User talk:JarrahTree/Archive 21

"WikiLand"

It is still an incubator WikiProject. I want to gather some more people before we go "live". --Evan^{(Salad dressing is the milk of the infidel!)} 12:05, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Indonesian architecture

See its talk page. There is heaps more work to do. There are incomplete section. The first two section still need work to broaden them. Length is probably good. I will trying to track down pics. if you have any... --Merbabu 13:45, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks!

Thanks for the award :) I'm gradually trying to convert all the WA LGAs across, and have sort of self-imposed a minimum standard where every one has a completed infobox and a format - using Shire of Wandering as a base. Where more info is already available in the prose I've kept it in the introductory section. (As you can see I got my fingers burnt on the two offshore ones though :P got a bit ahead of myself) Orderinchaos78 ^(t|c) 10:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Indonesia Newsletter

The project so far... Last week, two more members have joined the project, and really boost the progress of articles editing. Danny Yee and Lestari, welcome to the project, hopefully you will enjoy your stay. So, we officially have got 26 members! More than 440 articles have been tagged with the WikiProject Indonesia template, well done to all editors who have contributed this far. Also, while copy-editing is a very useful thing to do, researching and expanding the article, or maybe one or two sections would be extremely useful, because it is the goal of the collaboration, expanding and getting a good article status. What's new? Several ways to increase the interactions between editors have been proposed. For now, the best solution would be the IRC Channel just for WikiProject Indonesia. Please go to #wikipedia-id if you have had experiences with IRC Channels. Or read the instructions at Wikipedia:IRC. For people who choose not to receive this newsletter, please add your name to this list. Instead of receiving this newsletter, the bot will only send you the link to a particular newsletter.

Articles improvements We have got another Good Article nomination! Congratulations to all editors, especially Indon, who have improved it significantly, maybe you can give six barnstars. So, with the nomination, we officially have had four good articles. Hopefully we can get plenty good articles in the future, or even featured articles. The last collaboration was not a huge success, the Pulau Dewata is still a "start" article and has not improved much. However, seems like the collaboration spirit is back and Java has improved gradually, thanks to all editors. Collaboration Last week's collaboration: Bali Current collaboration: Communications in Indonesia Help choosing the next article for next fortnight's collaboration. Many thanks to MartinBotII, a state-of-the-art Martinp23's bot for delivering the newsletter

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Compass

Yes, I saw almost all of it. Excellent. Not least because I am married to a Wong Jowo protestant (devout but tolerant, feminist and modern in her outlook), it is heartening to see such stories coming out of Indonesia - although I am waiting in trepedation for part II next week. Why? Did you see it?--Merbabu 02:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

PS - i saw your comments on Michaels page. I think at least some should be put on the article page, and you should also incoporate some of them into the main article - at least allude to the intricacies. If people don't like it, well, I think it is better to thrash out a compromise with them than not have anything there. I would certainly pay attention to any additions you would make and any controversies. I would am more positive about their acceptance than you appear to be on Michael's page. I think it is VITAL info for an article on INdonesian religion. articles that solely list proportions of religion and their history are pretty dull. --Merbabu 02:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

My apologies, this response turned out to be quite long. It is also very stream of concious. It was (I think) Winston Churchill who said "I didn't have time to write you a short letter, so I have given you a long one"

Well, yes the story was niave in some aspects, but then again so is the audience (ie, Australians) towards the subject. Most just think Indonesia means Islamic means terrorism and hate for the west. You have to remember that most people (99%) don't have any where near the knowledge that you have on Indonesia and I think the story was appropriately targetted with its style. Actually, I find Dogue quite compelling in her style which is equally as important as content - in some ways she plays the part of the viewer with their naivity (sp?) but has that compelled interest that works to keep the viewers' interest. Yes, it is good to see that it's not the 60minutes simplified Indonesia-bashing, but we cannot expect it to be a PhD student's thesis either. Yes, i remember listening to the soundtrack at the end - lol.

