User talk:BoonDock/2014/December

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Viva South Africa!!

Thankyou for all your hard work on the SA Army!! Sometimes wonder whether it's the single bright point on the whole continent of Africa!! Buckshot06 (talk) 04:57, 19 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Pleasure. I sometimes think it's getting dimmer every day BoonDock (talk) 08:52, 19 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The situation is serious, yes, but one shouldn't lose hope.. Buckshot06 (talk) 02:45, 21 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The article's just gone over 101kB. Would you have any objection to splitting out Equipment of the South African Army, in line with a whole lot of other Army articles? Buckshot06 (talk) 04:11, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Buckshot06: I am VERY MUCH in favour of that! That's one of the reasons why I hauled the list of bases out. My intention was/is to update that list and then possibly just summarise it in the article and link with a {{main}} link... BoonDock (talk) 05:54, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

SA Medal

Hi. Noticed that you are working on an SA Medal template. Consider putting the effort in to adding the medals to the Template:Post-nominals template Gbawden (talk) 13:59, 20 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Great Call.. What I wanted to do was to allow for a small thumbnail similar to the Flag template. Maybe focus on getting the PostNoms done first. BoonDock (talk) 14:06, 20 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- @Gbawden Ok. Created. See {{Template:Post-nominals/ZAR}} BoonDock (talk) 15:23, 20 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  - Thanks. Will go check it out. Thanks for all the hard work - this has been on my to do list for a while Gbawden (talk) 06:23, 21 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    - No problem. I've had to copy some of the GBR ones across because of South African holders of both GBR and ZAF awards. See Durban Light Infantry for example. Dunno if there's a better solution? BoonDock (talk) 06:36, 21 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Dodger67:@Andre Kritzinger: You guys might be interested in using this Gbawden (talk) 06:32, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Can be useful, thank you! -- André Kritzinger (talk) 15:07, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks! Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:24, 25 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  - Pleasure. I'm still working on a way to display the medal information more consistently. Docs on template creation are particularly frustrating. Something as simple as the #If directive took me half an hour to puzzle out... BoonDock (talk) 06:44, 26 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Medal_Display/ZAR

Gentlemen (@Dodger67:, @Gbawden:, @Andre Kritzinger:) I would like your opinion on the template I created {{Template:Medal_Display}} with ZAR stuff in {{Template:Medal_Display/ZAR}}. I would like to make it more sophisticated, such as allowing a param to turn on or off elements of the display (such as the ribbon) but struggled with it and couldn't get it right. Thanks BoonDock (talk) 16:34, 5 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

School of Armour

You might find this useful - http://152.111.11.6/argief/berigte/volksblad/2006/03/30/OS/26/stskool.html Gbawden (talk) 13:29, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Commander Class Medal (CCM)

This Commander Class Medal (CCM) is a new one for me. Never heard of it before. Do you have any details about it? -- André Kritzinger (talk) 10:41, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. Me too. Only mention is on this page. Some funny results here BoonDock (talk) 11:30, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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A Guide to the SANDF

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=138 Buckshot06 (talk) 19:45, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! BoonDock (talk) 11:59, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Have you got anything further on Regiment Port Natal? If we're to create an 84 Bge article we'll have to find some better refs... Buckshot06 (talk) 04:56, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not yet. I've been trying to get my hands on the new DLI history which I think has something on RPN. I'll ask around and see what I can find in the meantime. Lt Col Alan Hartley was the last OC when it amalgamated, and he emigrated about two years back .. somewhere in ANZAC now.. so maybe closer to you than me :-) BoonDock (talk) 05:15, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well that would be a good start: what was the exact amalgamation date?, and who did they amalgamate with? Buckshot06 (talk) 08:46, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Amalgamated with the DLI. Other stuff will have to confirm. BoonDock (talk) 10:59, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Bardia

