Template talk:Refbegin

Template:Refbegin is permanently protected from editing because it is a heavily used or highly visible template. Substantial changes should first be proposed and discussed here on this page. If the proposal is uncontroversial or has been discussed and is supported by consensus, editors may use {{edit template-protected}} to notify an administrator or template editor to make the requested edit. Usually, any contributor may edit the template's documentation to add usage notes or categories.

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Archive 1

Default columns?

Given that Template:Reflist now defaults to 30em, should this template behave in the same manner? My instincts say it should. DonIago (talk) 13:24, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not the same use case—while reflist is used for all kinds of citations, usually on the shorter side, refbegin is most often used for bibliography sections, which are rarely broken into columns. czar 15:09, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ordered list rather than unordered list

I'm not sure why the current practice is to use an unordered list, but almost always the lists employing these templates have been ordered (usually by e.g. last name). Could we at-least add support in the CSS for an ordered list inside of these templates? --Izno (talk) 16:07, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But all the other reference lists are unordered chaotic jumbles, so readers might become disoriented if they find one that's ordered. E Eng 18:20, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also like to suggest we stop supporting definition lists, or maybe even to apply special CSS to say "this needs to be fixed because it is the wrong kind of list in this template". --Izno (talk) 16:08, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What's a definition list? E Eng 18:20, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Definition list. Or MOS:DLIST. --Izno (talk) 23:25, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Contradictory info about columns needs clarifying

This whole page is extremely unclear about what is ACTUALLY correct, number of columns or width of columns. Number is given as the default, not width, but then called "deprecated" near the bottom of the page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snizzbut (talk • contribs) 22:52, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding this point and the section above (#Default_columns?), there is confusion about how the columns are used and whether the format matches that of {{reflist}}. Currently, the documentation says

If an integer n is supplied as the first parameter, the template will display the bibliography/references list in n columns. This may be useful for compact display for a lengthy list, and matches also the optional capability of {{reflist}} to display output in multiple columns.

However, at {{reflist}}, this column format has been deprecated:

The syntax {{Reflist|2}} (for example), which specifies two columns of equal width regardless of the available display width, is deprecated (and is disabled for mobile view). When you use 1 the template gives you a single column while 2 will pretend you specified 30em. When using higher column counts, it will pretend you specified 25em.

I don't know if this column format is deprecated in the sense of reflist (turned into a width parameter) or used in another way here, and I certainly don't understand what the preferred usage is, but surely the documentation should be updated. kennethaw88 • talk 18:06, 20 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have made some edits which remove an indication of the 'n' way of doing things. Izno (talk) 18:27, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the column count format is and does need to be deprecated more fully. --Izno (talk) 05:53, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This search identifies the majority of these pages. We could maybe add a category for a bot to work on to remove this. I think that's how {{reflist}} eliminated the numeric pattern. (Unlike with reflist, we can consider leaving the unnamed first parameter to continue to serve as a colwidth as it does today when the template finds non-numerics in the parameter.) --Izno (talk) 01:08, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Depreciated parameter 2

Per Template:Reflist#Example, would I be correct in assuming that {{Refbegin|2}} is depreciated, defaulting to 30em as if |30em had been specified? If so, then Template:Refbegin's documentation should be updated. — CJDOS, Sheridan, OR (talk) 12:51, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Removing column count?

Based on the discussions above, I'll update the documentation to remove instructions for adding a quantity of columns. I wonder if it would be acceptable to prevent the template from outputting column counts? This seems easier than writing a bot to fix them all. The vast majority of specified quantities are just "2". Here's a breakdown:

2	15,000
3	600
4	30
5	13
6	0

Rather than continuing to implement this, the template could just give "30em" which is the default for references. Or 30em for 2 columns, and 20em for higher. Or even ignore the counts altogether. This would fix any issues with editors specifying a fixed number of columns. Rjjiii (talk) 05:03, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps disregard the above post. After some digging, the template is widely used for non-ref purposes as a small text plus number of columns template. See this legend separated into columns on Schizophrenia for example. Rjjiii (talk) 18:32, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ugh, that is a misuse of this template. The template contains various CSS classes and styles that are applicable only to references. It should not be used for other purposes. That legend should use {{div col}} or one of the other column-generating template families listed in the documentation for that template. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:38, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've cleaned out the 3-5 column usages. Using Izno's search syntax I don't see any more pages left. I've also converted a bunch of misuse (thanks for the {{div col}} link). There are still the 15,000 pages left using refbegin|2. I tried modifying the sandbox version of the template to give "30em" when a number of columns is requested. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ(talk) 03:12, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Making notes as I go: I've cleaned all of the {{reflist|1}} usage down to {{reflist}} and have made the sandbox treat {{reflist|1}} as if the 1 was not there. 2 or greater as a column count will creates 30em wide columns. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 06:16, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Template-protected edit request on 7 October 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change the template to the sandbox version. The live version of the template permits defining the column width or quantity. The sandbox version only permits defining the column width and provides a fallback where any quantity of columns will result in columns at 30em (the default for references). The current default of 1 full-width column is still present, and a quantity of "1" will also give that default of 1 full-width column. Per talk page discussions, this is more flexible and matches the updates for {{reflist}}. Additionally, I have converted all uses of large quantities of columns (3–6) in articles to either narrow columns or a more appropriate template. Once all 2-column formatting is updated, the fallback can likely be removed. Thanks for your time, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:05, 8 October 2023 (UTC) Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:05, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Completed. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 12:55, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]