Talk:Sarkis Torossian

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This article was nominated for deletion on 1 February 2013 (UTC). The result of the discussion was speedy keep.

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Military history: Biography / Middle East / Ottoman / World War I

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Falsification Number 3

(See the other two in Anti-Armenianism article.) So we have the youngest general of modern Turkish history here; who left, according to the sources, the Turkish Army and joined anti-Turkey forces un his 20s (or teens?). I propose we add to the article he was the youngest general of the modern Turkish army. --E4024 (talk) 15:45, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Corrected as "captain" per the same sources provided before my edit. --E4024 (talk) 22:03, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Unreliable sources and the first battleships sunk at the Turkish straits

Editing Ottoman Turkey articles using sources like "Genocide Museum of Armenia" webpage would predictably not give the best results. Therefore claiming that "(General! Torosyan) is considered the first person to sink a British battleship." is quite problematic. Especially so if even the referred unreliable source only says "It appeared that Captain Sarkis Torossian was the first who destroyed a British warship during the Dardanelles/Chanakkale battle in early 1915." (I bolded weasel speech.) FYI, our Gallipoli Campaign and especially the Naval operations in the Dardanelles Campaign articles clearly show that the first warships to be sunk trying to pass the Turkish straits in WWI were sunk by "seamines", not artillery fire. Those mines were laid by the Ottoman minelayer Nusret.

Read as I quote from the latter, more detailed text:

"The British pressed on with the attack. Around 16:00, Inflexible began to withdraw and struck a mine near where Bouvet went down, killing 30 crewmen. The battlecruiser remained afloat and eventually beached on the island of Bozcaada (Tenedos).

Irresistible was the next to be mined. As she began to drift helplessly, the crew were taken off. De Robeck told Ocean to take Irresistible under tow but the water was deemed too shallow to make an approach. Finally at 18:05, Ocean struck a mine which jammed the steering gear leaving her likewise helpless. The abandoned battleships were still floating when the British withdrew. A destroyer commanded by Commodore Roger Keyes returned later to attempt either to tow away or sink the stricken vessels but despite searching for four hours, there was no sign of them."

FYI, "Bouvet", a French warship, was the first ship sunk (by a mine) in the campaign. I did not quote that part not to let you claim "I was talking about British warships. As you may see, the first British ships sunk were also as a result of hitting seamines and not for "The first person sinking them by artillery fire". Now I am waiting for the POV user to correct their edits (and not to tell me "WP is not an RS either" because that article, compiled from reliable sources, has not been written by editors who promote to "General", captains of their POV choice. --E4024 (talk) 22:46, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Writing General instead of Captain is an honest mistake. Besides, we are not talking about the first ship sunk by mines, we are talkimg about the first ship sunk by man. It is believed that he was the first, if not, one of the first, to sink a British ship. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:52, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

According to these two documents (OSMANLI HARP MADALYASININ BELGESİ & ENVER'DEN TOROSYAN'A TEŞEKKÜR...), Torossian's claim is not groundless (but he sank not a battleship but a warship, anyway harp vapuru in not common word in Turkish language). Do you have photographs of original documents ? Takabeg (talk) 11:49, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How (not) to make a good WP

We are using the book "From Dardanelles to Palestine: a true story of five battle fronts of Turkey and her allies and a harem romance" (bolded by me) by Captain Torosyan to write the article about Captain Torosyan. The other two basic sources (Turkish book and Armenian Museum webpage text) have used this autobiography to write on Torosyan. Will we take as a reliable source the memories of a young captain on "five battle fronts"? If we do that, IMO that means we consent to add more petty POV to WP and thus help to destroy it... --E4024 (talk) 10:49, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much for your contributions! I could tell you are very interested in my articles which makes me happy and inspires me to do more. More articles are on their way! Proudbolsahye (talk) 15:39, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am sure that I am not the only person here who has noticed you have an agenda here that I dare call not a very noble one. Look at your own contribution history and you will understand. --E4024 (talk) 21:34, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if I am "insulting Turkishness". Proudbolsahye (talk) 21:36, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Name change

I propose moving the article to Sarkis Torossian. It is how Torossian spelled his name in his own memoir, and how his name is spelled in secondary literature (in English). Let me know if there are any disagreements. JackalLantern (talk) 00:10, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree to your proposal and I think nobody could oppose your proposal. Takabeg (talk) 05:21, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Nobody could oppose?" Please do not speak for others. Other than that, this article has more important problems like POV language (and possibly sock activity) before we come to the name. --E4024 (talk) 09:35, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can you oppose this common name with showing non-Turkish Wikipedia:identifying reliable sources ? I couldn't find "Sarkis Torosyan" in English sources. What's sock activity ? Have you ever read Wikipedia:Assume good faith, Wikipedia:No personal attack ? Takabeg (talk) 09:46, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I might want to add that his grave has one "S" though (See: His grave in Arlington) Proudbolsahye (talk) 05:29, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. But in most of all printed sources which are written in English, Torossian is used. Cf. the name on the grave stone of Nureddin Pasha is Nureddin İbrahim Konyar, but his common name in English sources is Nureddin Pasha. Takabeg (talk) 09:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please describe your problems with the article in more detail, E4024 (and hold the insinuations). JackalLantern (talk) 10:15, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More info on sinking battleship

Is there any more information available on the battleship that he sank? Such as the date/time, name of the ship? What do the British records say about this? --GoorJanssen (talk) 13:20, 9 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The battleship he sank was a HMS E15 of the British Royal Navy. The date of the sinking is on 18 April 1915. I'm sure the memoirs contains more details. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:46, 9 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]