Talk:Der fliegende Holländer

Comment

changed "The opera may be referred to in English by its original title or in translation."

to: "The opera is referred to in English by its original title or in translation."

Anyone can call it whatever they like. Whether you'll be understood by others is a different matter. I assume the author meant what I changed it to. -Snpoj

Recording

Much as I like the idea of having a link to a complete recording of this work, I suspect that this link probably breaches somebody's copyright, and should therefore be removed. Could the original editor provide any information as to how this recording might be out of copyright? See WP:Copyright for more information. Thanks, --Dogbertd (talk) 13:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Versions

Is anyone thinking of adding reflections on the various versions of this opera? I am due to see this work for the first time at ROH in early 2009 in a 'one act, no interval' version. ROH claims that this is Wagner's preference. But other sources I have seen (e.g. Amanda Holden's Opera Guide) note that Wagner never oversaw such a production. And how precisely do the versions differ? I'm far too unknowledgeable to add anything on this. Can someone else enlighten us authoritatively? Thanks, GBViews (talk) 09:55, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

What About the Overture?

Shouldn't the article say something about the overture? Surely the overture is one of the most performed compositions of Wagner, quite apart from the opera itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.93.17.224 (talk) 18:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

summary

There is a mistake in the summary. At the beginning of act three the villagers are urging the Dutchman's crew to LEAVE their creepy ship, not go "onto" it -- they are already there.

A comment on the last tableau -- modern directors seem to find the "ascending to heaven" image impossibly hokey and try to symbolize the redemption some other way. In the three productions I've seen, the lights go out on the villagers and the couple are spotlighted embracing, while the ethereal music implies the spiritual side of the ending. One production had the inspired idea of showing Senta's dead body (played by a double) just before switching to the spotlight, so that the audience knows the spotlight is showing the afterlife. CharlesTheBold (talk) 12:22, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I've fixed the summary. Thanks for pointing things out. Feel free to fix similar errors yourself in future. As for the other point, we could do with a section on performances but content should be referenced. If you could find reviews online of the performances you went to or have copies of the programmes, they may mention what you say.--Peter cohen (talk) 09:11, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

'Redemption by love'?

I've removed the last part of the sentence that previously said: "The central theme is redemption through love, *to which Wagner returns in most of his subsequent operas*."

Anyone who wants to restore it will need to answer the following questions first: i) Where is the 'redemption through love' in 'Lohengrin'? ii) Where is the 'redemption through love' in 'Rheingold'? iii) Where is the 'redemption through love' in 'Walkure'? iv) Where is the 'redemption through love' in 'Siegfried'? v) Where is the 'redemption through love' in 'Tristan'? vi) Where is the 'redemption through love' in 'Meistersinger'? vii) Where is the 'redemption through love' in 'Gotterdammerung'? viii) Where is the 'redemption through love' in 'Parsifal'?

It seems to me that the idea of this being a theme 'to which Wagner returns in most of his subsequent operas' is *complete rubbish*. Pfistermeister (talk) 18:33, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

• • It could be argued that in several of his operas this theme is evident. I take The Ring cycle as a whole (as did Wagner), but Brunnhilde throws herself into the funeral pyre because of her love of Siegfried (and Wotan), returning the Ring to the Rheinmaidens, and thus thwarts Hagen's plan to gain the Ring. In Meistersinger Sachs is redeemed because he gives up the possibility of winning Eva's hand even tho he loves her. His reward is the undying love of the people (wouldn't satisfy me, but hey, this is opera.) In Tristan, the pair are redeemed from the illusions of Day by their lovers' suicide pact. In Parsifal the hero redeems Kundry and Amfortas because he expresses the form of love known as compassion. You don't mention Tannhauser because here the RTL theme is completely obvious. I'll give you Lohengrin, where the message appears to be a dire warning about curiosity. Seems to me that the sentence could simply have been modified thus if you found it so offensive: *to which Wagner returns in his subsequent opera.* --Dogbertd (talk) 16:55, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

• • • No, it 'could be argued' that you are just making 'redemption' and 'love' mean *whatever you need them to mean* in order to go on pasting the same words over a many operas as possible. What you've written is *forced* and *utterly ridiculous*. Pfistermeister (talk) 17:13, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

To Dogbertd: I really don't understand why you want to waste your valuable time arguing with this MasterBaker who has NEVER MADE A SINGLE CONSTRUCTIVE CONTRIBUTION TO ANY WAGNER-RELATED ARTICLE.

To the MasterBaker: I do not know what is eating you up inside, nor do I understand what trauma's or frustrations are bubbling in the underground sewers of your undoubtedly intelligent brain, but I suggest you start your own project and stay away from a collaborative effort like WP, or even better: stick to what you do best: adapting ridiculous machine translations from German WP and passing them off as your own contributions.

To all: this was my final contribution to this entire project. As I have said before to the popular music contingent: Live long and prosper, and may the force be with you. Francesco Malipiero (talk) 01:36, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

• well I usually try to assume good faith, although the tone of Pfistermeister's comments did make me wonder. So long Francesco, and thanks for all the fish.--Dogbertd (talk) 09:51, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Move request

The Flying Dutchman (opera) → Der fliegende Holländer – Reason: move this opera by Richard Wagner to its original German name, consistent with his other works, such as Die Walküre. The work is by now performed in German not only in Bayreuth, but in international opera houses. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:15, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Not least because the overture is still much more often performed and recorded than the opera itself, I would say this is still the WP:COMMONNAME in English. Unlike most of Wagner's titles (other than those that are names), it has a ready & meaningful translation into English. Obviously it sounds odd to native German-speakers like Gerda, but there we are. Note also the long list at Flying Dutchman (disambiguation). Johnbod (talk) 17:21, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose nominator has not proven the usage of this proposed title in English as the primary form. This is the English Wikipedia, not the German Wikipedia. -- 76.65.128.43 (talk) 23:59, 21 January 2013 (UTC)