As for the broader question of depth vs. appeal (which you also mention on the Indonesian architecture article), in my opinion to either go down the track of simplifed but broad appeal, or the other extreme of exoteric depth, are both relatively easy to do when compared to successfully doing BOTH. Yes, broad encyclopedic articles do encourage simplification because they are aimed at people who know nothing about certain topics - that is the appeal and indeed basic and fundamental requirement of any encyclopedia (or equivalent). There is nothing wrong with trying to get broad appeal whether it is politics, music, architecture, wikipedia, etc - in fact, it can be vital. THe problem is when broad appeal becomes an excuse for "dumbing down". I think it is a real challenge, and a vital one, to try and achieve broad appeal and reach a higher standard. Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be hinting that wikipedia can't really discuss topics in depth and must remain at a simple level - i disagree and think that its real challenge should be to do both - broad and deep. Yes, that is hard.

How does this apply for an encyclopedia? Take the Indonesian architecture article which is in its very early stages and what is there now is just a quick scrap that probably needs re-writing - i posted it "early" in the hope that others would contribute - hint, hint. Anyway, perhaps each topic section of that article (and every wikipedia article) should have 4 or 5 paragraphs of 4 or 5 sentences. The first paragraph is completly introductory, for the dummies so to speak. As you move through it gets more detailed, esoteric and alludes to the greater depth to links for the more detailed articles. These will one day hopefully include articles on the tongkanan, the omo sebua etc that are not yet discussed in anywhere near the detail they deserve.

Broad, dumb-downed appeal is the easiest and most basic, in-depth analysis is a big improvement, but can often reduce the broad appeal. To have both, shows brilliance not often achieved. Hope you can help achieving it with the Indo-related articles. The indo articles have a huge problem in that there is a great lack of editors who actually expand the information (the few that do never reference, but that is a seperate problem). I can't talk either. I am always copyediting other stuff or bashing vandals or POV on Australia Idol (I hate the show, i just can't help smacking down idiotic teen age writing). There needs to be a big effort from the likes of you, me, Michael, Indon and others to start adding information, rather than just copy-editing over and over. I am as bad as anyone in this regard. Yes, it is harder, but it is the only way to progress. So stop telling us about these boxes you have, go and unpack them instead, and getting that info in!! lol --Merbabu 02:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I just reverted some info on the 1998 riots from Indonesia - i think it was a fair revert. Given that this is 1 article to cover ALL Indonesia, i think it already gives fair treatment to the issue, and the reverted info was inconsistent with the rest of the article. --Merbabu 04:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The number of volcanoes

Well, I can't verify the source. I assumed previous user has the source. If you can check the source, then you can revise the number. — Indon (reply) — 14:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Variations

Hello SatuSuro, of course it is still relevant. Bernhofer is a noted scientist. You could also mention Uhlenbeck. I think these two are certainly worth mentioning. Meursault2004 15:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes as a matter of facts last week I assisted a class. The class had to read Ron Hatley's article! This article is a good one. Thank you! Meursault2004 15:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Fairbridge

Thanks - most of it is a copy from Serle's public domain DAB but I have reworked it and added quite a bit extra from Ruby's book. Apparently one of the children (the last I believe) - Rhodes Fairbridge was a geologist or palaeontologist or some such thing of some note. Would you happen to know? — Moondyne 00:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Barbara was the eldest. I'd read somewhere that Ruby and the 4 children returned to England after Kingsley died in 1924. Maybe only Barbara came back. — Moondyne 02:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

This really should be offline - she's in an aged care facility not far ffrom here - I have never talked to her about the family...will send an email later about all this. I do have the books about/by if that's any help - I still owe you lunch!!!SatuSuro 02:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Well Barbara was born in Pinjarra in what must have been born about 1912 or 13, just prior to the first boys arriving. That makes her 94'ish if my maths are correct - wow!. Daisy Bates apparently cared for Ruby in the late stages of her pregnancy. So sorry to hear about Rica - she is 98 I just read. For some reason I thought she was much younger. — Moondyne 02:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Kalgoorlie

No problems, I didn't know it was a minor edit war. My pet peeve is just when people plonk unremarkable facts at the end of paragraphs like that with no source. Usually they turn out to be wrong so I remove them without prejudice. As for life ... I've finally graduated high school and just have a couple of TEE exams to go so I might finally find out what the real world is like! I'm going up to Coral Bay soon so that'll be interesting. Graham87 10:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Hpmh!

