Jump to content

Talk:Sexual violence in the Russian invasion of Ukraine

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Children and elderly" section

[edit]

"In another village in the same region, Russian soldiers gang-raped a 56-year-old woman after robbing her. Later the Russians tortured and murdered her husband."

I wouldn't characterize a 56-year-old woman as elderly. Not sure where to move this sentence. Mooonswimmer 00:25, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 March 2024

[edit]

Per AfD, please add the following content in the section #Prominent_cases_in_the_media

In September 2022, two fighters of the Donetsk People's Republic were allegedly raped by allied Chechen Kadyrovite soldiers in the village of Berestove. [1][2] The perpetrators also allegedly threatened other service people who attempted to protect the victims.[3] Abubakar Yangulbaev, a human rights activist, confirmed the authenticity of the related video.[4]

Or something like this. Thanks.  — 魔琴 (Zauber Violino) [ talk contribs ] 14:07, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Кадирівці гвалтують мобілізованих бійців з так званої «ДНР» — Високий Замок" [Kadyrov soldiers rape mobilized fighters from the so-called "DNR"]. wz.lviv.ua (in Ukrainian). 2022-09-27. Retrieved 2023-06-21.
  2. ^ Krasnolutska, Olesya (January 4, 2023). "Грабіж та зґвалтування солдатів. Що відбувається в армії РФСЮЖЕТ" [Robbery and rape of soldiers. What is happening in the army of the Russian Federation?] (in Ukrainian). Retrieved June 22, 2023.
  3. ^ "Чеченський правозахисник розповів, що кадирівці зґвалтували двох "мобілізованих" на окупованій Донеччині чоловіків | ZMINA". zmina.info (in Ukrainian). 2022-09-28. Retrieved 2023-06-21.
  4. ^ "В телеграме выложили жалобу жен и матерей мобилизованных жителей ДНР. Они заявили, что их родственников якобы публично изнасиловали военные из Чечни" [A complaint from the wives and mothers of mobilized residents of the DPR was posted on Telegram. They stated that their relatives were allegedly publicly raped by Chechen soldiers]. Meduza (in Russian). September 27, 2022. Retrieved 2023-06-21.
 Done ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 02:48, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Information war

[edit]

All the quotes given from sources, allegedly "evidence" does not prove anything. It's a lie and nonsense. All this is propaganda to attract the attention of the public and other countries to attract resources and money. I didn't think it would go that far... even Wikipedia created an article about this nonsense... 91.245.149.61 (talk) 07:20, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of sources on the subject

[edit]
  • Conflict-related sexual violence - Report of the Secretary-General (S/2023/413) of 22 June 2023. At para. 3 and 68 it deals with Ukraine and states that international agencies have documented and reported sexual violence as a form of torture and inhumane treatment against civilians and prisoners of war summarising the findings of the following missions: In 2022, the human rights monitoring mission in Ukraine documented 125 cases of conflict-related sexual violence (not covered in the article); The Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine also investigated sexual violence crimes, reporting that the victims of rape ranged between 4 and over 80 years of age (already covered in the article); The human rights monitoring mission in Ukraine referred to 24 reported cases of forced stripping, nudity and threats of sexual violence were committed by Ukrainian armed forces,2 law enforcement personnel and civilians or members of territorial defence units (not covered in the article).
  • From Trauma to Tactics: Strategic Calculations of Sexual Violence in Ukraine, by the Leiden Security and Global Affairs Blog, which is part of the Institute of Security and Global Affairs (ISGA) of Leiden University (15 November 2023). The report explores how Russian military leadership exploits the knowledge that their troops perpetrate sexual violence in their strategic thinking, claims that it is likely that commanders strategically exploit sexual violence to consolidate their position of power, provides evidence of this but acknowledges that data currently does not allow to conclude that sexual violence is adopted as an explicit larger strategy.

Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

data currently does not allow to conclude that sexual violence is adopted as an explicit larger strategy is crucial. Stating in wikivoice that rape is used as a weapon of war is not appropriate. JDiala (talk) 16:04, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weapon of war?

[edit]

It is stated in the lead that sexual violence is used as a "weapon of war." But the evidentiary basis for this is lacking. There is just the claim made by the OSCE (why would they be a reliable source for this?), and a claim by Pramila Patten, who is prima facie more reliable but in her case the claim was just made informally in an interview with a journalist rather than (say) a formally published UN investigation, which is what I would expect. There's really no high-quality evidence here. These are low-quality sources for such a strong claim. In light of this, I think the claim that it is used as a "weapon of war" should be removed from the lead or at least significantly qualified/not stated in wikivoice.

