material whose verifiability is likely to be challenged, applies. Having citiations for all Hanja in all Korea-related articles will look aesthetically unappealing. 2406:3003:2006:26BE:247B:D80E:E6B3:C8DD (talk) 06:18, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in mind this rule is really unlikely to be fully enforced. Probably tens of thousands of pages use Hanja, and our WikiProject has bigger priorities than sourcing all these things at the moment imo.
Also I don't think it'd look unappealing; it's just a ref. seefooddiet (talk) 06:57, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you don't intend for a rule to be fully enforced, maybe you should just specify the part that you really mean. Kanguole 10:05, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I intend for it to be enforced, offering the user a de facto compromise seefooddiet (talk) 13:53, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We don't really need to specifically call out that certain things don't need to be sourced. What we could do is call out that hanja for people's names especially needs to be sourced. RachelTensions (talk) 07:44, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Still weighing what to do. I think sourcing all Hanja is/should be mandatory per overall Wikipedia guidelines. Also, even for non name terms, the issues relating to other Sinosphere country Chinese characters apply, which adds to need for sourcing.
We could highlight separately that it's especially needed for people names, but if it's mandatory everywhere idk if we need to highlight? seefooddiet (talk) 15:47, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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