Talk:Syriac-Aramaic identity: Difference between revisions
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== Merging article into Western Syriacs == |
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==Title== |
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What about merging this article into the article [[Western Syriacs]], and then moving the article [[Western Syriacs]] into the article [[Syriac-Aramean people]]. All three articles is threatning the same object, and article Western Syriacs is very uneccessary. [[User:VegardNorman|VegardNorman]] ([[User talk:VegardNorman|talk]]) 12:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC) |
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"Aramaeanism" does not seem to be in use as a term. |
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{{find|Aramaeanism}}. --[[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 10:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC) |
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:Yes, I'm aware of this. What should we call it? I couldn't come up with a better name. — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 12:43 12 Sept, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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the article has no notable content. it is cobbled together from links to random online discussions, plus the baroque opinions of one crackpot journalist, Megalommatis. It is not clear that the topic the article alleges to address even exists outside the minds of a few cranks. Your version of the article was rabidly biased, shooting strawmen with an intent to make [[Assyrianism]] look more reasonable. There is nothing here that cannot be moved to [[Assyrian naming dispute]]. This "Aramaean nationalism" you keep raging against looks more and more like a conspiracy theory without real backing. "Aramaean" organizations appear to use the name simply as a denomination without any "antiquity frenzy" attached, calling themselves "Aramaean (Syrian)". this site [http://www.aramnaharaim.org/English/ArameansOfMesopotamia.htm] uses "Assyrians" as the name the "Nestorian" sub-group, it doesn't reject it the same way the Assyrianists reject "Aramaean". Megalommatis is a different case I agree. WHat is he, a one-man "Aramaeanist" movement? [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 11:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC) |
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:Are you kidding me, have you even watched [[The Hidden Pearl]]? This is not just Megalommatis. Though he is indeed pushing it a lot, he is not alone in this. And no, my version wasn't at all biased. If you feel that I'm trying to "strawman" this article, feel free to edit into a more "NPOV" version that suits your taste. Just don't get disappointed if you happen to find out how crazy the Aramaeanism supporters actually are. We Western Assyrians have to deal with this on a daily basis. Just look at community sites like http://www.suryoyozone.com/ all Syriacs completely brainwashed by Aramaeanism. Also, mind you, a letter from the Syrian patriarch of Antioch in the 1920's writing a letter, clearly, acknowledging that we are Assyrians.[http://www.hujada.com/gallery/religion/memorandum.jpg] This Aramaeanism began recently, and it's most certainly notable. — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 13:16 12 Sept, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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::How about prof. Sebastian Brock for a reliable source? He's one of the authors who contributed to The Hidden Pearl ... --'''[[User:Benne|Benne]]''' ['bɛnə] <sub>([[User_talk:Benne|talk]])</sub> 11:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC) |
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Exactly, let the East Syriacs (or at least those who are members of the Church of the East) be called Assyrians, which has been practice for a long time. But don't impose it on the West Syriacs. By the way, let me repeat that I am not the one who is trying to impose a new name on an entire group, I am not pushing for Aramaean as a common denominator for all Syriacs, just as the Assyrianists try to do with their name, all I do is try to get acknowledged (1) that Assyrians is ''not'' accepted among all Syriacs, nor among all scholars, (2) that Aramaeans is used by a considerable number of Syriacs, and (3) that the proper English translation of ''Suryoye'' is Syriacs, a name that is used by Aramaean and Assyrian factions, and is therefore the only name acceptable from a [[WP:NPOV|neutral point-of-view]]. Etymological discussions are not relevant here, since ''in practice'', Assyrian and Syriac have different meanings. --'''[[User:Benne|Benne]]''' ['bɛnə] <sub>([[User_talk:Benne|talk]])</sub> 11:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC) |
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:It just so happens that Aramaeanists say that all Assyrians are Aramaeans (I mean, have you actually checked aramnahrin.org?) and that no Assyrian from the Church of the East, call themselves Aramaeans, whereas at the very least, 70% of all Syriacs in the Syrian Orthodox Church, call themselves Assyrians. Sorry, but you lose. After all, http://www.ado-world.org/ consists of West Syriacs. — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 13:26 12 Sept, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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:fwiiw, ''in practice'' "Assyrians" is also common in English, as a synonym of "Syriacs". Unlike "Syriacs", however, "Assyrians" is ambiguous, and may ''also'' refer to the ancient Assyrians (which is the main terminological lever of "Assyrianist" propaganda). The question here is, is there a movement known as "Aramaeanism". I do get the impression that there is, but obviously not of the kind Elias would like to allege (idle Nazism comparisons). Elias is quite obviously some sort of Assyrianist version of Megalommatis. What I would like to know is, who is at the origin of the Aramaean flag, what is the ideology behind it, and what is the proper term for it ("Aramaeanism" with its five google hits was obviously just made up by Elias this morning). --[[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 11:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC) |
