Talk:Royal supporters of England

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Heraldry and vexillology

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as a paragraph

ROYAL SUPPORTERS: Edward III. (Lion and Falcon). Richard II. (Two white Harts). Henry IV. (Lion and Antelope). / (Antelope and Swan). Henry V. (Lion and Antelope). Henry VI. (Two Antelopes argent). / (Lion and Panther). / (Antelope or and Tiger). Edward IV. (Lion or and Bull sable). / (Lion argent and Hart argent). / (Two Lions argent). Edward V. (Lion argent and Hart argent gorged and chained or). Richard III. (Lion or and Boar argent). / (Two Boars argent). Henry VII. (Dragon gules and Greyhound argent collared gules). / (Two Greyhounds argent). / (lion or and Dragon gules). Henry VIII. (Lion or and Dragon gules). / (Dragon gules and Bull sable, - or a Greyhound argent, - or a Cock argent). Edward VI. (Lion or and Dragon gules). Mary I. (Lion or and Dragon gules). / (Lion or and Greyhound argent). / (impaled on Philip of Spain) (Eagle and Lion). Elizabeth I. (Lion or and Dragon or). / (Lion or and Greyhound argent). James I - Elizabeth II. (Lion or and Unicorn argent) ^[1]

It's counter-intuitive to put the primary content in parentheses. Anyway, why have this paragraph if the table is about to repeat it all? —Tamfang (talk) 03:40, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, I was unable to create a simple shallow ‘king = supporter’ text-info-box, for ease of reference in other articles, as to who had what, without searching this article. I also used this section as a temporary ‘text-block,’ until I wrote the ‘Supporters’ history. This opening section will be re-written, when I compose the opening subject-reference. I will remove these parentheses from this temporary section, until it is re-written. NB. RE: ( Edward III. Lion and Falcon. ) Should there be a colon between Edward III and the Lion, or a full stop? Ta Steve. Stephen2nd (talk) 11:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A colon is best. —Tamfang (talk) 04:21, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reference: User:Stephen2nd/Sandbox (f); In 'supporters' section, I need supporters / badges / motto, in separate compartments?. I don't know if the colon/semi-colon/full stops are correct, or whether the 'supporters' should be numbered in parenthesis, or 'stacked,' rather than following each other &c. I am still currently researching who had what badges, and their heraldic terms. Steve. Stephen2nd (talk) 21:31, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've been putting alternate sets of supporters in separate boxes, but not badges and motti, because the latter can be combined in one display but a shield can't have four supporters. (At least, that's how I rationalize it after doing it!) If you're asking whether three columns for supporters+badges+motto are necessary: of course nothing is fixed in stone, but it suits my taste and it saves repeating the keywords.

I hope you don't plan to put each monarch's biography in the table. —Tamfang (talk) 23:19, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Great boxing! In concensus with the 'Explanations,' may I suggest that each house be separated into individual units, so that 4-6 new sections can be inserted in between the units? i.e. Badges / Beasts / Banners / mottoes / origins &c. May I also suggest that the mottoes be listed in the Royal arms section, below their arms, so as to create a new badge-image section? NB: I do think there may be a lot more badges, and I may be able to re-create most of these from commons. Steve Stephen2nd (talk) 17:31, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand the suggestion. Do you mean introduce a row for each House, in the same format as the rows for their members? That's okay with me. —Tamfang (talk) 23:19, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Definite separate houses, with article-texts in between: Heading - Badges, histories of. / House table 1 / Heading - Supporters, histories of. / House table 2 &c. Table headings:
Sec 1, Monarch. sec 2, Badges. sec 3, Gallery. sec 4, Royal Arms.
No monarchs biographies. In sec 3, Gallery: A brief description of badges, supporter and motto, as seen in its table + Images. The article texts, in between each table, would contain the encyclopedic overall history, relevant to the Heading. Steve.Stephen2nd (talk) 00:22, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- This dosen't work out, sorry. Too many items; i.e. 5x houses; 14x monarchs; 35x pairs supporters; 149x badges. I don't think there are any more supporters, but there are many more badges. (Sodacan): No room for text in between separate house, suggest separate articles, with relevant texts on history of badges &c, for each individual house, or monarch. At present there are not enough badge images in Commons to create individual gallerys, in each house. (Tamfang): I've added probably the last of the supporters, for which I have used 'bullets', (which they should all have). I don't know how to add the separate sections, (which they should all have), I see no need whatsoever to change the present Article-table-format. However, I do think a more appropriate name should be agreed. OK? Stephen2nd (talk) 22:07, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

NB: I'm researching dates of usage for the supporters, and which are attributed. Also, the correct order of the badges. Stephen2nd (talk)

Shouldn't this article be called the "Royal Coat of Arms of the Kings of England" or "Armorial of English Monarchs" ? Otherwise there should be a new article called "Royal Badges of England". Because the Royal badges, even more than the supporters, play a much more important role in English history and each and every badge has its own significance and story. Sodacan (talk) 18:37, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree 100%, re-name this "Royal Badges of England," with sections on supporters, origins &c. Steve. Stephen2nd (talk) 20:09, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe "Royal Coat of Arms of English monarchs"? and with equal sections on the different elements? Sodacan (talk) 21:26, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree, this is not about the "coat of Arms" i.e. the shield and its contents per se. It would seem to be about badges, which historicaly preceded, and possibly evolved into supporters; with further reference to mottoes and livery colours. How about - "Royal Badges and Supporters of England" ? Steve. Stephen2nd (talk) 22:45, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I guess that's right, Royal Badges of England is fine with me. Sodacan (talk) 22:52, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've created a new sandbox, (help yourselves) with these aforementioned suggestions User:Stephen2nd/Sandbox (e). Yes? No? something else? suggestions welcomed. Ta Steve Stephen2nd (talk) 18:36, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ The Royal Arms. Charles Hassler. (p8-10) (1980). ISBN: 0904041204.

Explanations

Should there be at least some explanations about the various beast and their origins? such as the White Hart of the Maid of Kent, the Bull of Clarence, the White Lion of Mortimer, the White Greyhound of (Richmond) Beaufort and the Red dragon of Cadwaladr? Sodacan (talk) 17:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, good idea, I'll get right on it, unless you have some existing text which you wish to use?. Can you offer me your opinion as to what these two beasts of Edward III are? Ref. [File:Edward III Trinity.JPG|100px]], are they leopards, lions or what? they are not listed or imaged in my reference books. As I can only find a few individual-supporters, I may use this Ed III image to illustrate the new section. Thanks for your considerations and advice. Steve. Stephen2nd (talk) 18:29, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have some info, I will try and get them in order and see if I can put them in the article. Sodacan (talk) 18:38, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

An excellent Royal Arms, any chance you can separate out the falcon, to use as a badge? Ta Steve. Stephen2nd (talk) 21:48, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will try and do all the badges separately soon. Sodacan (talk) 11:13, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A.C.Fox-Davies. Heraldic Badges.

If anyone is interested in a full list of historical notables and their badges, (A-Z list at end of book), the full text of Heraldic Badges by A.C. Fox-Davies is here (Badges). Cross-referencing these badges, with 'Fairbairns crests', and with the arms and genealogies of these notables and monarchs, is a very interesting scientific study of the origins of heraldry. Stephen2nd (talk) 10:50, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The Royal Arms. Charles Hassler. (p8-10) (1980). ISBN: 0904041204.

[1]