Thanks for your message regarding Bardia. Again I'd stress while I'm interested to some degree, I believe you're in a much better position to find good sources, being in SA, and to write them up, well beyond odd 1940s era material like the report you linked which does not reflect modern scholarship about such actions. If you find sources and start writing up of course I'll be happy to help around the edges. Buckshot06 (talk) 11:25, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks! BoonDock (talk) 11:27, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  - It does seem strange that there's no article on the 1942 action. You could consider moving the existing Battle of Bardia to Battle of Bardia (1941) which would at least create a space for a Battle of Bardia (1942) which could be chipped away at. I literally have not looked at the Second World War desert campaigns since I was in primary school; suggest better people to look to for advice might be Anotherclown and Nick-D, who might known something at least about the Australian side of things.... Buckshot06 (talk) 12:09, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Nick-D: & @Anotherclown:. As you can see, Buckshot06 suggested I ask you about this. My original message to him was that there was very little on South Africa's involvement at Bardia, and in fact, unless you know better, it seems if you do a casual search that the current comprehensive article on the Battle of Bardia was the only such. I found [this source] which I thought would make a good start on the creation of a new article. Advice appreciated? Thanks BoonDock (talk) 12:34, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I.S.O. Playfair et al, London: HMSO, 1960 The Mediterranean and Middle East, Volume 3: British Fortunes Reach Their Lowest Ebb, seems to be the appropriate volume of the British official history, though unfortunately it is not on HyperWar. WorldCat, BoonDock, will tell you which libraries it's in in South Africa, or the libraries in Durban if there's no appropriate listings visible. It should have a good account of the battle. Buckshot06 (talk) 22:15, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  - (edit conflict) I'm afraid that this isn't a battle I'm familiar with. If you're looking for sources, the relevant volumes of the New Zealand [1] and Australian [2] official histories are available online, and should provide some outline coverage (though the Australian War Memorial's website isn't loading for me at the moment!). Nick-D (talk) 22:19, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    - Gday. Interesting episode and not one I was actually aware of - good work finding sources so far. Definitely think there needs to be mention of this in the main Battle of Bardia article so I have added something now. That said I think the bulk of the detail about this action should go into a standalone article, so I have only included a very brief paragraph on this. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much in the Australian official histories (from a brief skim this morning) for use in writing an article on the Dec 1941 - Jan 1942 action. One question is what would we call the new article (or indeed the existing one)? The sources you seem to have dug up so far use "Capture of Bardia" for the later episode so I wonder if we move the current article to Battle of Bardia (1941) and create a new one at Capture of Bardia (1942) per WP:COMMONNAME. Thoughts? @Hawkeye7: wrote most of the Battle of Bardia article so it would probably be useful to get his input on this question. Anotherclown (talk) 22:29, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Guys thanks for your input. Much appreciated. I think renaming is a good start. I served in the DLI for 8 years and tto us it was known simply as Bardia. If clarification was needed then battle of. That's why I was a little surprised when I thought to have have a look at the Wikipedia article. It took me a few minutes to figure out that it was a different battle in the same campaign basically a year apart.
One of the Veterans of the battle that I am in contact with was highly disgusted on hearing about it. I'm afraid that the rivalries from that time are still alive and thriving. For that reason, and to avoid any bias, I think the naming suggestion is is a good one, together with a disambiguation page. In addition the 2 Div page needs to be sorted out on this and and a bunch of other issues but for now, the Capture link could be to the 2 Div page Bardia section I'm not too sure yet of all the nuanced tightropes of WP editing having stepped on a few toes inadvertently so will be open to any advice about direction here. Thanks for listening BoonDock (talk) 23:08, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The 1942 battle was part of Operation Crusader and is mentioned in the Aftermath section there. You'll find that "Bardia 1942", which is the official name, has been piped to Operation Crusader in the Battle honours of the British and Imperial Armies. I do have a copy of Playfair (indeed, a full set of the Mediterranean volumes picked up at a Lifeline book fair for a song; I'm like that), but they are on my shelf in Canberra, and I'm away at the moment. There was a South African official history of the Second World War. It was cancelled in 1961 before being completed, but the volume on Operation Crusader was produced: Agar-Hamilton, J. A. I. and L. C. F. Turner. The Sidi Rezegh Battles, 1941. Cape Town: Oxford University Press, 1957. Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:51, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Hawkeye, what do you believe the current state of the historiography on this will be? Would there be much historical argument - and thus later articles in journals - over Bardia (as opposed to Crusader)? Or would it be reflective of the state of the debate to simply eventually get the gist of Playfair, anything from the NZ Div Cav history, and Agar-Hamilton & Turner in to describe what happened? Buckshot06 (talk) 02:16, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have here the DLI history in two volumes. In Vol2 Ch3 & 4, Bardia is discussed. I'll draw on that pretty heavily for the article. I also see reference to "Tungay in The Fighting 'Third (p. 26)" which I'll search for. Also "Simpkins in Rand Light Infantry(Howard B. Timmins, I965)" so I'll try to source that as well. BoonDock (talk) 11:11, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Reading further in Chapter four, it appears that there were two attempts to capture bardia, the first one on 16th/17th December which was unsuccessful. Now I'm wondering about the title for the article again.. It seems as if it should have both attempts documented BoonDock (talk) 11:15, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I would advise sticking with Hawkeye7's suggestion - Capture of Bardia (1942), but include in the initial part of the article the failed attempt on 16/17 December. Buckshot06 (talk) 22:00, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]