Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 August 19

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Surnames

Been musing this recently.... how many "new" surnames are created these days? I don't know how this became a pub conversation, but the general consesus is that no new surnames bar double-barrelling are created, so 21st Century equivilants to "Thatcher" or "Farmer" or the like will not come to exist. So...is this the case? Other than surnames created by marriage or divorce, are any new family names around...?

doktorb _words^deeds 15:13, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I know several couples (mostly lesbian, one hetero) who adopted new, invented names when they had kids. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if this was a mini-trend; it's one solution to the problem of how to give everyone in a family the same surname in a post-women's movement context (the other is combining names, of course). There is also the problem of merged families, in which mother, father and children might have several names among them. Sometimes it's better to start over. · rodii · 15:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Migration can a source of new surnames. For example, people coming to English-speaking countries may end up with their names being anglicised and significantly altered in the process. I was reading today that George Alagiah's name is pronounced very differently in Sinhalese, but when he came to Britain he eventually just stopped correcting people. Bingo. A new surname is born. Mattley ^(Chattley) 18:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It might not happen in the 21st century, but something like this could happen (probably pretty unlikely though): The culture becomes such that a persons first name is almost the only one ever used in day to day social conversation. Then the government and buisinesses phase out using names in favor of identifying people by ID numbers such as Social Security. So in everday life the last name isn't used because it's seen as too formal (or something like that), and in bureaucratic life the last name isn't used because names aren't used at all. So over a couple generations families stop using and end up forgetting their last names. Then people would start reffering to the various "Freds" they know as "Fred the Accountant," "Fred the McDonalds Manager," etc.

If a guy named John is running for President he might become known as "John the Candidate," and if he wins he might become known as "John the President." If two guys named John run against each other, one might be "John the Coloradan" and the other "John the Virginian" in the public eye. If John the President has a son Carl, he might become known as "John's son Carl" or "Carl the President's Son." And if Carl becomes known as a communist, some might call him "Carl Marx" for ironic effect... Then all these various clarifications of which person is being talked about could become last names... Linguofreak 00:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If Anurag Dikshit had changed his surname to, well, just about anything else at all, I don't think anybody would have minded. :--) JackofOz 05:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

An instance I personally know of is a couple marrying, each keeping his and her own names, and giving the children a combined name. Not a hyphenated name, but a new surname containing parts of each parent's name. (Boys get the father's part first, girls the mother's.) For example, the children of Mr. Bradshaw and Ms. Pennington would be named Bradington (boys) and Pennshaw (girls). — Michael J 17:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That can get dangerous. I knew a couple where the husband was named Fisher and the wife Lockhead. They once got a letter jokingly addressed to Mr. & Mrs. Fishhead, but I bet their children were glad they didn't actually name them that. User:Angr 14:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Country names

Just wondering. Why do names of people stay the same when said in other languages, but names of countries change? For example, English speakers still say Alberto Calderón, Wilhelm Röntgen and Miguel Indurain (not Albert, William or Michael). But we translate Italia to Italy, Deutschland to Germany, and España to Spain. I don't understand why there is a distinction. — Michael J 17:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Because there are far more personal names than country names: it wouldn't be practical to have standard translations for every possible name. Cities are an interesting in-between case: well-known cities (eg Moscow) have English versions; less well-known ones (Yaroslavl) don't. Henry ^Flower 17:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In part, this changed over the last two centuries or so. Translating given names used to be common: William Shakespeare was Wilhelm Shakespeare in German until the 19th century; Iosif Stalin is in English still best known under the translation: Joseph Stalin. Today, it's only done with historical rulers (Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor instead of Karl V. oder Carlos V; Henry II of France instead of Henri), people from ancient Rome and Greece (Livy instead of Livius), and sometimes with people from countries with other writing systems (Peter Tchaikovsky instead of Pyotr Tchaikovsky). Besides the practical issue Henry mentioned, another reason for this is that spellings of names have become fashionable. People used to consider Karl, Carlos, Charles, Charlie, Carlo, Carl... all the same name and spell it in whatever way they were used to -- these days people are offended if one mistakenly spells them "Carl" when their name is "Karl". Apparently an effect of excessive elementary school spelling education... Chl 18:59, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's not quite true they stay the same. For transliterations from other alphabets you have English Lenin versus French Lénine. We have Osama bin Laden and Usama bin Ladin. We used to have Mao Tse Tung and now Mao Zedong. And for popes, like Pope John Paul II, we have Giovanni Paolo II in Italian and Johannes Paul II. in German. --Lambiam ^Talk 19:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We usually have a name for non-anglophone countries which is different to that they call their country. Famous people often have different names in other languages (I see Georges Bush in TV5 teletext, for instance), usually because there's a direct equivalent for that name in that language (Guillermo Shakespeare sometimes appears in Spanish), the original name is hard to pronounce for the foreign speaker, or because it's transliterated from a different alphabet. It's just how it is. - --THE GREAT GAVINI {T|C|#} 19:51, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It also depends on the country, Marcus Antonius was Marcus Antonius when I learnt Roman history (and Latin), but apparently it's Marc Antony in the United Kingdom. Oh! And "Rome" also taught me everyone on this planet has always spoken English! Evilbu 22:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mark Antony, actually; that dates back to Shakespeare. Personally I like to use cognates where they exist; it removes one barrier to familiarity. EdC 23:19, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, names change over time; sometimes English preserves an earlier name. (Cologne/Köln, for example.) EdC 23:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Marello

What does the name Marello means ?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.96.250.118 (talk • contribs)

What language is it? Spanish? Italian? 惑乱分からん 20:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's common among Italians, and it might have something to do with mare (sea). That's my guess. -- THE GREAT GAVINI {T|C|#} 15:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But Mario is just a male from of Maria. Could Marello be derived from Mario? --Kjoonlee 15:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oops. Google seems to say Marello is indeed related to mare. --Kjoonlee 16:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Meaning of name

What is the meaning of the arabic girls name hawa?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.106.55.248 (talk • contribs)

Eve, as in Adam and Eve. --Lambiam ^Talk 23:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eve is only the English version of the name, it is not the meaning.

The name means "Life" or "Living One", it is explained in the Wikipedia article. However, I don't think that's the primary reason why the name is chosen by parents, today. 惑乱分からん 13:02, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]