Talk:Thomas M. Montgomery

Discussion of recent edits

In response to a concern initiated by new editor User:Dave Stockwell, I have opened this thread to discuss recent edits to this biography. The editor has, specifically, taken issue with recently added content sourced to Scott Peterson's book Me Against My Brother for potential violation of our WP:BLP policies. That content is as follows:

• The anger felt by Somalis for this attack is credited as the driving force for the Black Hawk Down incident.
• Montgomery's statement on the attack was "they weren't innocents, they were people who actively participated in action against the UN. So they were soldiers, on militia operations, so I have no remorse about it at all."
• Four Western journalists were killed at the scene by Somalis following the attacks.
• On June 5th, Pakistani UN troops were detailed to inspect the offices of Radio Mogadishu, a radio station that had been broadcasting propaganda in support of Somali warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid. The evening before the raid, Aidid's Interior Minister Abdi Hassan Awale declared that such an inspection would be considered and act of war. Montgomery is alleged to have withheld the message from the Pakistanis. In the gunfight that resulted, 25 Pakistani troops died, the largest killing of UN peacekeeping troops since 1961.

The questions seem to be (a) is this content an accurate summary of content in the book, (b) is the book a WP:RS, (c) is the content WP:UNDUE? Chetsford (talk) 04:26, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

• Yes / Yes / Maybe Based on what I can view in the Google Books preview of the book the content added is an accurate summary. I have only found one WP:RS that expresses concerns about the accuracy of Peterson's book (in the Journal of Genocide Research here [1]). However, I believe the entire section "Command in Somalia" veers into a level of detail that is more appropriate at the article United Nations Operation in Somalia II. Montgomery is 78 years old and this relatively brief command currently comprises one-third of his biography. Moreover, the section on his command is hyper-focused on a 45-day series of events in which, even according to the source, it seems he had tangential involvement. I would suggest trimming the entire section to "In 1993 Montgomery was appointed Deputy Commander of UNOSOM II, the self-styled "first American General in a blue beret". This position gave him control of all the United States forces in Somalia. The so-called "Bloody Monday", cited by some observers as the casus belli of the 1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident, occurred during his time at UNOSOM II." Chetsford (talk) 04:26, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
  • I would avoid using "casus belli": stick to plain English. Harrias ^talk 08:41, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
  • In response to the query; I would say that as things stand, the detail level for the Bloody Monday events is excessively detailed compared to the rest of his career. However, he is clearly most notable for that event, and even if he was only tangentially involved, the "they weren't innocents" quote shows that he was involved enough. I think, as usual, the answer is to make sure that we use enough different sources to provide a balanced and rounded summary of his career, and this event specifically. I would probably aim for a middle ground: longer than the three lines you have suggested, but shorter than the three or four paragraphs currently in place. Harrias ^talk 08:41, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Suggested Edits to Thomas M. Montgomery's Page

Chetsford: Thank you for lifting my block.

Chetsford and Harrias: I enjoyed your input to the edits on Montgomery's page. In the spirit of compromise, below are my observations to the major errors-in-fact and potential libel in the existing errors, along with my recommended changes. I look forward to your rendering.

Further, I like the term casus belli. While it is not plain English, it is a military term in keeping with the spirit of the page and raises the bar for Wikipedia enthusiasts. But that's just me.

Also, I hope I am consulted before future edits are proposed to Montgomery's page.

Chetsford: FYI, the battle you know as Black Hawk Down occurred in 1993, not 1994 as I believe you inserted.

Here are my observations and recommended changes:

Lieutenant General Thomas M. Montgomery (born January 23, 1941 in Indianapolis, Indiana) is a retired US Army officer who served as the deputy commander of UNOSOM I, UNITAF, and UNOSOM II in the Somali Civil War.

Major Error in Fact. Montgomery served as deputy commander of UNOSOM II, not UNOSOM I or UNITAF.

Recommended change: Lieutenant General Thomas M. Montgomery (born January 23, 1941 in Indianapolis, Indiana) is a retired US Army officer who served as the deputy commander of UNOSOM II from 1993 to 1994.

Also, the cited source does not support the statement.

Recommended change: Delete the source or find a proper one.

He once referred to Mogadishu as the "Temple of Doom.”

The abbreviated quote contains an error-in-fact that Montgomery used the term once. The abbreviated quote portrays Montgomery’s in a negative light. The full quote: I think it was clear up front that this was a very dangerous place. Later, I always described Mogadishu as sort of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

Recommended change: He said, “I think it was clear up front that this was a very dangerous place. Later, I always described Mogadishu as sort of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

Also, the cited source does not support the statement.

Recommended change: Delete the source or find a proper one.

His time as Deputy Commander of the UNOSOM II mission involved his oversight of an operation that one or more journalistic authors have cited in their writings as a possible atrocity, though this is debatable.

Potentially Libelous. The use of the word atrocity is associated with war crimes and adding "though this is debatable" is insufficient to make the charge of atrocity more palatable. There has never been evidence of war crimes committed by US or UN troops in Mogadishu.

There is no reference to the word atrocity in any of the cited sources.

Ironically, a Google search of Somalia atrocity shows no results related to the operation in question but rather shows results related to actions by Mohammed Farah Aideed, the Somali clan leader, who starved hundreds of thousands of Somalis during the Somali civil war that precipitated UNOSOM II, and who later chose to go to war against US and UN troops. Recommended change: His time as Deputy Commander of the UNOSOM II mission involved his oversight of an operation that some journalists criticize for its severity.

In 1993 Montgomery was appointed Deputy Commander of UNOSOM II, the self-styled "first American General in a blue beret.” This position gave him control of all the US forces in UNOSOM II.