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::Dab, it's nice to see that you are trying to sully my credibility. As a Wikipedia admin, you should practise what you preach and follow [[WP:CIVIL]] a little better. I am nothing like Megalommatis. I am just listening to Assyriologists, and other credible sources, like for instance, [http://www.hujada.com/gallery/religion/memorandum.jpg Syrian Orthodox Patriarchs before the 1950's]. There is an Aramaeanism movement, though it exists mostly in the diaspora, most notably, in Sweden ([http://www.suryoyozone.com/ suryoyozone] is Swedish) , Germany and Holland, and to some minor extent, in the US. But in the diaspora, it is not all Syriac Orthodox who adhere to Aramaeanism. In the homeland, there are ''some'' Aramaeanist supporters (a few in Syria and Turkey), but it's not at all that common in the homeland. In Iraq, for instance, no Syriac Orthodox call themselves Aramaeans. Don't be surprised dab, when you read day in and day out about Jesus being of Aramaean blood on these forums by Suryoyo Oromoyo fanatics, you will more and more, notice the resemblance with [[Positive Christianity]] and an [[Aryan race]] Jesus. It's the exact same fanaticism. — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 13:36 12 Sept, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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:::I don't believe in parading around [[WP:CIVIL]] to dodge the actual issue. I speak plainly, but I have no desire to insult you. Behave, and I will not criticize you. Misbehave, and I will call bullshit. If there is an "Aramaeanist" movement, what is it called? All I am asking for is [[WP:RS]]. You just created an article comparing a large fraction of your compatriots with Nazis, and you have the gall to bicker with me about WP:CIVIL? It is tenuous to write articles based on random google results. It is completely untenable to try and write articles with ''no'' google results and ''no'' references in print to make up for them. Elias, if you just want to rant about your opinion, do it on a blog. --[[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 11:43, 12 September 2007 (UTC) |
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::::Obviously, there is an Aramaeanist movement, though it is not nearly as big as the Assyrianist movement (it exists mainly within the Syrian Orthodox Community, and it's far from all Syriac Orthodox adherents who go after Aramaeanism). Have you even checked this: http://www.aramaic-dem.org/English/History/1.htm TEN MILLION ARAMAEANS? And you don't call this bullshit? This is not a blog rant, I believe this is a notable topic that should be documented on Wikipedia. — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 13:52 12 Sept, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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:::::''Det finns idag c.a 10 miljoner araméer i världen. Hälften av dem lever i Mellanöstern.''[http://www.arameiska.se/Historia_kultur/1.htm] — Translation: "There exists approximately 10 million Aramaeans in the world. Half of them live in the Middle East." Bullshit anyone? Benne is a moderate Aramaeanist. These guys, are like, Benne on steroids. — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 13:55 12 Sept, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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I think I figured it out. The term found in use is "Syriac-Aramaic" (not "Aramaean"), and the 'movement' consists of ''distancing'' themselves from Assyrian nationalism. Megalommatis illustrates that there can also be rabid nationalism on the "Aramaean" side, but he appears to be an isolated case. This should either be moved to [[Syriac-Aramaic identity]], or merged with either [[Western Assyrians]] or [[Assyrian naming dispute]]. --[[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 11:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC) |
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:Megalommatis is not alone in being a rabid Aramaeanist. In fact, you haven't even been in [[Södertälje]]. — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 14:23 12 Sept, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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::no I haven't. I do assume you have your counterparts on the Syriac-Aramaic side of the fence, but this is eminently ''unnotable'', unless it can in some way be verified as an institutionalised movement. Otherwise, this is nothing but a flame-war between angry young men. