Talk:Volk Han

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"sports entertainment"/ fake

Volk han wasn't an actual fighter. They were all "fixed" or preplaned whatever u want to call it I really dont care im not a WWE fanboy. But this guy wasnt a real fighter and to call him the same thing as a true actual mma fighter is just sad.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.11.240.111 (talk) 12:41, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

^{[citation needed]}

Well, I do mean do you have anything to decisively prove or disprove this? Otherwise your claim is conjecture.--TrickShotFinn (talk) 19:56, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I cant prove the stone cold stunner was a work, but its common knowledge. For the sake of stability, ill refrain from vandalizing until I can find a more convincing appeal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacee215 (talk • contribs) 19:55, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes you can prove wrestling moves being a work. For example, lot of pro wrestling insiders (read: co-workers/other wrestlers, staff) have been exposing in-ring and backstage stuff involving Mr. Austin here. Whatever its interview shows by ex-wrestlers and fans, non-fiction/factual/autobiographical books by wrestling biz people or scoops from wrestling reporters like Dave Meltzer. You wanna prove it was work? There was plenty of stuff to reference.

Kinda same thing with Mr.Han's record here. You wanna prove its worked, you need the backstage stuff and/or co-worker confessions to cite. Regarding RINGS, I just know 1991-1994 was in fact promoted as "shoot-style pro wrestling group" and stuff from 2000 till its closure was (likely) legit. But sketchy part is the stuff between 1995 and 1999, as that's when RINGS *claims* to be a MMA organization, yet a trained observer can notice a degree of fight fixing or pro wrestling work going on. It doesn't help Volk Han had his blue pants on during this period, as in 2000, when they went legit, he was made to change to black trunks. Though now I'm little curious about Sherdog treating potentially phony fights legit [1] --TrickShotFinn (talk) 16:29, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dispute: Volk Han as a fighter

Well. The time has come. I told you I would come back and I have.

Volk Han was not a mma fighter. He was a professional wrestler. MMANOT should not accept Rings network as a Top tier promotion, but we'll get to that. I'll word my argument as such, and genuinely would like some further authority to reach a verdict on this.

Volk Han ONLY participated in Rings for one reason, it was worked. There is no other verifiable organizations that Volk Han participated in that would counter this conclusion.

He was always a pro wrestler. I do contend that his style, even during the early days of MMA contributed to its birth and popularity. That being said, none of the pro fights listed on his record are real. Have I seen them? No. But there is no reason I would believe they are real, being that Rings was not an MMA organization until quite some time after and there was a clear delineation between worked events and shoot events.

Volk Han did a few real fights but I don't consider him an MMA fighter. he was more a pro wrestler who did MMA. "https://twitter.com/YiJxsPZGIE">https://twitter.com/YiJxsPZGIE</a>
— Dave Meltzer (@davemeltzerWON)^[1]
December 22, 2016

I hope that we can all read between the lines of this tweet.

Here is 2 other matches that we can also reliably assume were works based on Dave Meltzer

For all people who don't know who Volk Han is, look for his matches with Kiyoshi Tamura and Tsuyoshi Kosaka
— Dave Meltzer (@davemeltzerWON)^[2]

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_318#Sherdog.com
Jacee215 (talk) 16:30, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, that's super. Then care to track down and remove every instance of RINGS in other folks' MMA records? Like Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira, Branden Lee Hinkle and like? TrickShotFinn (talk) 09:44, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Scratch that. I reversed your delete bomb.

MMANOT should not accept Rings network as a promotion - Well, glad you went on your delete rampage before clear consensus was established.

Volk Han ONLY participated in Rings for one reason, it was worked. - Abductive reasoning. Han's personal statements and third party statements wanted.

There is no other verifiable organizations that Volk Han participated in that would counter this conclusion. - Except Freestyle Wrestling and Sambo career prior to RINGS. "Gamzatkhanov won the Nalchik regional championship (Freestyle) in 1979. He also won the USSR junior championship two years back to back, and placed fourth in the international Aliyev Cup."

I hope that we can all read between the lines of [Meltzer's tweet]. - Yeah, it says "Volk Han did a few real fights" and that Volk Han is a pro wrestler who has fought in MMA matches. How does this contradict him partaking in MMA matches?

That being said, none of the pro fights listed on his record are real. - Despite Meltzer saying otherwise?

Rings was not an MMA organization until quite some time after and there was a clear delineation between worked events and shoot events. - If there is delineation, then why did you remove the actual fights?

Sherdog reliability - Thanks, but Sherdog isn't the only one.

@Jacee215 You need to calm down a bit. It's already alarming that you returned to this after nearly a full year. There's probably other problems in your reasoning too, but I have the rest of the day booked. TrickShotFinn (talk) 13:27, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Look, I assume you are acting in good faith, but constantly deleting his MMA record on basis that he is a pro wrestler is reductive. Unless the clear census on RINGS's legit/show credentials is established - here in wikipedia - then regrettably, a disclaimer about Volk Han's fights being unverifiable is the best option for time being. Like I jokingly said before, then it raises questions about validity of fights some fighter's fight records - like Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira, Branden Lee Hinkle - for having fought in RINGS (against Volk Han). And I don' think this here is the correct place to discuss RINGS's legitimacy - it has it's own places here in Wikipedia. TrickShotFinn (talk) 07:47, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

Mysterious sources - can anybody find these?

I've found a few non-English sources, but I am unable to acquire them physically.

Russian and Tartar language wikipedia lists the following as Literature: "Магомедов, М. Волк-Хан: борьба продолжается. — М.: МГУК Тип. "Новости", 1998. — 143 с." Does anybody know what this is - sounds like Autobiographical work? I am unable to find this.
On Amazon JP, I found 格闘技通信　世界初の潜入ルポ　関節技のマジシャン　ヴォルク・ハン　1992年11月23日　no.74 (Kakutōgi tsūshin sekai-hatsu no sen'nyū rupo kansetsu-waza no majishan vu~oruku Han 1992-nen or Martial arts communication World's first infiltration reportage arts magician Volk Han November 23, 1992 no.74 ) (ASIN ‏ : ‎ B0989LPLHN)
雑誌Sports Graphic Number 309(1993.2/20号)★特集:格闘者たちよ!/総合格闘技/佐竹雅昭/平直行/ヴォルク・ハン/アンディ・フグ/オランダ★

Anybody have a clue on these? Let me know. -- TrickShotFinn (talk) 16:22, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttps://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/811837433679474688?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw"

[2] ttps://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/1147499134540308482?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw"July 6, 2019

[1]

[2]