UPDATE: In fact, I've just noticed that towards the bottom of the article there is a more detailed bibliography of allegations of rape as a weapon of war ("Sources related to mass rape and rape as a weapon of war or military strategy "). Still, even here, the quality is lacking. "British lawmaker", "Ukrainian official", etc. are awful sources. In several other cases, the sources provided do not substantiate the "weapon of war" claim implied by the section title. What I would expect for such a strong claim is say high-quality legal scholarship or independent formal reports by mainstream third-party organizations giving detailed explanations of how alleged Russian acts of rape constitute a weapon of war. Short of that, I am concerned this could just be parroting Ukrainian propaganda.

I think all of these claims should be re-assessed. Evidentiary basis is very dubious here. I'm also going to remove "mass rape" from the lead (and the section title) since the adjective "mass" isn't used by RS so this is OR. JDiala (talk) 17:08, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking on the "rape as weapon", yes, that is what RS explicitly say [1],[2],[3],[4],[5],[6] or at least imply [7]. As about mass rapes, yes, that is also according to RS, for example [8]. One can find a lot more sources. My very best wishes (talk) 14:47, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These are poor sources and most of them do not say what you claim they do, as I mentioned.
  • Your first source cites a UN report here claiming that Russian soldiers are using rape as a "military strategy." However, the report makes no such claim. The pdf of the English language report is available and I was not able to find the verbatim term "military strategy", indicating this may just be a misrepresentation of the primary report.
  • The second source, from Kyiv Independent, only cites a claim by a Ukrainian UN envoy, which is not a reliable source.
  • The third source from CNN only states that "survivors say", not stating that it itself thinks. Within the article itself, "their stories capture what prosecutors describe as Russia’s systematic and continuing use of sexual violence" again attributing the claim to prosecuters.
  • The fourth source clearly uses qualifiers like "reportedly", "suggest", "may", indicating it regards these as allegations.
  • The source from The Guardian is irrelevant, which you yourself understand ("at least imply"). Please do not engage in OR, thanks. JDiala (talk) 20:47, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am sorry to disagree, but all these sources qualify as RS and do say about using rape as a weapon of war in Ukraine. Contrary to what you say, this includes even the article in The Guardian. It says: "Rape has been used as a weapon of war in conflicts worldwide, but holding people to account for it is rare. It is difficult to find the perpetrators and to prove there were orders by someone in command. In Ukraine, survivors face a long road to justice. ..." (and so on) My very best wishes (talk) 16:25, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"poor sources" by Your standard. YBSOne (talk) 17:03, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've articulated clear reasons for my position. JDiala (talk) 18:35, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, what can be more clear than this? It was published everywhere [9]. Need something more recent? No problem [10]. My very best wishes (talk) 18:20, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The quote you cited from The Guardian does not say explicitly that Russia is using rape as a weapon of war. This is just a case of incorrect reading comprehension. This is bad, sorry. The ABC News source is better as it cites an actual expert (Clara Sandoval) but this is just a single person. For such a strong claim I would expect nothing short of a widespread, unequivocal consensus. Such a consensus does not exist. Indeed, as pointed out in discussion above, "data currently does not allow to conclude that sexual violence is adopted as an explicit larger strategy" in this source. JDiala (talk) 18:35, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What you cited is a blog. Yes, perhaps there is no consensus in published sources about it, but it is not required for including the claim. It is enough that a significant number of mainstream RS make a claim. This is nothing special. My very best wishes (talk) 00:45, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's a scholarly blog from a university by actual professionals, which is a high-quality source. This demonstrates that the claim is a contentious. A contentious claim like this requires more significant evidence of consensus that the opinion of a single scholar, see WP:RS, WP:DUE and WP:FRINGE. You have so far only demonstrated a single source for this claim, namely that of scholar Clara Sandoval. JDiala (talk) 15:14, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, this is actually 8 RS in this thread making such claim. The links are provided. WP:BURDEN has been satisfied. But it has been satisfied long time ago because we have a lot of references in such section. As about your blog, please see WP:BLOG. My very best wishes (talk) 15:59, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They're not making the claim which I've already addressed and you haven't engaged with. WP:BLOG is clear that expert blogs are considered fine. This is an expert blog. I don't think this disagreement will be resolved so I'd be happy to create an additional RfC for this too considering we have another person who seems to have agreed me in a past discussion (Gitz). The current tone of the article strikes me as POV across the board and basically undermines the integrity of the project. JDiala (talk) 21:48, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking on your posting at the top of this thread, I can explain this differently. Page Rape as a weapon of war is currently renamed as simply Wartime sexual violence. This reflects consensus and reality: "Rape as a weapon of war" is simply a strong expression to describe the wartime sexual violence, and that is the subject of this entire page. My very best wishes (talk) 01:22, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk:Sexual_violence_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&oldid=1265050805"