User talk:Mark Ironie: Difference between revisions
→Buffs Response: grammar error/redundancy error removal of redundancy |
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That said, unless specifically addressed, I haven't spoken to IG or Corbie since the 1-strike-and-you're-out warning you placed in my file. Please respond in due course. [[User:Buffs|Buffs]] ([[User talk:Buffs|talk]]) 18:07, 29 March 2019 (UTC) |
That said, unless specifically addressed, I haven't spoken to IG or Corbie since the 1-strike-and-you're-out warning you placed in my file. Please respond in due course. [[User:Buffs|Buffs]] ([[User talk:Buffs|talk]]) 18:07, 29 March 2019 (UTC) |
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===Moar DARVO=== |
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Hi Mark, |
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Well, Buffs continues to lie about his actions. He's continuing to deny what he said about Natives in the "white supremacy" and "flat earth" diffs:[https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=889619735&oldid=889616863][https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=889628240&oldid=889625189] and is continuing with the gaslighting. Here's a timeline on some of the, er, highlights: |
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Buffs states, falsely, above: "[https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AMark_Ironie&type=revision&diff=890048250&oldid=890007071 That said, unless specifically addressed, I haven't spoken to IG or Corbie since the 1-strike-and-you're-out warning you placed in my file.]" |
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Buffs incivility towards many people really began to cross the line at the Reliable Sources noticeboard. Indigenous girl expressed several times that he was making her very uncomfortable before she outright asked him to never contact her again: [https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=889632421 "As an indigenous person I find the comparison to flat earthers and organized white supremacists to be extremely troubling."] 23:10, 26 March 2019. [https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=889707583 "I do not feel comfortable collaborating with (Buffs) at this point."] 12:37, 27 March 2019. [https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=889738534 "I am not comfortable interacting with you"] 16:51, March 27, 2019. |
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After more disruption at [[Talk:Order of the Arrow]], you gave him: [https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Buffs&diff=prev&oldid=889808404 Only warning: Personal attack directed at a specific editor on Talk:Order of the Arrow.] 02:28, 28 March 2019 |
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[https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk:Order_of_the_Arrow&diff=prev&oldid=889908093 Indigenous girl asks him to leave her alone], "I did not cite this source. I didn't look at the following page until '''yesterday'''...Please do not tag or address me any further. I am uncomfortable interacting with you." 19:11, March 28, 2019 |
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[https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Buffs&diff=next&oldid=889923335 Buffs removes warning] edit summary: "I've read it." 21:09, March 28, 2019 |
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[https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk:Order_of_the_Arrow&diff=prev&oldid=889926920 Buffs ignores her requests and proceeds to address Indigenous girl yet more, wanting to talk about why he makes her uncomfortable.] 21:40, March 28, 2019 |
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And now he does it again, here on this talk page. Following someone to another talk page and saying, "I'm not addressing this to her" and then talking about her, is not a magic formula that stops the harassment. It's just more [[DARVO]]. These are only some of the diffs I could gather, and I haven't included his continuing posts at the RS board and OA Talk, which she is ignoring, but still. There are plenty more, as all of us who've had our time and energy wasted over the past few weeks can attest. I also have diffs for how he's continued to address and be incivil to me, but I think you've seen those. I'll post them if you like. - [[User:CorbieVreccan|<span style="font-family:georgia"><b style="color:#44018F;">Co</b><b style="color: #003878;">rb</b><b style="color: #145073;">ie</b><b style="color: #006E0D">V</b></span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:CorbieVreccan|☊]]</sup> [[WP:SPIDER|☼]] 20:47, 29 March 2019 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:47, 29 March 2019
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4 September 2024 |
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Sorting socks
Things continue to develop on ANI. I imagine other accounts will emerge over the next few days, and longer. We can re-arrange all of the sockdrawer flags once it's sorted. I wouldn't bother till this settles out. Noting for now that the oldest account, so the puppeteer so far, is now:
- Chitt66 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
first edit: 02:15, February 23, 2011. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 05:42, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
And yes, this one is already indeffed. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 05:43, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
- I hate it when there is a long run of edits with socks like these. This one is nasty with so many of the edits introducing factual errors in a multitude of articles over months and years. Ugh. I'll pick this up tomorrow. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 06:14, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
- I'm still looking at some suspects, but I figured I'd update the tags at this point. Chitt is now marked as the puppeteer. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 00:17, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
- So far it seems to be the oldest account. Mark Ironie (talk) 01:17, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
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Sa la k'adita
Thanks for your observation on the Cherokee descent list. My conclusion is that, in a month or so, I'll have to launch a Cherokee syndrome article, since there's entire books written on the subject. Merry Christmas! Yuchitown (talk) 16:52, 25 December 2018 (UTC)Yuchitown
- Since the list has been deleted, I think that is an excellent idea. That would be a much easier article to create and maintain than the list. Although I absolutely understand the premise and basis for the list, I do think it had flaws as a list. A one sentence definition was too little to accurately define it for WP. A Cherokee syndrome article would flesh the concept out more fully. Certainly specific notable people could be included as part of it, with appropriate citations, of course. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 18:35, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