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 13:04, 12 September 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Dab, you don't understand our history. If you were me, you'd be just like me. Don't depict me as the bad guy. You don't understand what's going on within the Syriac communities. I am not the one spreading nationalistic lies. I'm not claiming there are 10 million "Aramaeans." Believe me, take my word on it, all of these Oromoyo fanatics are even worse than Megalommatis. They even publish his crap for crying out loud. That's why I don't believe one word of what they say. As for institutions, is not the Aramaic Democratic Organisation in Lebanon enough? Really, this is a movement. It's just a minority within its own community. They have [[Suryoyo Sat]], for instance, which is an Aramaeanist propaganda channel. But that's basically it. — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 15:15 12 Sept, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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on Wikipedia, you are definitely the bad guy, because you disrespect NPOV. That is no judgement of whether you are "good" or "bad" in real life, and frankly, I do not feel the urge to even consider the question. Sheesh, man, you started an article about the Syriacs who do not like to be associated with Assyrian nationalism, and now you are calling for sources that they even exist? I don't know if "some" or "most" Western Assyrians don't care about Assyrianism. It transpires that the "fanaticism" you denounce is simply lack of enthusiasm for your preferred brand of nationalism. I really couldn't care less what the Syriacs call themselves, I am simply trying to prevent you from spreading your ideology as fact. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 13:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC) |
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:The irony here is, that I am actually NPOV. It may not seem like it, but I call a spade a spade. Which makes me seem like I have NPOV issues, but I don't. I know it seems like I'm some sort of "extremist" to you, but believe me, I am not the one making up this nonsense of "Aramaeans" etcetera. I am completely NPOV, and I have decided, after reading on about our history, with the immense amount of evidence available, that we are Assyrians. Most Western Syriacs, are into Assyrian nationalism. It's a minority of Western Syriacs who believe they are "Aramaeans," and that's because of a mistranslation in the [[Septuagint]] translation of the Bible, where Aram is mistranslated into Syria (because the Greeks began calling it Syria because of its Assyrian demographics, as in Herodotus 7.63). Even in Södertälje, where most of the Oromoyo fanatics exist, it's like, 30% Syriac Orthodox Christians who reject Aramaeanism. In [[Gothenburg]], 90% of all Syriac Orthodox Christians, are Assyrian nationalists. Even their Syriac Orthodox priests call themselves Assyrians. — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 15:50 12 Sept, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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''I am simply trying to prevent you from spreading your ideology as fact.'' — I'm not representing an ideology, I'm just trying to be historically accurate about our ancestry, which is, Assyrian. If you truly believe the Chaldean Catholics are the direct descendants of the Chaldean dynasty, then you obviously haven't studied history. — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 15:55 12 Sept, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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:you still fail to recognize that "ancestry" has nothing to do with it? It is ''meaningless'' to say that you are or are not descended from "the Assyrians". Really, it's a nationalist mysticist fallacy, nothing more and nothing less. We can discuss the notion at [[Assyrianism]], but you really need to stop handing the meme around as if it had any objective value. You are free to feel all Assyrian, all day long, but pray do so privately, don't take it out on Wikipedia. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 16:40, 12 September 2007 (UTC) |
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:Exactly from which group of people do you think Syriac Orthodox Christians, and Assyrian Church of the East Christians descend from? I mean, it's obviously forbidden in your world to claim that we are from the ancient Assyrians. The notion that you are neutral is a joke. — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 19:11 12 Sept, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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==Chaldeans do identify as Assyrians== |
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Dab, don't take what's published [http://www.friesian.com/notes/note-n.htm here] as the absolute truth. Most Chaldeans identify as Assyrians. Though the same issues as found in the Syriac Orthodox community with Aramaeanism exists in the Chaldean Catholic community, it's not nearly as much as in the Syriac Orthodox Community. In the homeland, all Chaldean Catholics identify as Assyrians. This only exists in the diaspora, where it's more notable that Chaldeans and Syriacs say they aren't Assyrians. But in the diaspora, they are not the only voice, and certainly not the majority. For instance, [[Rosie Malek-Yonan]], a very prominent Assyrian from Iran, is a Chaldean Catholic. [http://www.khoyada.com/news/news12012007-1.htm Here you can see Chaldean Catholics in Iraq waving the Assyrian flag.] — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 15:50 12 Sept, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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:your fallacy appears to be that just because you hate Syriac-Aramaic identity, you suppose anyone identifying as Aramaic must necessarily hate Assyrian identity. As Benne points out above, this isn't the case at all. "Syriac-Aramaic" people do appear to recognize that there is an "Assyrian" sub-group among the Syriacs, peace to them, and I suppose they won't have a problem with the fact they also have a flag. What they object to is that the "Assyrians" try to prescribe how they may and may not self-identify. Apart from Megalommatis, you consistently fail to point to any "fanaticism" on the Aramaic side. They just want to be left alone and free to identify as whatever the hell they please -- hardly a "fanatical" position of you ask me. --[[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 16:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC) |