It read well the way you wrote, with so many comings and goings its been hectic lately. short answer yes, detail on email. Gnangarra 04:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Fairbridges

What've you got? (warning: not much spare time at the moment) — Moondyne 05:07, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Yujinkitagawa

Which one is aneh? I think it is true that indonesian is ~70% water ( I don't know why it was 4.85 before). Regarding Chinese population, 1 million seemed to be under-reported. There are millions of them> Indonesian wikipedia reported 10 million. Indonesia declared independence in 17 August 1945, but the dutch didn't recognize it until 27 Dec 1949 after 4 years of revolutionary war. I think this should not be included in the infobox, but i could be wrong. The rest of his edits was only wikifying and spell-check. --Nielswik_(talk) 08:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Murchison River (Western Australia)

You just edited my oldest article! Other than page moves and vandalism, that article had sat there unmodified (and probably unread) since March 2005. Now I have to figure out what my new oldest article is! Hesperian 13:01, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Record

Nah, not even close. I see User:Blnguyen has 45 and I'm sure there's others that've done more than that. — Moondyne 15:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Mount Tambora is on FAC

I've submitted at WP:FAC. Please chime in there ;-) — Indon (reply) — 16:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

WAGRC

I was trawling recent changes and noticed that you just created this, have you seen this site http://www.sro.wa.gov.au/collection/railway.asp Gnangarra 06:12, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

so many differing names for WAGR [1]

gunzberg is listed as a source for my info so it does over lap, alls fine I'll keep working the art the next stages is wlakaway to geraldton and link to northern line. from perth. Gnangarra 07:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

getting complicated this northern line, a google search show early joondalup line documents referrinto a northern line as well. Edward Keane is a definate person of interest besides the Northern line, he was an MP for Geraldton and Perth, mayor of perth, involved in construction of canning timber mills and zig zag railways, victoria resivoir, and direct of perths 1st water supply company, that was before lunch after lunch he constructed york-beverley line and bayswater-belmont line. just for fun he took over the guildford-chidlow wells section when they started having problems there. Beginning to think that CY had a very exceptional person available no wonder he achieved so much, be interesting to find out what the working relationship was like. Gnangarra 12:28, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

nice link I can see a new article coming shortly, mumble mumble mumble I was in Peppi grove right near the fresh water yatch club with camera this afternoon. Gnangarra 12:43, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Sandstone would need a map I can remember the line north to cue and west to yalgoo but cant place a line east to sandstone, thinking that it may have been cue as there was the bigbell branch as well, that sandstone may have been a continuation because Nannine and meeka had to lobby for the line to brought up from cue they didnt get it until 10 later. Nanine cease as a town within about 5 years of the line getting there. Gnangarra 13:14, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Also theres an old east/west crossing of the main road just south of the town. Gnangarra

forget above this site has time tables MM-sandstone dep mm 1401 arr S.stone 1756 (4 hours for what about 100-150k must have been a fun journey. http://www.aattc.org.au/Times%20June%202000W.pdf fromthe 1920 also all other lines

Fairlie

Sorry I don't. I almost got my hands on the standard text on Fairlies but some other bugger got to it before me. :-( The Qld fairlie is well covered in "Crimson Giants", but there is nothing there on the WA Fairlie. --Michael Johnson 06:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Well between user:Gnangarra and self I am sure we will eventually find something - usually its just the one photo and thats it, but you never know SatuSuro 06:20, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply re Swanbourne

No worries, will be fixing shortly. I was trying to get all the western suburbs ones up to a sort of minimum stub level - I'm hoping to head towards a reduced version of what's at Duncraig, Western Australia with the politics sections. Orderinchaos78 ^(t|c) 15:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey it's fine :) BTW Swanbourne PS seems to still exist but just have moved site in 2001 (a la [2]) If the eddept's frequently-breaking site would behave we could check for sure. I will put it on my list of things to check - thanks for bringing it to my attention. Orderinchaos78 ^(t|c) 15:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of sheer curiosity and freakishness, take a gander at Winthrop, Western Australia. That has got to be one of the most bizarre wiki's I've seen for a while. :| Must admit I got a good laugh at the, um, attention to detail. Orderinchaos78 ^(t|c) 16:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