Recommended change: None.

On June 5th, Pakistani UN troops were detailed to inspect the offices of Radio Mogadishu, a radio station that had been broadcasting propaganda in support of Somali warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid. The evening before the raid, Aidid's Interior Minister Abdi Hassan Awale declared that such an inspection would be considered and act of war. Montgomery is alleged to have withheld the message from the Pakistanis. In the gunfight that resulted, 25 Pakistani troops died, the largest killing of UN peacekeeping troops since 1961.

Besides the grammatical error in this passage, there are two major errors-in-fact and a potentially libelous unsupported charge.

Major Error-in-Fact. The Pakistani soldiers were detailed to inspect the authorized weapons storage site cleverly co-located with Radio Mogadishu. The soldiers did not inspect the Radio Mogadishu or its offices. This is not splitting hairs. This distinction is vital to understanding the start of Aideed’s war against UNOSOM II. The authorized weapons storage site was co-located with Radio Mogadishu so that an inspection of the site could be broadcast to the Somalia people as an attempted UN occupation of Radio Mogadishu. Such a propaganda charge was broadcast over Radio Mogadishu inciting riots by Somalis against Pakistani troops that resulted in 12 Pakistani soldiers killed at Feeding Site 1 in central South Mogadishu. The other 12 Pakistani soldiers were killed in a Somali ambush as they were leaving an Authorized Weapons Storage Site north of 21 October Road. No Pakistani soldiers were killed at Radio Mogadishu.

Major Error-in-Fact. Twenty four Pakistani soldiers were killed, not 25, an easily verifiable fact that has been reported correctly many dozens of times since 1993.

Potentially Libelous Unsupported Charge. Who alleged Montgomery withheld the message from the Pakistanis? This unsupported charge is potentially libelous because it offers no evidence.

Recommended change: On June 5th, Pakistani UN troops were detailed to inspect the UNOSOM II’s Authorized Weapons Storage Site co-located with Radio Mogadishu, a radio station that had been broadcasting propaganda in support of Somali warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid. The evening before the raid, Aidid's Interior Minister Abdi Hassan Awale declared that such an inspection would be considered an act of war.

On July 12, along with Admiral Jonathan Howe, Montgomery oversaw the event Somalis call Bloody Monday. According to American war correspondent Scott Peterson a group of Somali elders had gathered at a house to discuss a way to make peace to end the violence between Somali militias and the UN forces. The gathering had been publicized in Somali newspapers the day before the attack as a peace gathering. After being tipped off by an undercover operative, American Cobra attack helicopters launched TOW Missiles and 20 mm caliber cannon fire at the structure. According to a Somali survivor, American ground troops killed 15 survivors at close range with pistols, a charge American commanders deny. According to the International Committee of the Red Cross there were over 200 Somali casualties. Four Western journalists were killed at the scene by Somalis following the attacks. Montgomery's statement on the attack was "they weren't innocents, they were people who actively participated in action against the UN. So they were soldiers, on militia operations, so I have no remorse about it at all." For more context, see the Frontline interview at External Links below. The anger felt by Somalis for this attack is cited by Peterson and other journalists as the driving force for the Black Hawk Down incident. Although this is open to debate.

Recommended change: Add this paragraph following the above passage: On July 7, 1993, six Somali workers for UNOSOM II were targeted and murdered in brutal, execution-style attacks of such a cold-blooded nature that they shocked members of UNOSOM II. The order to kill those Somalis came from a meeting of Somali militia leaders at a house in South Mogadishu. These planners (loyal to Mohammed Farah Aideed) of the July 7 terrorist attack were targeted by UNOSOM II at their meeting on July 12. International photojournalists at the Sahafi Hotel were promised safe passage by Aideed loyalists to report on the destruction of the house. Four photojournalists (two were Western and two were African) were killed after they arrived on site. Scott Peterson, author of the book Me Against My Brother, was wounded in that attack on photojournalists. He wrote strongly in his book about the severity of the UNOSOM II attack. His bitterly emotional response to what he viewed, together with his wounding and the deaths of four of his colleagues, is understandable.

Use me as the source.

(Dave Stockwell (talk) 12:23, 4 December 2019 (UTC))

Thanks for your thoughts on this Dave Stockwell. There is a lot to unpick here, and I can't currently look over it in full detail. What I can say is that Wikipedia policy requires content, especially on a biography of a living person to be cited to reliable sources. This is not the case for a lot of the current content, which is something we need to fix. However, while I am not calling you "unreliable", you do not meet the Wikipedia criteria as a reliable source: see the link I provided for more details on that. That all said, the information you have provided should provide additional search criteria that we can then use to improve the article. I would strongly suggest that you do not edit the article yourself, due to a potential conflict of interest, but feel free to continue to provide constructive comments on this talk page. Harrias ^talk 14:03, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

BLOWITUP

There are so many issues with this article that I propose to WP:BLOWITUP. As a first step, I've placed a possible replacement draft here. This is a very fast and furious work-in-progress, so there are certainly some issues with it as well. I would welcome feedback and comments. Chetsford (talk) 02:02, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Having heard no objections or feedback other than some factual clarifications from Ricochet21 which I've sourced and incorporated, I'd like to suggest my proposed draft completely replace this article's contents as of January 9 if no one has any further objections by that time. Also, please feel free to make edits directly to the draft. Chetsford (talk) 19:55, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

@Harrias: Chetsford (talk) 19:56, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. Busy time of year, but I will take a look before the move. In general, BLOWITUP seems a reasonable suggestion. Harrias ^talk 20:03, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Since there have been no objections, I've fully replaced the text of the article. Chetsford (talk) 05:26, 13 January 2020 (UTC)