Template talk:Heraldic traditions by country
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For discussion of the Heraldry by country project, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology/Heraldry by country. Thank you. Wilhelm_meis (talk) 02:51, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Cornwall
[edit]Under heraldic law Cornwall constituted a separate heraldic nation, as is explained in the article, and that is why I added it. If it can't be put under the United Kingdom then where should it be placed??? Bodrugan (talk) 16:47, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
- Heraldic law is not really what is applicable to the division of Wikipedia articles, and the article cites a 14th century court case, hardly relevant for how we do things now. See Lists of countries and territories for what is normally accepted here. Please stop spamming Cornwall as a separate country to all kinds of templates. Fram (talk) 07:43, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- They Cornish would qualify as a nation (a cultural entity) then wouldn't they. Bodrugan (talk) 17:10, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- Comment: As one of the editors who helped build this template, I have to say we never really discussed the issue of defining "country". I don't want to speak for others, but as for myself, it was always in the back of my mind that "country" can be a difficult word to define, but I assumed we would ultimately rely on the default position of including those entities which are generally regarded by reliable sources as "countries", "sovereign states" or former "countries" and excluding those which are not. Despite the urgings of the Cornish nationalism movement, I have not seen any evidence that Cornwall is generally regarded as a "country". Cornwall is not among the member countries of the European Union (though the UK is); Cornwall is not a member country of the United Nations (though the UK is); Cornwall is not among the countries listed in the CIA World Factbook. Cornwall is generally considered a subnational unit, not a country in and of itself. In my opinion, former countries (such as Yugoslavia) are within the scope of this template, but supranational bodies (such as the European Union) and subnational bodies (such as South Dakota) are outside the scope of this template. Given a lack of reliable sources identifying Cornwall as a "country", in my opinion it is outside the scope of this template. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 00:15, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you for that Wilhelm. I wasn't originally claiming that Cornwall should be listed with all the countries. I originally put it under the United Kingdom in the brackets with England Scotland and Wales. What I would say though is that the definition given by Fram of what constitutes a country does allow for Cornwall to be included like Wales is. "A country or territory is a geographical area, either in the sense of nation (a cultural entity) and/or state (a political entity)." and "Nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history. However, it can also refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up; that is, a nation state." Indeed Cornwall and the Cornish people were referred to as a nation or country during the 16th and 17th century. People who have explicitly referred to Cornwall in such a way include: Thomas Agar-Robartes MP, 1910; Peter Bessell MP and John Pardoe MP, 1967; Charles Lee (author) 1898; D. H. Lawrence; Ludovico Falier, Venetian ambassador, 1531; Girolamo Ruscelli, 1561; George Lily, 1546; Johannes Honter; Polydore Vergil, official historian of Henry VII and VIII; Sebastian Münster, 1538; Francis Bacon, 1622; Robert Louis Stevenson; John Betjeman; and A. L. Rowse. There are also the 83,966 who stated their national identity as Cornish in the United Kingdom Census 2011 and the 41% of school children registering their ethnic identity as Cornish in the same year. There are also several thousand people who speak the Cornish language. So there's definitely "a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history." which means that there's a "nation (a cultural entity)" which is one of the two definitions of Country that Wikipedia lists. Bodrugan (talk) 04:10, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
- I see a few points here that I would like to address. Please allow me to organize my thoughts.
- First, this is the Heraldry by country template; all the entities listed within this template are widely recognized as countries (though not necessarily as nations, sovereign states or nation states, which are political terms with different meanings). As you identified, UK has England, Scotland and Wales listed parenthetically, but this is because UK is a special case; while the United Kingdom is itself considered a "country", England, Scotland and Wales are also widely considered "countries". Certainly, these were each considered both "countries" and "sovereign states" prior to the Acts of Union, and they are still considered "countries" but no longer "sovereign states". We do not include a link to Flags and symbols of Yorkshire in this template because Yorkshire is not widely considered a "country". Likewise, Cornwall is widely regarded as a county in England, not a country in and of itself.
- I am aware that Cornwall has a longer history than its status as a county of England, but its county status reaches back to the 11th century, before the advent of heraldry; therefor, it has no heraldic history as a former country (as does Yugoslavia, for instance, which was a country in the 20th century).
- While I agree with your definition of nation, this is an anthropological term that is ill-suited to political geography and is not the same as a country. I am from Missouri and of German descent, so when asked my nationality I could answer "Missourian" (though this would be unusual because Missouri has a geographical and political identity but not an ethnic identity), "American" (the nation in which I was born) or "German" (where my ancestors came from), but when asked my country of origin the only valid answer in my case is "United States". Similarly, someone from Cornwall could say their nationality is "Cornish", but their country of origin is England or the United Kingdom.
- While I have no doubt that some Cornish politicians and historians have publicly referred to "the nation of Cornwall", widely recognized sources on world geography do not refer to Cornwall as a country. (Again note, one is an anthropological term, the other is a geographical term).
- The word nation appears nowhere in Wikipedia's definition of country. Oxford defines country as an area of land with its own government, or the people who inhabit such an area (see "country").
- I can't speak for Fram or for the others who have contributed to this project, but that's my take on it. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 06:14, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
- I see a few points here that I would like to address. Please allow me to organize my thoughts.
- Thank you for that Wilhelm. I wasn't originally claiming that Cornwall should be listed with all the countries. I originally put it under the United Kingdom in the brackets with England Scotland and Wales. What I would say though is that the definition given by Fram of what constitutes a country does allow for Cornwall to be included like Wales is. "A country or territory is a geographical area, either in the sense of nation (a cultural entity) and/or state (a political entity)." and "Nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history. However, it can also refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up; that is, a nation state." Indeed Cornwall and the Cornish people were referred to as a nation or country during the 16th and 17th century. People who have explicitly referred to Cornwall in such a way include: Thomas Agar-Robartes MP, 1910; Peter Bessell MP and John Pardoe MP, 1967; Charles Lee (author) 1898; D. H. Lawrence; Ludovico Falier, Venetian ambassador, 1531; Girolamo Ruscelli, 1561; George Lily, 1546; Johannes Honter; Polydore Vergil, official historian of Henry VII and VIII; Sebastian Münster, 1538; Francis Bacon, 1622; Robert Louis Stevenson; John Betjeman; and A. L. Rowse. There are also the 83,966 who stated their national identity as Cornish in the United Kingdom Census 2011 and the 41% of school children registering their ethnic identity as Cornish in the same year. There are also several thousand people who speak the Cornish language. So there's definitely "a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history." which means that there's a "nation (a cultural entity)" which is one of the two definitions of Country that Wikipedia lists. Bodrugan (talk) 04:10, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Changes
[edit]I have just removed some links in the template, links which were red or which just were redirects to national emblems (Turkey, Frisia etc.). While there may be reason to have these in the template, I think re-adding them should wait at least until there are stub articles created for them. Arms Jones (talk) 07:49, 29 January 2014 (UTC)