My thinking too. I just hope we don't end up with a revert war with the person who created the article, although he does seem to be away long-term, at least. Orderinchaos78 ^(t|c) 05:30, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Haha... it's a long way from my urban prowling zone in the northern suburbs... :) I'm not doing too much with the articles over there, just really standardising the basic format so the infobox is there and the header and footer provide the necessary links and info. As for Mundaring, yeah, I eventually figured out that one. The reason for all the editing is actually to get the local councils disambiguated, and I keep getting distracted by little rabbit trails, as one does. Orderinchaos78 ^(t|c) 08:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

1965-1967

Yeah, i don't know how to handle it either. I am not reading all that stuff. It is clear he is not getting the intetion of the article and doesn't know much about it. He can only see it from a narrow one-dimensional viewpoint and misses much of the subtle games that accompanied the violence. I think the article is clear right? Who should i ask to monitor it? Maybe you can keep an eye on it too, even step in, cos most of these things end up being painted as personal disputes and someone who knows nothing about the topic forces a resolution that doesn't reflect the facts. --Merbabu 01:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Sarah is good. But i gotta go now. In the meantime, what do you think of the issue? I know a bit, but I am no Indonesian history academic. Am i on the right track from my posts? It'd be nice to know early if I was getting it wrong but i think i am right. This was the anon editor who initially made the long-winded edit about CIA involvement a few days back and reverted by Drew from memory. --Merbabu 01:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

thx

thx, yes i might stay away frm that talk page. i've applied for sock, so i'm hopping someone else will sort him out for us. tho hesp, is having a go. btw the borges is't properly sourced (oops), appropriately enough it's from a book about someone-else who quoted it in their work...  → bsnowball  14:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Indonesian architecture

The traditional housing section was fun cos there were too many examples from all over Indonesia to cite. But, as I research the religious and colonial sections, I realise a Java focus would have been better. Oh, well - it's still a good place to start. I am sure Indonesian architecture is esoteric enough for most punters! --Merbabu 14:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Re the Candi article it is very good. (OK, i would have done it differently - ha, ha). I agree, the detailed ones are more interesting (and not so awkward)but I think the "mother article" is an important first step. We can then split and divide in a drill down. I have a few more ideas for articles to include. I will post them soon. (ie, most of those rumah adat i would like to see as a seperate article - Michael's already got Rumah gadang coming along. My aim is to get all that I can down in the Indo article, then look to try and get a theme going through it. Now, when are we going to see sources, and photos coming out of these legendary boxes of yours? ;-) --Merbabu 14:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Candi article

I don't plan to make any further changes, I just put it up as a stub. I'll leave it to the Javanists - you, Merbabu, and Indon (?) - to rewrite and complete as necessary ;-) Back to fixing up the rumah gadang article for me... (Caniago 15:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC))

Winthrop

I've just read through your talk page and found a mention of Winthrop. I've tried to clean it up so it's a bit more, um, encyclopedic. I didn't even know we had any major gravel roads in Perth - or was the author just joking? Anyway I can't wait for the fast food stores Gecko Treat or Red Gecko to suddenly spring up and offer some gecko chicken. I'm also wondering what would happen if the petrol stations between Winthrop and Freo station stopped selling water - hasn't anyone ever heard of a bicycle? Graham87 06:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at this diff. Looks like all the joking and silliness came from just one person at 2:22AM on a Saturday morning. The revision before that was reasonable but did need cleanup. And after all that, no mention of Winthrop Hall? Graham87 07:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

On looking at that diff there was things in there that even *I* missed (eg the surreptitious addition of Hale School?) As I said on Graham's talk page, once I get these modifications all going, I will have all the articles on my watch list which I check any time I remember (usually more than once per session). Orderinchaos78 ^(t|c) 09:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

No worries

Not an issue, it was nice relief while I watch B.integrifolia under the rigours of FA. Not that I enjoy culling other peoples efforts. Gnangarra 07:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

oz po

prob. noticed already. forgot to tell you: some wit WAS (somewhat) BOLD & moved the perfomance po per suggestions, but to the wrong name & forgot to fix up or tell anyone. so i finished it off at Australian performance poetry & just got rid of it from the main art (i suppose i could be accused of laziness, but it is unsourced). satisfactory? i'm a bit concerned as i've yet to find my ussual glaringly obious mistake :) & one day i'll rewrite the whole thing more comprehensively...   ⇒ bsnowball  11:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Railway map

