User talk:Yintan

Please click here to leave me a message and don't forget to sign it. I will respond on this talk page unless requested otherwise.  Yintan.

Changes I applied to 'Andy Irvine'

Hi WTF I am NOT vandalizing I am just really pissed off that other people delete all my info I put up and don't get into trouble, WTF is wrong with the wiki staff?

Dear Mr Yintan,

Thank you for informing me of the action you took a few minutes ago, of removing the constructive and editorial enhancements I added today to Andy Irvine's entry in Wikipedia. My goal was to make the existing text more precise, more correct and also more complete.

The changes I applied today are all sourced from Andy Irvine's own official web site, which is already mentioned in the existing References section. Since very little of the existing text referred back to any source, I had assumed that the existing reference to Andy's official website would suffice to justify my own changes.

I have been a 'fan' of Andy Irvine for over 40 years and all I was doing is significantly enhance the Wikipedia entry for this outstanding artist; again, all the information I added today is readily available at Andy's own official website. I happen to know a great deal about Andy Irvine and, if you have similar expert knowledge, then you should easily be able to see that the changes I made today significantly enhance the quality of the information that previously existed.

For example, I changed the order in which his instruments appeared (which I don't think requires a source, since they were all already listed in a different order!) and I also created links to Wikipedia's descriptions of some of these instruments (like the harmonica and hurdy gurdy). I corrected the entry for the instrument that was shown as "guitar-bouzouki", because that linked back to the Wikipedia entry for the "Irish bouzouki" which itself made no reference at all to any "guitar-bouzouki"; it was therefore wrong and my correction of "guitar-bodied bouzouki" was much more precise and in conformance with reality.

I also made the earlier text more precise by adding precise dates which you could find in Andy's biographical pages at his official website.

I also added albums that were missing (in the Patrick Street section) and added the section on Marianne Green's album (which Andy produced and on which he played on each track).

Therefore, please *help* me, Mr Yintan, firstly by re-instating all the textual details you have removed and secondly by accepting that the source (Andy's own official website) is already referenced in the Wikepedia entry itself.

One final change I made is to include a link to the YouTube channel I created 2 years ago as a tribute channel to Andy Irvine, which I called 'AndyzFanz'. As you could tell, I located this link right underneath the existing 'China 2 Galway', which was already listed as a 'fan site'.

Thank you for your help; I certainly hope you will accept my credentials and therefore help me by re-instating the text you removed.

With kind regards; Patrick ('pdebee')

Hi Patrick. I restored some of your text, edited some other parts, and removed a few bits that didn't follow WP guidelines. As I explained on your Talk page earlier, WP needs verifyable, third party, sources. Andy's own website is not considered a third party source. Links to fansites are also unwanted (see WP:EL) and people are referred to by their last name. You might like to take a look at WP:TONE, by the way. I know, sounds all a bit harsh, but I hope this helps. Kind regards,  Yintan  00:24, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Dear Yintan; I was in the process of replying to your message last night when I suffered a computer outage, which took most of today (Tuesday 23 July) to fix; so, I apologise for the delay in acknowledging your response to my earlier post to you.

I want to thank you for your trust in my knowledge on the subject of Andy Irvine and his life & works, and also for agreeing to restore most of the prose that I had added in my update yesterday. Please rest assured that I have exacting standards about 'the truth', which is precisely what compelled me to update Andy's Wikipedia entry in the first place: the earlier prose included loose ends, imprecisions and some of the information was either incomplete or too vague. As you know, I re-arranged the instruments sections to make it more realistic in terms of the importance that each of these instruments represents in Andy's repertoire. I would still like to include a sentence or two about Andy's decision to re-learn to play the 6-string guitar in June 2012, since he gave up playing this instrument in the late 1960s, even though he studied classical guitar with Julian Bream when he was a teenager. On his website, he stated last summer that he had located his old Gibson L0 guitar and that he was re-learning to play it in preparation for a new album of Woody Guthrie songs. I therefore feel that it would be fair to add the 'guitar' in th elist of instruments he plays; what is your opinion, please?

I remain quite intrigued by who would qualify as a reliable source for WP's need of a "veryfiable third party". Most of what we know of Andy's career history is thanks to the efforts he invested in documenting his life in the biographical sections of his website. Yes, I agree that he could be deemed too subjective about his own life, but given what we know of his integrity, I have always felt I could trust him. I have met him many times since 1981 and have always been struck by his honesty. Therefore, perhaps it is I who might qualify as a "reliable, third-party source", even though I am the author of a lot of the corrections I applied yesterday.