Request for comment regarding Keene
To be clear, no, that source was from above in the talk page. GMGtalk 23:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
- Ah, that makes sense about why it was in that citation list for the quote. I can be slow some days. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 00:15, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
Buffs and incivility
It seems to be continuing. I pinged you. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 21:00, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you. I'm looking at his recent contribs. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 21:26, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Hello. I am currently interacting with Buffs in several different places. I asked him to please not tag me or address me any further and I believe I have stated twice now that I am uncomfortable interacting with him due to degrading comments about Native Americans (comparing ourrespected community members and groups of members to white supremacists and flat earthers because the majority (he says 'fringe') dare to speak out against appropriation, stereotyping and racism. His tone feels threatening, he seems to be baiting anyone who does not hold his point of view and I feel as though he is trying to bully me off of the pedia. I have interacted with individuals with diverse opinions but have never been met with this type of over the top treatment. I have remained civil and have quoted his harmful remarks back to him specifically but he says that it didn't say it that way to similar responses, I have quoted his words back exactly as they were stated. I also do not think it is to the pedia's benefit to have equate a respected author, who happens to be a tribal judge, to flat earth theorists. I do not know how to proceed to get him to leave me alone because asking him certainly doesn't work. I do not enjoy feeling harassed or targeted not do I enjoy seeing him demean respected individuals. Thank you for your attention to this issue.Indigenous girl (talk) 23:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Also, I can not find the civility warning that you gave him or I would have responded there.Indigenous girl (talk) 23:11, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm so sorry about Buffs' actions and words. I'm currently weighing options on the best way to approach the situation. He removed the civility warning I put on his talk page with an edit summary of "I've read it" so that is why it is missing. This is his prerogative. I find it disingenuous but it's his talk page. Please let me know if there are any more disturbing interactions with him. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 05:07, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you very much. Indigenous girl (talk) 12:00, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm so sorry about Buffs' actions and words. I'm currently weighing options on the best way to approach the situation. He removed the civility warning I put on his talk page with an edit summary of "I've read it" so that is why it is missing. This is his prerogative. I find it disingenuous but it's his talk page. Please let me know if there are any more disturbing interactions with him. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 05:07, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
- Also, I can not find the civility warning that you gave him or I would have responded there.Indigenous girl (talk) 23:11, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Hello. I am currently interacting with Buffs in several different places. I asked him to please not tag me or address me any further and I believe I have stated twice now that I am uncomfortable interacting with him due to degrading comments about Native Americans (comparing ourrespected community members and groups of members to white supremacists and flat earthers because the majority (he says 'fringe') dare to speak out against appropriation, stereotyping and racism. His tone feels threatening, he seems to be baiting anyone who does not hold his point of view and I feel as though he is trying to bully me off of the pedia. I have interacted with individuals with diverse opinions but have never been met with this type of over the top treatment. I have remained civil and have quoted his harmful remarks back to him specifically but he says that it didn't say it that way to similar responses, I have quoted his words back exactly as they were stated. I also do not think it is to the pedia's benefit to have equate a respected author, who happens to be a tribal judge, to flat earth theorists. I do not know how to proceed to get him to leave me alone because asking him certainly doesn't work. I do not enjoy feeling harassed or targeted not do I enjoy seeing him demean respected individuals. Thank you for your attention to this issue.Indigenous girl (talk) 23:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
Buffs' Response
The only reason I'm responding here is that I received an alert that I was tagged. I am only going to address the above remarks here. I would respectfully request a response from Mark alone.
- Mark, you're an admin and should know that the removal of a warning is taken as evidence that the warning has been read by the user. Calling it "disingenuous" implies I did something wrong/nefarious and is unnecessarily casting negative aspersions on my actions when none are even implied and such actions are explicitly described by the Wikipedia community as appropriate. Likewise, I don't need an apology from you on my behalf for my actions/words.
- IG's remarks are inaccurate and, yet, continue to be repeated. We are supposed to comment on content, not contributors, and, yet, she continues to take words and phrases out of context in order to demonize me instead of what was actually said. I've VERY clearly explained that, but to no avail. Both remarks were made as illustrations as to the flaws in their given logic, not remarks directed as comparison with the authors. Rather than address the flaws in their logic, they've decided to use false equivalence and make intentionally misleading statements impugning my character. So, in case it isn't clear...
- I do not feel now (nor ever have in the past) said or felt that the authors mentioned were in ANY way equivalent to white supremacists
- I do not feel now (nor ever have in the past) said or felt that the authors mentioned were in ANY way equivalent to flat earthers
- I do not feel now (nor ever have in the past) said or felt that the opinions of the authors should be discounted because "they dare to speak out against appropriation, stereotyping and racism."
