Talk:Coals to Newcastle

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A fact from Coals to Newcastle appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 1 April 2008, and was viewed approximately 6,029 times (disclaimer) (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that American entrepreneur Timothy Dexter defied the popular idiom and actually made a profit when he sold coal to Newcastle?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2008/April.

Wikipedia

Citation Issue

The first citation - for the meaning of this phrase - is to the 'freedictionary'. If you follow the link, and read the small print, you will find that the freedictionary cites this Wikipedia article as their source. So in the end this article is citing itself.

It would probably be a good idea to find a different source. Especially for crucial information such as the definition of the phrase. Gavroche42 11:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Eskimo vs Inuit

With regards to the French idiom, the wikipedia entries on eskimo suggest that the word isn't synonymous to Inuit. Also, there's no citations for the sentence. Andjam (talk) 01:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Added by an anonymous IP. I didn't think much of it, and if you also have concerns, I'm happy to remove it. --DeLarge (talk) 11:03, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The term still makes sense today, if not in Britain...

...but in Australia. The Aussie Newcastle is today the world's largest coal export harbour. The term is still used in Australia, but now referring to the Australian Newcastle instead of the English one as originally intended (and in many cases forgotten). Of course, I have no references to prove this, just personal experience. 52 Pickup (deal) 06:18, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ooh, cheers for that. I went looking for links on the subject, and found this item in the Sydney Morning Herald from '04, and this Britannica article. And here's a Washington Post article describing it exactly as you did, as "the world's largest coal port". I'll do some digging. --DeLarge (talk) 10:06, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Equivalent in other languages

I've been told that there's a phrase with similar meaning which translates as "Carrying Owls to Athens". It's used in at least Greece and Germany. I don't have any references though - this was from German and Greek friends. 217.146.112.205 (talk) 22:32, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Eulen nach Athen tragen", which is the German interwikilink (see sidebar on the article page). I suppose it could be incorporated into the main text as well. --DeLarge (talk) 21:56, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The expression "Vizet hord a Dunába." in Hungarian is so similar that Wikiquote says "English equivalent: It's like bringing coal to Newcastle." https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hungarian_proverbs#V — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.7.175.152 (talk) 05:32, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Move proposal

The common use is Taking coals to Newcastle which is supported by one of the few references that still work. It is my proposal to move this page over re-direct to that title. Velella ^{Velella Talk} 20:44, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved to Coals to Newcastle. --BDD (talk) 18:17, 19 March 2013 (UTC) (non-admin closure)[reply]

Selling coal to Newcastle → Taking coals to Newcastle – Proposed name represents common UK usage of the term and is the only usage supported by existing references in the article. BBC link quotes "coals to Newcastle" [1], whilst the Northern Echo (the local paper for Newcastle) quotes Taking coals to Newcastle [2]. Issue was raised here on 10th February without any dissent Relisted. BDD (talk) 16:41, 12 March 2013 (UTC) Velella ^{Velella Talk} 16:05, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Selling coal to Newcastle is not a correct quote, but describes the meaning of the idiom. Apteva (talk) 19:22, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. It's "to carry coals to Newcastle". See this ngram. Here is the full quote: To carry Coals to Newcastle, that is to do what was done before; or to busy one's self in a needless imployment. (Thomas Fuller, 1661). See also: I should (according to our English Proverb)...but carry Coals to Newcastle. (John Graunt, 1661) Kauffner (talk) 00:00, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- That is true, Carry coals to Newcastle is more commonly used than take coals.[3].Apteva (talk) 00:54, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I agree that is probably the source of the modern saying, but many saying change with time and all the modern use that I have seen in reputable modern sources now say taking coals to Newcastle. I think that we should reflect changing usage in article titles as that is what users search on. Velella ^{Velella Talk} 09:19, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

After playing with the Ngram Viewer some more, it looks like "carrying coals to Newcastle" is the most common version. Kauffner (talk) 00:25, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:COMMONNAME. -- Necrothesp (talk) 18:51, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment There are about as many name suggestions as participants. So which do we want to go with? --BDD (talk) 16:41, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: the version I grew up with (54, Irish, to put that in context) is "carrying coals to N", but if "taking" or "selling" (which I had never seen until this RM) are also common, I'd suggest "Coals to Newcastle" as the article title. Brocach (talk) 20:14, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support for Coals to Newcastle. Conveys all. LCS check (talk) 21:35, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Coals to Newcastle as a reasonable compromise. This opinion supersedes my comments etc above. Velella ^{Velella Talk} 20:51, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This page completely misses the point

You have twisted the the expression "carrying coals to Newcastle" and changed it to "selling" so you can celebrate how wonderful American industrialists are because people in Newcastle buy American coal. The the expression is "carrying" or "taking." I know you changed the title, but the definition in the article still erroneously uses "selling" as its key point.

It is not about attempting an impossible task, selling things or economics. It's about foolishly bringing something to where it is already plentiful. They don't need coals in Newcastle, and carrying them there is a complete waste of effort, because I could have just gone to Newcastle and got coal when I arrived. If my Italian mother-in-law invites me over for supper and I bring meatballs, it's like "carrying coals to Newcastle," because she always prepares many more meatballs than everyone can eat and I have wasted my time making the meatballs I brought (and everyone will have a laugh at my expense because I should have known better). CaperBill (talk) 00:22, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

- Thanks for the correction.  This mischaracterization of "selling coals to Newcastle" (even citing the law of supply and demand) left me completely confused, becasue unless the exporters are operating their own mines, lots of coal was clearly being sold (to the exporting businesses) in Newcastle.  To clarify on your suspected reason for this error, I thing it is just a consequence of the free-market-fundamentalist, "Reason" magazine-reading POV that most of Wikipedia contributors have when dealing with social, plitical or economic matters.199.115.12.254 (talk) 19:09, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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citation 2 or link

Citation 2 credits fitzhugh who was not alive at the time credited. 172.58.89.182 (talk) 03:13, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, it seems to be his grandfather (1650-1701) with the same name. http://ravensworthstory.org/people/owners/fitzhugh-family/fitzhugh-william-the-immigrant/ LordMoff (talk) 18:28, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The saying is as old as Newcastle on Tyne is. St. Jerome says in "AGAINST THE PELAGIANS" (4th century) "I believe I should bring this work to a close, lest I hear the well-known dictum of Horace quoted to me: 'Do not carry coals to New Castle.'" (Horace, Satires 1.10.34.) Quintus Horatius Flaccus lived before Christ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.85.182.159 (talk) 15:21, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Hieronymus used "In silva ne ligma" as well as Horace used "In silvam non ligna feras" which means bringing wood into the forest. It has no connection to Newcastle whatsoever. LordMoff (talk) 18:35, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ancient Version

The Midrash reports a version of the saying used in Ancient Egypt: "Wheat to Ophrayem". Drsruli (talk) 20:31, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]