In any case, I thank you for your advice on studying these WP sections (WP:EL and WP:TONE), which I will certainly do once I have located them and understood what they stand for. Once again, I've never contributed to WP before now, so I am quite a novice about its mores and etiquette. However, I am grateful to you, Yintan, for your advice and guidance and I will definitely aim to comply with the expected standards.

BTW, I hope I am honouring the correct etiquette for indentation, but please forgive me if I got it wrong on this occasion; I know I'll get better with time. ;-)

So, very many thanks once again for your advice and guidance and, also, for being so respectful of the prose I had submitted yesterday; I am grateful to you for honouring my submissions which, as you know, were intended as an improvement to Andy's Wikipedia entry.

With kind regards for now; I hope we can keep in touch.

Until then, please keep well.

Patrick.

Hi Patrick. You can find the WP guidelines I mentioned in my previous message by clicking on them. And here's the link to the reliable sources guideline: WP:RELY. I realize that finding reliable sources can be a pain and that sometimes you simply can't. Very strictly speaking, this means the information should then not go on Wikipedia. Editors like you, no matter how honest you are or how honourable your intentions might be, don't qualify as such. The readers have to be able to verify the information and just taking your (or my) word for it is not enough. Don't take it personally ;-) Again, this sounds a bit harsh but that's how the wiki works. There's more about that at WP:NOTTRUTH. If you need any help with finding WP guidelines or other WP-related stuff, let me know, I'm happy to help. Kind regards,  Yintan  21:37, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

By the way, please sign your posts. See WP:SIGHOW. Cheers,  Yintan  21:40, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Yintan; Many thanks for your prompt and most helpful reply. I do appreciate your patience with me as a new editor and your guidance will greatly assist me in being able to conform fully with the guidelines and etiquette before too long; so, thank you very much for your assistance there. Your explanation on reliable sources makes abundant sense to me and it is only fair that a well-run organisation requires rules that help secure and protect the quality of content. I will do my utmost to honour WP's editorial requirements and to link back to "reliable, third- party sources" whenever I can find them. For example, would the book written by the Irish journalist Leagues O'Toole (The Humours of Planxty) be considered one such? Thank you for letting me know. If so, I will add this book in the Reference section, and also add other publications, such as Andy's songbook (Aiming for the Heart), which includes the song that's named in the text of his WP entry. By the way, I obtained the list of countries in which Andy has toured from the 'Calendar' he keeps at his web site (launched in 2001); whenever he applies a major update, I print the resulting pages and have kept them in a binder over the years. Finally, as an editor, I would never want to add a single detail that Andy himself would disown; therefore, when I created this list of countries where he performed, I reviewed my printed copies of his past 'Calendar' entries, to ensure I was as complete (and truthful!) as possible. Thank you once again for all your help, Yintan. [I'll now attempt my first signature below; fingers crossed! ;-)]

Pdebee (talk) 09:58, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Patrick ('Pdebee').

OK; now I see how it works!

Pdebee (talk) 10:03, 24 July 2013 (UTC) Patrick.