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::That's bullshit. They are fanatics, claiming that we are not Assyrians, etc. And FOR YOUR INFORMATION, it's not like it's 100% Syriac Orthodox Christians who say they are "Aramaeans." They are all bitterly divided in the diaspora, and a majority of them identify as Assyrians. You know nothing about this subject, you shouldn't talk like you're some kind of expert. — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 19:11 12 Sept, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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:::just saying "bullshit" doesn't make it so. The burden of proof lies entirely on you. You are so obviously biased that nobody will take your word for anything. Cite reliable sources (and ''don't'' sidetrack this into another discussion of genetics, etymology or ancient history. Stay on-topic and discuss contemporary political movements and opinions. I honestly don't care two hoots who you are descended from. Have I told you before to cite reliable sources?). --[[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 17:27, 12 September 2007 (UTC) |
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You perhaps shouldn't portray these Aramaeanists as "victims" of Assyrian nationalism. What kind of sources do you want me to cite? Obviously, nothing is good enough for you. There's a naming dispute. You seem to think that all members of the Syriac Orthodox Church believe they are descended from the Aramaeans; that's not the case at all. You seem to think that all members from the Chaldean Catholic Church identify as Neo-Babylonians. That's not the case at all. Yes, there exists a significant proportion in the diaspora, in both the Chaldean Catholic Church and Syriac Orthodox Church, who reject the Assyrian identity. They are not the only voice in their own Churches. Most Syriacs in the diaspora who identify as Assyrians, consist of members from both the Chaldean Catholic Church and Syriac Orthodox Church. And by the way, your conception of it, portraying these Aramaeanists as innocent victims of Assyrian nationalism, is clearly bullshit if you know anything about this subject. It's not members of the [[Assyrian Church of the East]] who claim that Syriac Orthodox and Chaldean Catholics are Assyrians. Most of them are in Iraq and couldn't care less; they all identify as Assyrians and they're content with it. It's in the diaspora, a major faction of both Chaldean Catholics and Syriac Orthodox, who identify as Assyrians. The Aramaeanists, well, look at them, they have Megalommatis and Dr. Assad. You go ahead and read their articles and you come to your own conclusion. — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 19:48 12 Sept, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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:you said it. let readers come to their own conclusion. Stop rubbing your opinion into their faces. Present the facts, with references, and avoid putting your preferred spin on them: why do you find this so hard? All we have to do is decide on ''notability''. I'm not sure if Megalommatis has any notability (you seem to parade him around as a cheap way to discredit a position you dislike), but if he does, let people judge for themselves that he is, in fact, a joke. --[[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 09:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC) |
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::Dab, the reason why I created this article, is because I believe, once it reaches a featured article status level, it will bring a lot of clarity to the [[Assyrian naming dispute]]. But you have to understand, though this is part of the Assyrian naming dispute, it's a unique phenomenon in its own right. It is not only Megalommatis involved in this, though he is taking advantage of the naming dispute with his crackpot theories, in order to further keep us separated; it's simple [[divide and rule]] tactics. But there are even Syriacs, like for instance "Dr. Assad" (another crackpot moron) who claims that they are Aramaeans. As for the fresian article, that is not an objective source on this matter. It's not at all so, that we are trying to impose an Assyrian identity on these "Chaldeans" and "Aramaeans." In fact, it's the other way around. In the homelands, virtually everyone of Syriac Orthodox and Chaldean Catholic membership see themselves as Assyrians (Suraya/Suroyo). This is mostly limited to the diaspora. For instance, you can see [http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Image:Assyrianewyearturadbin.jpg here] Assyrians in [[Tur Abdin]] dressed in traditional Assyrian clothes, celebrating the Assyrian new year. In the diaspora, we have fanatics much worse than Benne, trying to impose an Aramaean identity on all Syriacs in Tur Abdin.[http://www.midyatcity.com/articles.htm] If you truly are this neutral editor you say you are, then you should rid Wikipedia of Aramaeanism, because it's most certainly the identity with grave NPOV issues. — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 15:51 13 Sept, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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:::it has long become clear that ''you'' are the editor with NPOV issues around here. Benne has his pov, of course, but at least he can take a step back and discuss it reasonably. I am not on "his side" at all, but it is painfully clear that you are the problem user, not him. --[[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 12:30, 16 September 2007 (UTC) |
