Talk:Welburn-on-Derwent

Yorkshire Low‑importance

	Yorkshire portal Welburn-on-Derwent is within the scope of WikiProject Yorkshire, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Yorkshire on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project, see a list of open tasks, and join in discussions on the project's talk page.YorkshireWikipedia:WikiProject YorkshireTemplate:WikiProject YorkshireYorkshire articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

England Low‑importance

	England portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

UK geography Low‑importance

	United Kingdom portal This article falls within the scope of WikiProject UK geography, a user-group dedicated to building a comprehensive and quality guide to places in the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you wish to participate, share ideas or merely get tips you can join us at the project page where there are resources, to do lists and guidelines on how to write about settlements.UK geographyWikipedia:WikiProject UK geographyTemplate:WikiProject UK geographyUK geography articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Article title

Two issues with the article title. 1. Bracket disambiguation is contrary to WP:NCGN - and is confusing in this case, because it makes it seem that Welburn is actually a ward. 2. "Amotherby" seems a little obscure as a disambiguator: it is not even mentioned in the article.

I agree that ward is one of several options for disambiguating permitted by WP:UKPLACE, but in this case it seems too obscure to pass the test of the most likely label to send the reader to the right article. The district council here and the county council here disambiguate by the name of the nearest town (Malton). So how about naming the article Welburn, near Malton?--Mhockey (talk) 21:35, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The article you are disambiguating against Welburn (Kirkbymoorside Ward) could also be described as near Malton. Near is not an option in WP:UKPLACE at the moment, may be a wider discussion is required. We did have similar problems with Wood End and ended up with Wood End, Kingsbury, Warwickshire see some of discussion at Talk:Wood End, Kingsbury, Warwickshire. Keith D (talk) 13:00, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This Welburn is a lot nearer Malton than the other one, and I thought that the disambiguator that local government uses was the best guide. Your Wood End case was an easier example because Wood End is in the CP of Kingsbury. I would not be too fussed about dropping the "near" - again following the example of the district council.

My main objection to the current title is that it makes it look as though Welburn is a ward, like Ashley (Bristol ward). There are other examples of duplicated parishes within the same district elsewhere, listed here: User_talk:Skinsmoke/Sandbox/Civil_parishes/Kernow#Alphabetical order, but as far as I can see, none uses ward (although it is not always clear where the disambiguator comes from). Within North Yorkshire we have Newbiggin, North Yorkshire and Newbiggin, Askrigg: in that case one place is much bigger than the other (as here), but one is a CP and the other is not (here both are CPs). The truth of the matter is that such cases have to be treated case by case, and ward seems counterintuitive as a disambiguator: ward boundaries change more often than most boundaries, they are not widely known outside local government, they do not appear on most maps, and in this case the ward is named after a smaller village some distance away (I suspect that the ward would have been called Welburn if that would not have confused things more!). And it's not the disambiguator that the district council uses, so does not seem to be commonly used.--Mhockey (talk) 09:53, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it is possible to be proscriptive and give an approach that works with all cases. That said, IMO it is sensible to avoid wards as much as possible and treat them as a last resort. But in the City of London (and elsewhere?), the wards are stable, long-lasting subdivisions.

Two alternatives: Historically, this Welburn was in Malton RD while the other was in Kirkbymoorside RD. One alternative is to look at physical geography instead of human geography: If this one is described as "Welburn (Howardian Hills)" and the other as "Welburn (Vale of Pickering)" or "Welburn (Kirk Dale)", then these are unambiguous. Neither of these options are proscribed in WP:UKPLACE, but WP:IAR can be invoked here if necessary; a guideline cannot handle all edge cases.--Nilf anion (talk) 21:19, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I see someone has moved the corresponding Commons category to Welburn, Derwent (for the nearby river), so I've done the same. I've also set up a redirect from Welburn, Malton, to match the way the parish council and district council disambiguate.--Mhockey (talk) 21:14, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]