Hello Patrick. Yes, as far as I can tell The Humours of Planxty would be a fine third party source. I noticed it's already used as a source (once) in the References list. You might also find some useful sources in the Planxty article, by the way. A nice example of good sourcing and citing is the article about Andy's former band mate Christy Moore. Take a look at it, it might be helpful and maybe you can use some of the sources mentioned there as well. Here's something else you can source from, perhaps. Or this Guardian article. If I have some more time later, I'll add some sources to the Irvine article to get you going. Cheers,  Yintan  11:12, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello Yintan; Many thanks for your prompt and most helpful reply; that's great! I have already added one ref to O'Toole's book (as a first test on how to use WP's 'ref' feature) so I'll keep going, now that I know I have your blessing. I make a note of your suggestions, including of newspaper articles, although the danger with these is that the references might become orphaned should the papers remove the link to the online article. In any case, I am sure any ref I can add will be an improvement on the little that's already there! Thanks again for your helpful guidance, Yintan. With kind regards; Patrick. Pdebee (talk) 11:26, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I've added a few references to the article and did some minor copy editing. Good luck and happy editing  Yintan  12:25, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello again, Yintan. That is most helpful of you, thank you! As you probably noticed, I first used a basic form of the ref feature, and your example of a standard 'book citation' one was immensely helpful and enabled me to adopt it for the other books I added. By the way, what is the function of the 'name=' tag in the 'cit', please? Yours equates to 'moo'. Also, what creates the superscript letters 'a' and 'b', please? Thank you for letting me know. Returning to the subject of the list of countries where he's performed, would it be acceptable to link back to the 'Calendar' pages at his website? Alternatively, I could append a few words to that paragraph, saying something like: "According to Irvine's own 'Calendar', he continues to perform in Ireland, ..." and then add a ref that links back to the Calendar page at his website. This way, at least there's a named source, even if it relies on his website. Mind you, a list of venues should be solidly reliable, since it's what enables audiences to attend his performances, and him to earn a living! Thank you for all your great help, Yintan, and also for your patience with me, as I learn how to do all these wonderful things! I'd like to think the article will look quite a lot better by the time I've gone through it again and added relevant references. Thanks once again for all your help, Yintan!! Patrick. ;-)) Pdebee (talk) 14:26, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Patrick. I added the <ref name=culture2012> tag, amongst others. The name tag is used when you want to use the same source as a ref for a number of things. See WP:REFNAME for more info on how that works. That's also what automatically adds the a,b,(etc) characters; one character for everytime the ref is used in the article. Linking back to Irvine's calendar on his own site for reference is strictly speaking not acceptable but I don't think many people will have a problem with it. Still, other sources are very much preferred. If you can't source the individual countries, I suggest to just stick with "Europe" which now is, more or less, sourced. Cheers,  Yintan  14:38, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello Yintan; I am making slow progress with adding references to this article but I feel like I am 'on a roll' now; so, I hope you won't mind if I start this paragraph without any indentations, so as to reset our continued exchanges onto a 'new line', so to speak. As you can see, I've now got the hang of the effort to add these references and I'll just keep going; however, I don't think I could have been as productive as this if I hadn't benefited from your advice and guidance, especially with the examples you provided so graciously; so, thank you once again for your generous spirit of cooperation. Once I have added the relevant references to O'Toole's book, I will expand my research more widely, focusing mainly on verifiable articles written by journalists (such as Colin Harper's article on Sweeney's Men, published in 'Mojo' in 2003). If all goes as well as today, I expect to be done with all the references work in a few days' time.

Then, I will ask you to review it one more time, perhaps with the goal of determining whether or not it might be time to remove the boxed comment at the very top of the article, which asked for references to reliable sources. In other words, I'd like to make progress towards enabling this article to enjoy a better standing in the eyes of WP reviewers like yourself. But, if more work is needed, then I am hopeful you will continue to guide and help me achieve that goal. Thank you for your consideration in this matter, Yintan.

It's bed time here in the UK, so I'll close shop for now and hope to hear from you again soon, at your convenience. Until then, very many thanks once again for all your great assiatance, and for your patience with me; all of it is very much appreciated.

With kind regards for now; Patrick. Pdebee (talk) 22:31, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello Patrick. As I've said before, I'm happy to help so if there's anything you need, let me know. The 'additional citations' banner at the top of the page can be removed (or added) by anybody, so if you feel you've added enough sources (and you sure have added a lot) then feel free to remove it. You have as much right to do that as anybody else. Cheers,  Yintan  22:09, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Andy Irvine continued