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==Dr Megalommatis== |
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Guys, there has been a very serious complaint to the Foundation about the section of this article about Dr Megalommatis and so I have removed it. The complaint is highly credible and basically contests everything that was written about him in this article, including the assertions about his beliefs concerning Aramaeanism, the description of him as a "publicist" and his place of residence. At this point I would really strongly recommend that no one add that material back in (and especially not unless you are able to provide very high quality [[WP:V|verifiable]], [[WP:RS|reliable]] third party, independent sources per [[WP:BLP]]). [[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]] 22:56, 18 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:This is very interesting. It would be very nice if you could tell me what kind of complaints had been received? I won't add his stuff back, at least not for now. By the way, what "Foundation" are you representing? — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 19:09 25 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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::The foundation is the Wikimedia Foundation which is the owner of Wikipedia. The complaint was that this article misrepresents his views and opinions. [[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]] 02:48, 26 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:::I think he does an excellent job of misrepresenting himself with his crackpot theories. May I hear some specific examples of what was being represented? I mean, it's not like it wasn't sourced to actual stuff he has written. Also, if you look at these Aramaeanist sites, you will see that he is published a lot on those sites. — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 09:51 26 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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::::I think you should be very careful about defaming living people with comments like that. Secondly, the section was referenced to primary material, i.e. his articles, which were then interpreted by whoever wrote it. If you're wanting to add something like that back in you're going to need to find extremely [[WP:RS|reliable]] [[WP:V|verifiable]] sources, rather than interpreting his words yourself. The assertion is that his material is grossly misinterpreted and that he does not, in fact, believe what was being attributed to him. If you want to know more precisely what he denounces, I suggest you write to him yourself and ask him; his email address is freely available on the internet. [[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]] 08:16, 26 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::I don't think you understand, it was cited, to actual stuff he has written, from [[WP:RS]] sources. He was not being misrepresented, he has actually written this kind of stuff. And I am not defaming him, he is defaming himself with his theories. He is attacking an entire ethnic group's identity, he is not an honest person. ''The assertion is that his material is grossly misinterpreted and that he does not, in fact, believe what was being attributed to him.'' — Then he is blatantly lying in hindsight. Have you even read his articles? — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 10:41 26 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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::::::That's my point. You (or whoever wrote it) are reading his material and then interpreting it. And he says you're interpreting it incorrectly and I think the complaint is reasonable. I mean, even the description of him as a "[[publicist]]" would seem to be blatantly false. However, if you wish to follow it up I suggest that you email him; I am certain he would like to hear from you if you are the person who wrote this material. [[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]] 15:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::::First of all, I did not add "publicist" as his description; Dbachmann did. Second of all, if you seriously believe that Megalommatis is a, and I quote: ''Orientalist, Assyriologist, Egyptologist, Iranologist, Islamologist, Historian, and Political Scientist'', then he sure has you fooled. I didn't interpret anything, I cited what he wrote. He is actively spreading false propaganda, and you are, without knowing better, one way or the other supporting him. I don't have his email. I would also like to read the complaint you received from him. — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 18:03 26 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
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:::::::::The email was a private email sent to the foundation and I am not prepared to share it with you. If you continue making derogatory comments about the man you are going to find your account blocked. [[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]] 02:17, 27 October 2007 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 12:55, 2 March 2008
Merging article into Western Syriacs
What about merging this article into the article Western Syriacs, and then moving the article Western Syriacs into the article Syriac-Aramean people. All three articles is threatning the same object, and article Western Syriacs is very uneccessary. VegardNorman (talk) 12:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)