Now, I do NOT believe based on the given evidence at the time that such opinions are widely held among Native Americans regarding the given topics. Even the most prominent controversy regarding the Washington Redskins doesn't have a clear majority opposing its usage among Native Americans and it's been frequently researched/polled. I find it highly doubtful that less-publicized issues suddenly attract a large following, much less a majority. I do NOT dispute that activists exist and that some people disagree/oppose usage in these contexts. I only dispute the accuracy of the claim that it's as widespread as IG and Corbie seem to believe. As such, some of these opinions are being given WP:UNDUE weight. BUT, given evidence, I'm willing to change my mind as well!
In the first situation, given the opinions of a single highly-partisan activist, and interview/analysis of the same activist, a single book, and a personal blog with no editorial controls, I'm basically seeing the opinions of 3 people. None of them cite ANY polling data, just their personal outrage. That these individuals/actions are prominent lends credence to the assertion they are notable, but not to the accuracy of their feelings or whether they speak for a WP:fringe group, a small/vocal minority, a sizable minority, or a strong majority with the given sources. The quality of their argument and the evidence are what matters, not solely that that outrage exists.
For reference: what I actually said (sans the inflammatory descriptions) [1] [2] and the (ignored) further explanation: [3]
IG and Corbie (and IG in particular) have both leveled personal insults toward me/disparaged my contributions and continue to falsely claim things I've done via (intentionally?) inaccurate statements. Edits I've made have been undone with snarky remarks and wholesale reversions accomplished with no attempt to make improvements solely because I disagree with their POV (and not because my edits are inaccurate in any way). IG also stated that I have tried to silence people because they oppose stereotypes/racism. This is loaded language which attempts to demonize me by implying that I support racism. In editing, I recognize there are going to be disagreements; that's inevitable. But with all the snarky remarks by both and with no warnings for civility leveled at them, it feels very much like one-sided threats of a block.
Lastly, it seems that "feelings" appear to be ruling the day when it comes to IG. "I asked him to please not tag me or address me any further", but then she continues to address me/my comments. "I'm uncomfortable [because he said something I didn't like]". Talk pages and discussions are not something where you get to dictate who is/isn't involved. The fact that discussion is "uncomfortable" is precisely because she is choosing to be offended and looking for reasons to be offended. These two are framing statements about logic with examples as racist and stereotyping in order to dismiss any/all opinions I have on the subject at hand and marginalize my discussion. If you want to be on Wikipedia and participate in discussions, you do not have a right to not be offended.
That said, unless specifically addressed, I haven't spoken to IG or Corbie since the 1-strike-and-you're-out warning you placed in my file. Please respond in due course. Buffs (talk) 18:07, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
Moar DARVO
Hi Mark,
Well, Buffs continues to lie about his actions. He's continuing to deny what he said about Natives in the "white supremacy" and "flat earth" diffs:[4][5] and is continuing with the gaslighting. Here's a timeline on some of the, er, highlights:
Buffs states, falsely, above: "That said, unless specifically addressed, I haven't spoken to IG or Corbie since the 1-strike-and-you're-out warning you placed in my file."
Buffs incivility towards many people really began to cross the line at the Reliable Sources noticeboard. Indigenous girl expressed several times that he was making her very uncomfortable before she outright asked him to never contact her again: "As an indigenous person I find the comparison to flat earthers and organized white supremacists to be extremely troubling." 23:10, 26 March 2019. "I do not feel comfortable collaborating with (Buffs) at this point." 12:37, 27 March 2019. "I am not comfortable interacting with you" 16:51, March 27, 2019.
After more disruption at Talk:Order of the Arrow, you gave him: Only warning: Personal attack directed at a specific editor on Talk:Order of the Arrow. 02:28, 28 March 2019
Indigenous girl asks him to leave her alone, "I did not cite this source. I didn't look at the following page until yesterday...Please do not tag or address me any further. I am uncomfortable interacting with you." 19:11, March 28, 2019
Buffs removes warning edit summary: "I've read it." 21:09, March 28, 2019
Buffs ignores her requests and proceeds to address Indigenous girl yet more, wanting to talk about why he makes her uncomfortable. 21:40, March 28, 2019
And now he does it again, here on this talk page. Following someone to another talk page and saying, "I'm not addressing this to her" and then talking about her, is not a magic formula that stops the harassment. It's just more DARVO. These are only some of the diffs I could gather, and I haven't included his continuing posts at the RS board and OA Talk, which she is ignoring, but still. There are plenty more, as all of us who've had our time and energy wasted over the past few weeks can attest. I also have diffs for how he's continued to address and be incivil to me, but I think you've seen those. I'll post them if you like. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 20:47, 29 March 2019 (UTC)