Hello Yintan. Thank you *so* much for bestowing a 'barnstar' on me for the progress made over the past few days! Being a novice contributor to WP, I didn't even know such a prize existed until now! ;-)) ... I can see that it is included in a section that I can edit; so, am I supposed to go in there and add a comment, or something? Thanks for your guidance here. Also, about removing the 'additional citations' banner; is that achieved by simply deleting the first line at the very top of the article (which is currently showing: "{{BLP sources|date=October 2011}}")? If so, then yes, I would like to do that, as I daresay the justifiable criticism therein is certainly much less warranted now than it was only a few days ago; I am heartened by the impression this is your opinion also. So, thank you for letting me know how to remove this box and I'll do it with your blessing. For now, I am certainly a lot happier about the article than when I started a few days ago, although I'll definitely continue to add as many references as I can for every single piece of information in the article, by seeking these online in the near future (as you probably noticed, I hitherto relied mainly on hardcopy documents I hold at home, such as the O'Toole book and the Folk Roots & Frets magasines I kept over the years. It'll be a lot easier, I think, to find additional, reliable journalistic sources once I go online; thanks once again for the initial suggestion you made about this approach a few days ago. Finally, I'd like to add a new section between 'Early Years' and ' Music Career', with a title like 'Woody Guthrie Influences' (for example), as I have a few published sources that include quite a few quotes by Irvine himself on Guthrie's impact on him from his adolescent years onwards. Would that be OK, in your opinion? Many thanks for letting me know; your continued assistance will ensure I do this correctly. Until then, please keep well and thank you once again for the 'barnstar'! ;-)) Patrick. Pdebee (talk) 11:18, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Wooops! Sorry! ... When I inserted the string of characters: { { B L P s o u r c e s | d a t e = O c t o b e r 2 0 1 1 } } ; I hadn't realised the system would actually process it and re-created the box itself in the text of my previous update itself! It also messed up the indentation; well, one's learning every day! Thank you for your indulgence... ;-)) Patrick. Pdebee (talk) 11:24, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello Patrick. I cut our dialogue in two for easier editing. Yes, removing that {{BLP sources|date=October 2011}} code will remove the banner. Tip: next time you want to quote code in a message, put it between "nowiki" tags. That stops it from being processed by the system. You can see these tags in this text when you edit this message. I also added them to your message above to stop the banner from appearing again ;-) About the new Woodie Guthrie section: you can of course add what you want, but try not to go too deep into details. A lot of artists' bios suffer from 'fancruft': overly detailed trivia that's not really all that important. I can't judge how important Guthrie has been for Irvine's career, but it's something to keep in mind. If you can get the same info across in (for example) one or two sourced lines of text, I wouldn't make it a section. But that's just my opinion. Enjoy the Barnstar, it's very well deserved. No, you don't have to answer or add to it. Like I said, just polish it once a month.  Yintan  12:59, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello Yintan. Thank you for your latest reply and for opening another section in your Talk page for our continued communications. I am grateful to you for teaching me all these wikitricks ;-)) and I'll bear them in mind. Thank you for your advice about the danger of 'fancruft' [I'd never heard that amusing word before! ;-D...]. What I wanted to achieve is an informative transition from 'Early Years' to 'Music Career' that would help answer the question: "How is it possible that someone who studied classical guitar with Julian Bream could have ended up playing folk music on mandolin and harmonica?" There was always an inherent contradiction that certainly puzzled me in the early years and I wanted to address and resolve that issue upfront. The text I entered in the new 'Woody Guthrie Influences' section was the key that resolved this issue for me at the time I read it in the Frets interview of 1985 (long before the Internet and Andy's own web site, of course). I therefore thought that these six short paragraphs, in Andy's own words, would do the trick. I daresay that, by the time the reader then reaches the 'Music Career' section, the scene will have been set for the start, in 1962, of Andy's new career as a folk musician in Ireland. I am hopeful that you will view this new section in the same light but, as always, I remain open to your advice and suggestions.

Of course, I spent most of this week's effort in sorting out the text of 'Music Career', including the provision of citations from reliable, third party sources. It's been hard work but I have enjoyed the task immensely, especially since that text looks a great deal more structured, complete and precise than it was earlier this week! And, of course, that was my main objective, as I had despaired over the years about the state of the article. In my opinion, there is still scope for expanding the text a little bit more about the two decades of 1992-2012, especially with regard to 'Mozaik' and 'LAPD', and I would like to do this in the latter part of next week, by which time I will have taken delivery of my brand-new, super-fast, quad-cored computer! For now, though, I believe the article is in good standing (or at least much better than it was a week ago) and I hope it will do for now. Once my new kit is operational, I will focus my research for citations on the online articles produced by quality newspapers or magazines; we'll see.

Finally, you will have noticed that I also created a new short section on Andy's 'Commitment to Social Justice'. Please rest assured that, personally, I certainly do not want to engage in politics online but, rather, I wanted to segregate that particular aspect of Andy's life from the music (although I suspect he wouldn't see it that way himself). Basically, I wanted to create a section where others can develop that particular subject if they want to, while I shall remain interested mainly in the music aspect. Quite frankly, I do not care very much for the paragraph about Royal Dutch Shell, but I am sure I am expected to respect the wishes of the person(s) who decided to submit it in the first place; so, there it stays.

