Talk:Nobility privileges in Poland

A fact from Nobility privileges in Poland appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 27 April 2012 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the privileges of Polish nobility were unprecedented in Europe, giving the nobles the right to control most legislation, foreign relations, taxation, elect a king and rebel against him?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2012/April. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Szlachta's privileges.

Wikipedia

Poland Mid‑importance

	Poland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Poland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PolandWikipedia:WikiProject PolandTemplate:WikiProject PolandPoland articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Law Low‑importance

	Law portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field and the subjects encompassed by it.LawWikipedia:WikiProject LawTemplate:WikiProject Lawlaw articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Military history: European / Polish

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	European military history task force
	Polish military history task force

Significance

Norman Davies notes that the empowerment of szlachta can be seen as the precursor to the parlimentary, democratic ideals of Great Britain and the United States." I can't see how this could be an accurate precis of Norman Davies' summary! I have substituted

The empowerment of the szlachta and the incremental limitation of monarchic power in Poland can be seen as parallel to the guarantees made to the barons in Magna Carta, the precursor to the parliamentary ideals of Great Britain and the United States, within which genuine democracy has evolved. In contrast with the centralizing of power during the 15th century by the so-called "New Monarchs" of Western Europe, the empowerment of the szlachta can be interpreted as a centripetal movement, to localized aristocratic power and a weak central state, which "had become merely an institution stripped of all substance", as Fernand Braudel remarked.<ref>Braudel, ''Civilization & Capitalism: The Perspective of the World'', 1984:54.</ref>.

Is there any disagreement that this is the mainstream assessment? --Wetman (talk) 17:42, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It seems fine, but I don't see what was wrong with the Davies summary. Why do you think it was wrong? I don't have the book with me ATM to verify it, but I'd prefer for this to be kept unless it is shown to be incorrect. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 21:04, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Democracy"?

The Statue of Warta (1423) declared that all nobles are equal. This must be the basis for the odd statements "...empowerment of the sejmiks marked the beginning of the Polish nobles' democracy (seeGolden Liberty)" and "The year 1505 marked another milestone in the development of the nobles' democracy, as Aleksander Jagiellończyk signed a privilege burying the Mielnik one, the constitution of the principle of nihil novi". The "nobles' democracy"? A "democracy" that introduced serfdom is an odd "democracy" in Western contexts. Liberty from royal control is a liberty only in the medieval sense of the word, that of a privilege.--Wetman (talk) 17:54, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what you are getting at, but democracy and serfdom is no different then democracy and slavery, something US practiced for close to a century. Add another century for the enfranchisement of women. PS. See also history of democracy - it did not begin or belong solely to "the West".--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 20:57, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions

G'day, I've finished copy editing the article now. Sorry it took so long. I had originally been going to assess it for B class, but probably can't now due to the number of edits I've done. I have a couple of suggestions for possible improvements:

expand the lead a little more;
incorporate the single sentence Genesis section either into the lead, or the Development section. (Either that or expand that section into a full paragraph of two or three sentences).

Anyway, good work so far. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:22, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming to "...in Poland and Lithuania"

The current title of the article is incorrect and also not impartial as per Wikipedia policy. I encourage administrators to rename. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.57.254.95 (talk) 12:05, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]