Talk:Sexual and gender-based violence in the 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel/Archive 5

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Lack of qualifier

The opening paragraph is still misleading due to the lack of a qualifier in the opening sentence. Rape during the Bosnian War saw sexual violence being committed against at least 10,000 to 50,000 women; which the opening sentence accurately qualifies it as a policy of "mass systematic violence." Meanwhile, the opening sentence here mentions "Israeli women and girls," which begs the natural question of how many? Was it systematic? Makeandtoss (talk) 08:31, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

$64,000 questions. The short answer to "how many" seems to be that nobody knows or has counted (for good and not-so-good reasons) and the short answer to 'systematic?' seems to be no evidence that it was, but still disputed. Pincrete (talk) 08:40, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

The UN report mentions three if I am not mistaken. If the scale and nature is disputed then that should be reflected in the opening sentence. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:49, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I added an inline tag for the lack of quantification. This is a serious long-standing POV issue that has never been addressed, and, it seems, refuses to be addressed. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:25, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

The figure is unclear as @Pincrete noted, but "dozens" at the most is what has been reported by most reliable sources, and is reflected in the second paragraph of the lede citing Israeli police sources. Patten said the same: "But, she added, “I do not have numbers in the report because for me one case is more than enough,” she told reporters. “The first letter that I received from the government of Israel talked about hundreds or thousands of cases of brutal sexual violence perpetrated against men, women and children. I have not found anything like that.”

So imo just put "dozens" in the first sentence of the lede as well and that should resolve it. Raskolnikov.Rev (talk) 09:51, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

When I tried to do that by inserting "some" a few months ago, I was swiftly reverted. So does everyone here agree on adding "dozens" to the opening sentence? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:14, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

"Some" is probably too vague, but I don't see why anyone would object to dozens when that is what has been reported, including by Israeli police as noted in the second paragraph right now.

Also, to avoid needless repetition it might be best to remove the "Israeli police said dozens..." in the second paragraph of the lede if "dozens" is added to the first sentence. Raskolnikov.Rev (talk) 10:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@Raskolnikov.Rev: Can you please add it? We are both supporting this addition and there is no opposition to it. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:29, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't know how best to phrase this, but the fact that we really have no idea how widespread the sexual violence was, nor even how much has been claimed semms a notable feature/oddity in itself. 'Dozens' if used should be attributed in some form IMO.Pincrete (talk) 18:52, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree that it is indeed very odd. The dozens figure is the most solid reliable approximation that has been provided by the Israeli police, specifically Meni Binyamin, the head of the International Crime Investigations Unit as cited in the New York Times in December. NBC News and BBC also went with the dozens figure, citing Israeli police and officials.

Note that these articles are far from perfect, they contain claims about cases of sexual violence/rape/mutilation that were discredited by later reporting, like the Patten report, the AP and Times of London investigations. But for this specific claim they're citing Israeli police and other officials so that's as reliable as you can get as a source for the amount.

So I think the best way to resolve the quantification issue is to have the first sentence as is, then move the sentence from the second paragraph right after it: "Israeli police said dozens of women and some men were raped." And link to the NYT piece as the source for that as it names the specific official giving that figure. That shouldn't be controversial as it's already in the lede in the second paragraph, we're just moving it up.

If there are not objections I'll move ahead with this. Raskolnikov.Rev (talk) 20:44, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Reportedly and civility

First, as far as a person who keeps reverting me here, I would like to refer you and everyone to "civility" in regards to wiki editing. Moreover, no one "owns" this page, and to brazingly and aggressively and even angrily demand people bend to your will "or take it to talk page" is a violation.

Reportedly by defition is (per Oxford): "according to what some say (used to express the speaker's belief that the information given is not necessarily true). "he was in El Salvador, reportedly on his way to Texas""

The rapes on October 7th happened, whether one wants to accept it or not. It is only "controversial" to people engaging in rape denialism. "Reportedly" either should be removed, OR re-added to Sexual and gender-based violence against Palestinians during the Israel–Hamas war, which I will "happily" to do now - "happily" because the same UN reprot that confirmed Hamas were rapists, also confirmed Israeli soldiers committed sex crimes - so it should be BALANCED.

Per the defition of "reportedly," then it should be removed. It absolutely happened per UN and the various other investigations and VICTIMS themselves. Winter queen lizzie (talk) 01:29, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I can also reference dictionary definitions. According to the Cambridge Dictionary, "reportedly" means "according to what many people say" or "according to what is said about something". Hardly an expression of doubt.

The word was added to the Sexual and gender-based violence against Palestinians during the Israel–Hamas war article hours ago by the same editor who reverted you.

Btw, I find the contrast in wording striking. Hamas members are labeled as "rapists" (despite no UN report confirming this) while Israeli soldiers "committed sex crimes".

Anyways, since you offered two alternatives—removing the word here or re-adding it in the other article—and one has been fulfilled, I believe this resolves the issue. - Ïvana (talk) 03:16, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah abd Israelis committed sexual crimes including rape (per UN). And Hamas are rapists, as the UN said explicitly members of Hamas and other Palestinian militants committed sex crimes and gender-based violence and this was not isolated at all. Hope this helps! Thank you fof seeing my point and resolving the issue. :) Winter queen lizzie (talk) 04:15, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

There are no civility issues; All my actions have been civil and in line with ensuring NPOV and respect for community consensus. If we're going to accuse editors of not following Wiki rules, then I can say that you're violating NPOV standards with your edits that are controversial before seeking consensus, which you have done consistently on this and other pages (including reverts of consensus edits). This is a case in point: If you had brought up your issues with "reportedly", I would have explained that it does not mean what you think it means (as Ïvana noted, dictionary definitions vary as the term is used in a variety of contexts, and in this one it clearly just mean "as reported by" the outlets in the references).

Furthermore, I would have done what I did, namely add the same term to the lede of the other page. I was not involved in discussions to remove that, and I don't believe it should be, because again it does not mean anything other than that something has been reported. Both pages are filled with the term being used in that way.

I'm glad the issue is resolved now. In future, if you know an edit is going to be controversial as you knew here because you were aware it led to a discussion on the other page that apparently your position lost (one in which I would have sided with you on if I had been aware of it), kindly seek consensus first before going ahead with it. That's what I always do with edits I know will lead to controversy, again per Wiki rules. That's the best way to ensure civility too as it avoids needless reverts of controversial edits and the potential feelings of conflict that comes with it. Raskolnikov.Rev (talk) 09:36, 20 August 2024 (UTC)