Very many thanks once again for all your helpful, generous and patient assistance, Yintan; I am sure I would never have gone this far so quickly if you hadn't been there to assist and advice! And it was especially nice to see my efforts appreciated; so, thank you once again for your praise. All that's left for me to do now is to book a monthly reminder in my calendar, for a recurring task called: 'Today is Barnstar Polishing Day!!!' ;-D ... With kind regards; Patrick. Pdebee (talk) 22:41, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Patrick. Two quick remarks about the Guthrie quotations section. There's a lot of quotes, see WP:QUOTE, and they don't follow the Manual of Style, see MOS:QUOTE. Maybe you could cut down on the quoting a bit? Quotes are generally copyrighted and although there is some room for 'fair use', they shouldn' be overused. I'm not saying you are overusing but it is a lot of quoting, I think. Just my two cents, do with it what you like. Cheers,  Yintan  11:10, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Yintan. Many thanks for your suggestions on my use of quotes. On the point of following the correct style, I've now looked into this (TY for the links) and can see I should have used ellipses instead of brackets for omitted material; of course, I can easily change that and will do it at once after this reply. If there is anything else I should do, please kindly suggest briefly what it is and I'll go to the manual and find out how to do it. On the other point you made, concerning the amount of quoting in that section: I am really thorn; on the one hand, I strongly wish to comply with the rules and remain a good 'wiki-citizen'. On the other hand, I do feel that the explanation provided by Irvine himself is quite illuminating about the genesis of such an influential change in his formative years; the discovery of Woody Guthrie clearly had a major impact on him at the time, and therefore propulsed his life in a completely different direction: from acting and playing classical guitar in England to becoming a folk musician and singer/songwriter playing mandolin and harmonica in Ireland. Looking back again at the quoted text in that Woody Guthrie section, I find it difficult to pare down on the quantity of prose without dimnishing the vivacity of the story he tells us. Maybe I am too close to it to be able to apply the required surgery... I appreciate you giving me the latitude and freedom to decide, although I'd still like to conform as much as possible to your advice. I'll see what I can do to compact Irvine's quote on Guthrie and will do my best to follow your advice, as ever. With kind regards for now :-); Patrick. Pdebee (talk) 11:47, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Yintan. OK; I've now replaced brackets with ellipses to indicate omitted text and also cut down the amount of quoted text without taking anything away from the gist of the story Irvine tells us. I think that what is left gives enough information while also keeping the original vivacity I wanted the article to convey. Please let me know what you think, whenever convenient? Thank you. With kind regards for now; Patrick. :-) Pdebee (talk) 14:49, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

2013 MTV Video Music Awards

Hi Yintan, "What a beautiful name", I am too close to Britney's manager, Adam Leber if you know him, anyways, he is my cousin and I am the biggest Britney fan on earth, I have no source for what I wrote because I am the first to talk about it, it's obvious ! and it's okey if you deleted it, ... ! have a good day Yintan (BTW: I LOVE YOUR NAME) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.251.174.66 (talk) 11:05, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks ;-) Yes, you have to be able to source statements like that. Cheers,  Yintan  11:20, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit of 'Spain' section in 'Doctor of Philosophy'

Hello, Yintan.

I have edited the "Spain" section in the article "Doctor of Philosophy" because, following and reading the normative references, I have detected that the reference to the Spanish laws in the current article IS OBSOLETE.

I have related and referenced the 2 modifications that have taken place since 1998 (the year referenced in the current article) until today.

I consider is very important for users reading the section "Spain" in the article "Doctor of Philosophy" to have knowledge and references of this normative updates. Particularly, it is very important to know which is the legal norm that applies nowadays.

Finally, I just left the article written in SPANISH because this is my mother language and I am not able to write this comments in a correct English. So that, I have considered more util to allow users to read it correctly in Spanish than to translate it to an incorrect English.

Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.111.219.237 (talk) 11:17, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is the English Wikipedia. You can't add Spanish sections to articles here. Maybe you can find someone who can translate the Spanish text for you? Cheers,  Yintan  11:22, 29 July 2013 (UTC)