Do you mean something like this? — Moondyne 15:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The source [3] doesn't show that particular line (you have to zoom in to display diffeernt features such as rail networks etc). You can then selectively turn off various layers by selecting the 3rd button on the right. I created that map by saving 3 screen dumps and then splicing the 3 images together - v/fiddly. I could add dismantled lines manually I suppose. — Moondyne 15:32, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Archive 21

Northam

Ta muchly for the tipoff! Now incorporated in both relevant articles. Orderinchaos78 08:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Might do that. It was a rabbit trail to begin with - I was disambiguating Cockburn and found that article so did some work on it (kind of like how Mindarie, South Australia came into being...) Orderinchaos78 ^(t|c) 14:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Malcolm

I count five times in 12 days that factual but negative material has been erased from the article without any attempt at discussion. I think semi-protection is warranted. I wonder if there's an oversight page for these matters.... I'll check. Hesperian 11:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Pendopo

I just hate red lines - but I am going to make a new concerted effort to stop making minor changes and vandal control and actually create information - hence i added a new article, rather delete the link. Well, if you have whole pages of info, you better start typing!!! ;-) Oh, can you quote a source for the Japanese removal of railway lines? When you get a chance. --Merbabu 14:43, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Tambora

Not yet. I am trying to gain more people there. — Indon (reply) — 15:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Tinggal 1 yg object, but with a strange objection. :D — Indon (reply) — 15:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Map

I got the map, thanks it's great - I've tidied up the shadowing and marks and it looks quite good. Can you advise the citation/source etc. so I can upload it. Licensing will be {{PD-Australia}} I presume. — Moondyne 00:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Uploaded to Image:Wagroupsettlement.jpg. That was the easy bit :-( — Moondyne 04:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Albany

Thanks for that... The randomness of Wikipedians never ceases to amaze me. :P And yes, I can only imagine. I once managed to read the entire talk page for Northern Ireland (my birthplace)... oh, what fun that was. What I call "word value politics" cranked to high gear. Orderinchaos78 ^(t|c) 02:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment - much appreciated! And yeah, I've moderated/admined on web forums and IRC channels full of excitable teenagers for years, so I got my practice :P Orderinchaos78 ^(t|c) 02:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

IP adding NPOV spamlinks

Hi SatuSuro, All of the edits today from that IP were pushing a particular political agenda. They were also repeatedly linking the website http://tassie.org.au as in "independent" website which is linkspamming. (as well as wrong, it is pushing the same political agenda). They had also been previously warned today (see their talk page) so they had already been told that what they were doing was wrong. I was just following this up with the removal of the inappropriate (NPOV/spam) material that they left behind. -- Chuq 09:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

No problem at all! Federal Group could do with some expansion but it seems ok for now - a few references, some basic information, but nothing really wrong with it. -- Chuq 10:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Kraton

Try click: Karta. :-) I don't know where to link, there is no disambiguation page for it. So I simply removed it. — Indon (reply) — 10:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

It's all right ;-). No need to apology. — Indon (reply) — 10:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Becareful. You might have broken off links to the Karta for Latvian mythology. Some Latvian editors might object that. — Indon (reply) — 10:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

:)

You're handling him well :) Orderinchaos78 ^(t|c) 12:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Exterminate!! Exterminate!! Orderinchaos78 ^(t|c) 12:40, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

NP

No problem cause someones got to keep adding to wikipedia after our eyes sight deteriates to point where glasses wont even lets us see the keyboard or read the screen. Gnangarra 13:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I only went to one and they close the year after I left, always wondered why 8{

BTW the more I read and document problems with the wesley article the more I'm tempted to take it to WP:AFD as it reads like a semi-professional a typical private school advertising broucher. Gnangarra 15:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

yeah it was fine I used similar formats when I've found one thats already edited multiple pages, you trying to scare me away after Hesperians earlier comments today.8} (oh and hehehehehehehehe!) Gnangarra 15:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

we dont have to live with it we just need to find a way to neutralise them. Gnangarra 15:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

2 thoughts at once can I drive the bus? and what if I created a POV story of WC and move the offending section there Gnangarra 15:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)