Talk:Sidecar World Championship

Winners' list

Added the list of World Champions Alcatrazhack 12:15, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Added the rules change history between 1979 to 1981. I consider this is important because the period 1977-1981 was the time when the racing sidecar changed from a road-going based outfit to the modern monocoque worm.

Notes

Also added a notes section. Alcatrazhack 21:04, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Retain previous material

The only part of the original article that still remains here is in part of the "today" section. Alcatrazhack 21:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Article name

If this racing series is called "Superside FIM Sidecar World Championship", why is the article called "Superside"? Is it the same as Superbike, which are used in many events, or is it a trademark name like IndyCar? --NaBUru38 (talk) 20:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Superside is still used as a promotion term by the FIM.Alcatrazhack (talk) 19:33, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Unsourced tag and disputed section

I have added 'Unsourced' general tag and 'disputed section'. The whole article needs reliable sources. I am surprised that it's not already been tagged by those regular editors who act as moderators. The 'transition section' is misleading, starting as "Prior to 1977, the racing sidecars were similar to road going sidecars."

This section is inaccurate, simplistic and confusing - it should read "Prior to 1960s", as it pays no attention to the transition from 1950s solo motorcycle with sidecars attached outfits, through the semi-kneeler, the lowered frames and shortened forks, to the full kneelers and semi-sitters with leading-link forks of the early 1960s onwards.

There were many deveplopments concerning chassis design and variation, front and rear suspension, engine types and placement, but were hampered by the tyre diameter/width and tyre technology of the time (as were solos with increasing power outputs, particularly the Hailwood Hondas)

Those responsible for this article must have based it on something but the initial source is either lacking itself or has been disregarded. If they're going to include the full results tables the descriptive should be included. 62.253.80.7 (talk) 01:00, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

That part of article was written by me, based on George O'Dell's book, and personal studies of a 30 years personal collections of "Motocourse". One can expand all the development from 1949 until now, but the middle point is 1977. Perhaps a better way to describe the difference is that prior to 1977, championships were won by sidecars that are frame type, while starting in 1981 championships were won by riveted monocoque type. In between we have situations that both type won championships due to back and forth rule changes.

The transition of semi-kneeler to full kneelers are hard to distinguish. Some champions prefer semi-kneeler while others were already winning using full kneelers. Max Deubel was the last champion to use a semi-kneeler, although it is hard to define what is a semi-kneeler, what is a full kneeler.

From 1949 to around 1952 the machines are true sidecars, from 1953 (the last of the Nortons and the early BMWs) the frames were merged, but if you unhooked the frames, the motorcycles could still run on their own. The FIM conveniently forgot to apply the fairing rule on sidecars, thus encouraging develop a single fairing for the entire outfit, which easily lead to merging of the frames. Starting from 1960s the sidecar were lowered in order to become semi or full kneelers, at this point it was impossible to separate the outfit. The BMW engine was also a big reason why the outfit became lower and lower. Scheidegger won with a Rudi Kurth built BMW outfit that practical had him laying flat, so it was beyond full kneelers. It was also around this time that the forks were drastically shortened.

The era from 1981 until today the sidecars are pretty much the same. Louis Christian once wrote me that every year there were some improvement. But the key to victories are mostly down to engine power. In 1994, Biland's machine nearly equaled the same time as a 500cc in Laguna Seca by hundreds of a second.

You are more than welcome to write the two eras of 1950, the two eras of 1960 up until 1974, then 1975-1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, and then 1981 until today. These are the major eras. I chose 1977 because it was the easiest for a layman to understand. To explain parallelogram front suspension on a 1985 Seymaz versus a later wishbone front suspension on a late 1990s LCR we will need an entire different article. The technical details can be found from "Motocourse" from 1982 to 1999. Also the evolution of tires, and engines, all from each Motocourse book, which lists every single engine used, and their evolutions. Modern sidecar front tires were originally borrowed from the front tyres of Tyrrell's 6 wheelers by Rudy Kurth, and put on the LCR. This was a time when the rules were changing back and forth, and Louis Christian could not figure out what to use as a front tyre, and Kurth, thanks to Ken Tyrell, solved the problem.

Steve Webster's book is helpful, but is only relevant from early 80s to 90s. It does not really provide any technical matters, but just personal recollections of events, testings, and other personalities, especially Biland. There are some basic technical details, such as what a Krauser and what an ADM really were. (Yamaha engine with Honda parts). Alcatrazhack (talk) 10:56, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Added Historic Racing 1949 to 1976 heading with 'Empty Section' tag

I tagged this article as needing a new section for Historic racing 1949—1976 to allow for expansion of the ignored historic period. It's ridiculous to have an article starting at 1949 but with prose singularly covering 1977 onwards - because that's how they are now.

18 months on from the above message relating to the ignoring of the first 28 years and adding unsourced banner tag, there are no developments. I can't write this missing section myself adequately (I don't like leaving poor stubs) - not enough knowledge, sources and - crucially - not enough time, at least for this year. Anyone interested in historic pics of solos and chairs at Roy Hesketh Circuit, click here--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 20:59, 3 March 2015 (UTC) O'Dell's work is the only book that I know of that covers racing before 1978.Alcatrazhack (talk) 19:00, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

I may do it, give me some time. But Motocourse does not cover racing before 1976, so O'dell's work will be heavily relied uponAlcatrazhack (talk) 16:34, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

OK, thanks, I don't actually know what Motocourse is, apart from they make big money on ebay. I am not contributing much prose to Wikipedia at the moment, just helping out with Isle of Man and TT races, but still doing Watchlist and researching for other projects. I have continued to 'think about it' myself, and I recently looked at the F2 specs for the 600cc outfits used for the TT races. I have established a citation for the first kneeler - news to me although I do recognise the builder's name, (1959 I think) - can't remember where but is *somewhere in the house*!--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 17:03, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Euphemised article needs balance.

For balance, the article could use a few words on the fatality rates. Allegedly sidecar racing is more dangerous than space travel and extreme depth shipwreck diving combined and Manx TT has seen an almost endless list of sidecar deaths over the decades. Especially the pax who are unsecured and easily get thrown from the vehicle. 82.131.157.104 (talk) 12:09, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Euphemised? As it says on the tickets, risk is an integral part of any motorsport activity, and like other motorsports, while there have been years when the accident rate has been bad or good in sidecar racing, even a brief look at these incomplete lists - Rider deaths in motorcycle racing and Rider deaths in British motorcycle racing series does not appear to show any wholly disproportionate rates for sidecars. Particularly if you consider that no circuit has ever considered safety measures soley from the perspective of sidecar racers. In the absence of any statistics whatsoever, I'd guess that almost all forms of motorsport could be said to be more dangerous than space travel and extreme depth shipwreck diving combined, although the numbers participating in either of those two activities would make any attempt at genuine statistical comparison meaningless. I'd also guess you'd be slightly safer in an accident at the Manx in an outfit, because for any given spot on the track, the sidecar speed is likely to be lower than the solos.Mighty Antar (talk) 13:36, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

F1 and F2 categories

F1 seems to be the top category (like Formula 1)

There is (or was, at least in 2016) F2 Trophy category (lower category sidecar competition). Setenzatsu (talk) 23:32, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Wins stats

It would be good to add most wins by driver, most wins by pasenger and most wins by driver-passenger teams. 185.18.60.191 (talk) 04:11, 15 November 2019 (UTC)